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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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 Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Are there any physical proofs for the existence of God? |
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Here is your original question:
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Can anyone proove this magical being exists? Can anyone offer physical proofs? |
First you brow beat from the beginning by assuming God is not true by using the words "magical being". This implies God is not real and you imply it before you ask the question of people to prove it which indicates you are not sincere in your asking in the first place.
Second, you ask for "Physical proofs" (plural) with out defining what you mean by "physical proofs". So I said yes because I say the Bible and other literary documents are physical proofs that God exists just as statues, writings and other documents proof that Cesar existed. Plus there are about 100 different literary documents that physically exist that refer to Jesus Christ. When examining all of them, as my pastor has done and written about, you can get a very compelling case that He was God and thus does exist. There is more literary evidence for the existence of Jesus than of Julius Cesar. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Besides, this thread in NOT about disproving God exists. It only seeks to find some evidence, psysical or measurable that he/she/it/they exist.
That is all. |
Again you are being vague. By that definition you can't say Washington crossed the Potomac, yet you believe it happened don't you? Is it accurate to say that there is physical evidence that Washington did cross the Potomac because there is literary record of it? If not, then you must conclude that he did not because a literary record is all we have. We have no video or pictures. |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| eruss wrote: | | Quote: |
Besides, this thread in NOT about disproving God exists. It only seeks to find some evidence, psysical or measurable that he/she/it/they exist.
That is all. |
Again you are being vague. By that definition you can't say Washington crossed the Potomac, yet you believe it happened don't you? Is it accurate to say that there is physical evidence that Washington did cross the Potomac because there is literary record of it? If not, then you must conclude that he did not because a literary record is all we have. We have no video or pictures. |
I do not know who Potomac is. I am not an American. You must ask an American that question. Also which Washington you are refering to? Denzel Washington? |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | First you brow beat from the beginning by assuming God is not true by using the words "magical being". This implies God is not real and you imply it before you ask the question of people to prove it which indicates you are not sincere in your asking in the first place. |
Thne proove thjat God is not magical and exists. That IS the topic of this thread. But since you got nothing, you are wailing about the requirement being too restrictive. Boo hoo.
| Quote: | | Second, you ask for "Physical proofs" (plural) with out defining what you mean by "physical proofs". So I said yes because I say the Bible and other literary documents are physical proofs that God exists just as statues, writings and other documents proof that Cesar existed. Plus there are about 100 different literary documents that physically exist that refer to Jesus Christ. When examining all of them, as my pastor has done and written about, you can get a very compelling case that He was God and thus does exist. There is more literary evidence for the existence of Jesus than of Julius Cesar. |
The Bible is not a psysical proof. We know about Cesar, we even have his hand written memoirs and coins bearing his likeness, Roman decrees signed by his hand etc. We know nothing od the kind about God. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I do not know who Potomac is. I am not an American. You must ask an American that question. Also which Washington you are refering to? Denzel Washington? |
Hehehehhee.
George Washington was the first president of the USA. It is said in literature that Washington crossed the Potomac River in a boat. Most Americans believe he did. Do you think you could be convinced if you read the literature? Since there were no cameras or video would you consider that there is no evidence for this event? |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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The Bible is not a physical proof. We know about Cesar, we even have his hand written memoirs and coins bearing his likeness, Roman decrees signed by his hand etc. We know nothing od the kind about God. |
Yes we do have something of that kind. We have Roman documents about Jesus and much more. Like I said, there is more documented evidence for Jesus than there is Cesar. I can find out where you can get a list or a book that documents it all if you like.
There is a well documented case that Jesus was God and therefore did and does exist. You might not like it. You might think the evidence is weak. You might have a dispute as to it's validity but you can not honestly just dismiss it as though it did not exist.
Maybe you just don’t know about it in which case I would be glad to gather some info for you. I went through the same doubting process you did. I said all the same things and made all the same arguments you are making. |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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What is so special about such a mundane event like a crossing a river? Gee, I swim across a much bigger river every summer and I dont consider that anything special. Who cares about an event so mundane as that.
Give me a boat and I`ll cross the Pacific. Thorn Hayervald (sp) did so in the Kon Tiki (sp) using primitive rafts etc. What is so special about Wahington crossing a little river with a good sturdy boat. And how is that relevant to this topic anyway?
Have a nice weekend,
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What is so special about Washingtonn crossing a little river with a good sturdy boat. And how is that relevant to this topic anyway? |
If you would consider the literary evidence as "proof" for Washington crossing the river, or for anything, then you have shown that you do not need to limit your "proof" to the 5 senses to know something. Or do you already concede that fact? |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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First Jesus was a man (if he existed at all). see: askwhy.co.uk
We are talking about God. If you want to talk about a deified human (jesus and his apotheosys) we can start another thread.
But hey lets give you a chance, because you always go about crying I browbeat you.
| Quote: | | Yes we do have something of that kind. We have Roman documents about Jesus and much more. Like I said, there is more documented evidence for Jesus than there is Cesar. I can find out where you can get a list or a book that documents it all if you like. |
Ok, Eruss, lets see it. I mean it. I WANT to believe. Yo usay you have such info. I would like you to share it with us.
| Quote: | | There is a well documented case that Jesus was God and therefore did and does exist |
Here you go again with ASSUMIG what I like and what I want to ``really`` say. If you can back it up with psysical, measurable evidence, I wil accept ANYTHING. Clear now? I WILL ACCEPT it if it is proven. Now we are eagerly awaiting for you to back up that claim.
| Quote: | | You might not like it. |
see above.
| Quote: | | You might think the evidence is weak. |
Lets see it first, then we test it scientifically. How am I supposed to make a judgement on something you didnt present yet? I wait and see. I make no judgements until I see it.
. | Quote: | | You might have a dispute as to it's validity but you can not honestly just dismiss it as though it did not exist. |
Its not about me. If the psysical evidence is not strong there are tests we can subject it to. The same goes for documents, and relics (ever heard of the shroud of tourin fraud?)
| Quote: | | Maybe you just don’t know about it in which case I would be glad to gather some info for you. |
Well, let there be NO doubt in your mind. I do NOT know what evidence you are talking about. So I would be most glad to see it.
| Quote: | | I went through the same doubting process you did. I said all the same things and made all the same arguments you are making. |
Well, you know, all great minds travel the same road.
Peace |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you would consider the literary evidence as "proof" for Washington crossing the river, or for anything, then you have shown that you do not need to limit your "proof" to the 5 senses to know something. Or do you already concede that fact? |
Are you doing all these mental gymnastics and contorsionism to practice your considerable debating skills and elequence, or you just do it becasue you got no real proof and you want me to lower the bar of what a psysical, measurable proof is for you, once again?
We are talking about God here, not about an event comcerning a man we know existed, such as George Washington. Who cares if he crossed the darn river. It is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
If you say God is such a great being, surely you must conceded that some psysical, measurable proof of his existence should exist. We can measure distant galaxies, black holes masses, quasars, atoms, electron angular spin etc. Surely, something MUST be present from God. Some small trace. Not just some sophisticated debate, and supposition and smooth talking.
Give me something real. No more snake oil. |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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If things exists in our sensory world, would it not be reasonable to say they were made by someone or something?
For example, one sees a cake, can touch the cake, can eat and taste the cake, on knows it was made by someone.
One sees the creation, can feel parts of creation, smell it, taste it, hear it but we don't know how it came into being.
So one assigns the creatorship to an almighty maker, generally called "god".
What is the purpose of trying to prove or dis-prove existence of a creator?
Personally I believe in a creative-principle and that evolution is creation, still in process.
I don't think creation has been completed, as evolution has not been completed.
It may be that "god" is still evolving and to do so must keep on creating.
And junk.... |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Ms. Piggy,
glad you dropped by. Thanks for your positive input. Interesting view, and outlook.
| Quote: | One sees the creation, can feel parts of creation, smell it, taste it, hear it but we don't know how it came into being.
So one assigns the creatorship to an almighty maker, generally called "god". |
Perhaps we are taking the analogy too far? We use our human mental frame and assume that everything must have a creator. Then we add flesh and bones on that idea, sprinkle some ideology and add some ``Holy`` books and then claim that we have ``prooved`` Gods existence, when in fact we got nothing?! And is this not the history of all religions of the Book?
| Quote: | | What is the purpose of trying to prove or dis-prove existence of a creator? |
Hey, I always wondered if there is real psysical, measurable proof of God. I mean we humans spend so much blood, money, energy and time debating whose theological hallucination has the bigges d--k and bashing each other over the head to establish which one does. And all ofr what? The basic premise i.e. the existence of God has never been proven. So what was all the fuss about? 6000 years of recorded religions wars, up to and continuing in our time, this very day, and we dispute, and fight, and kill and destroy over a mental construct (God)whose existence hasnt even been proven?
That is why I am doig this. I want to see what is it we are fighting about. I want to find God, eny trace, any psysical or measurable proof would do.
Who is the kind heart who can help us? No snake oil salesmen need apply. We already had enough charlatans and smooth talkers with no proof. Enough words. |
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Unknown 288
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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To bread
A dream is as real as your thoughts and idea now. It certainly existed while you're asleep, but gone the moment you wake. Like your thoughts and idea now, they're certainly in your mind now, but gone the moment you sleep. The products of your mind does not need to affect physical world to show that they certainly existed at that particular moment.
The difficulty with trying to prove the existence of God is that we try to confine our ground to something that defies known physical laws. We do not accept such things as spirits, miracles, dreams, out-of-body experiences, yet keep insisting that if it is God, then he should be able to defy the common sense. With this condition, it is only expected that we will regard such things happening as 'rubbish'. This will not get us anywhere... 
If you want physical evidence whether God exists or not, then you probably have to wait until someone comes up an able detector. The science of experiments depends on our ability to produce a detection system capable to detect what we want to look for. Who knows, maybe one day we would be able to detect a new particle called spiriton and found out that there is a huge concentration of spiriton in a gigantic humanoid shape out there, and this humanoid easily roam from the outer space to earth and back... |
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Varanasi
Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:42 am Post subject: Belief |
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It is not a belief that the moon exixts.
It is a knowledge that the moon exixts. The knowledge is supported by sensory data.
Belief does not make a thing to be so. I believe that the earth is flat does not make the earth flat.
Until and unless a thing is proven it is not real and cannot be defined as knowledge.
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/guestwriters/tucker.html
http://www.wmn.net/blaine63/page92.htm
Last edited by Varanasi on Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:53 am Post subject: |
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We are talking about God. If you want to talk about a deified human (jesus and his apotheosys) we can start another thread. |
Jesus was God.
| Quote: | | you say you have such info. I would like you to share it with us. |
It is not something anyone would carry in their back pocket in order to pull out like a gunman at a dual. I don't think you are really serious anyway.
[/quote] |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| bread wrote: | | Quote: | | If you would consider the literary evidence as "proof" for Washington crossing the river, or for anything, then you have shown that you do not need to limit your "proof" to the 5 senses to know something. Or do you already concede that fact? |
Are you doing all these mental gymnastics and contorsionism to practice your considerable debating skills and elequence, or you just do it becasue you got no real proof and you want me to lower the bar of what a psysical, measurable proof is for you, once again?
We are talking about God here, not about an event comcerning a man we know existed, such as George Washington. Who cares if he crossed the darn river. It is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
If you say God is such a great being, surely you must conceded that some psysical, measurable proof of his existence should exist. We can measure distant galaxies, black holes masses, quasars, atoms, electron angular spin etc. Surely, something MUST be present from God. Some small trace. Not just some sophisticated debate, and supposition and smooth talking.
Give me something real. No more snake oil. |
In other words, you are not going to follow me down that road because you might have to admit you were wrong. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Belief |
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Belief does not make a thing to be so. I believe that the earth is flat does not make the earth flat.
Until and unless a thing is proven it is not real and cannot be defined as knowledge. |
This person has just refuted themselves. The KNOWLEDGE that you have a BELIEF can not be proven in the way you say is necessary. Therefore, by your own definition your own BELIEFS does not exist either yet you BELIEVE they do.
This imperialistic, materialistic philosophy has only existed for about 200 years. Society and philosophy has not yet fully realized the self refuting nature of it. But, like all attempts at explaining man by man alone, it will fail and give rise to the next attempt. And that failure will just go to further prove the Bible that says the “natural man” by himself is incapable of explaining his own existence. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Belief |
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In this link the writer bases his whole writing on the BELIEF that the brain produces all that we experience yet he admits he doesn't know how that works. He has refuted himself in that he has knowledge of something yet he admits he doesn’t understand how it works. Thus he does not have knowledge of how he has knowledge. That is identical to a belief in God. We know God exist yet we can not explain it all. |
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bread
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Quote:
you say you have such info. I would like you to share it with us.
It is not something anyone would carry in their back pocket in order to pull out like a gunman at a dual. I don't think you are really serious anyway. |
Well. you said you have such evidence, that there is a lot of such evidence etc. When I cal you to bring it forth you now say you dont have it? Am I reading you correctly? YOu are saying you had nothing??? 
Show what you got and you`ll find that I am serious. In fact if you have anything of the kind that you told us you have, then I will join your Church pronto. Clear enough for you? I WILL join your Church if you have the goods you told us about.
Now be kind and show us what you got.
Peace |
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Unknown 288
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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To Varanasi
This is interesting thought, however, unfortunately the nature is not as forgiving or simplistic as many people believe.
Is the moon there when nobody looks? Maybe, maybe not. It's a 50/50 chance that moon is there. When you look and happen to see the result that moon is there, you concluded that moon is there. When the next time someone else take a look, he doesn't see the moon, and he concluded that the moon is never there.
Before you said this is absurd, note that moon is only an exaggeration. The building blocks of our universe behave this way. In fact, it is a very interesting debate within philosophical community whether our observation actually gives out the result we wanted to see, that because we wanted to see it, it exists.
To eruss
We don't even know whether God exists at all. I can't expect anyone to have an evidence on this. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| bread wrote: | | Quote: | Quote:
you say you have such info. I would like you to share it with us.
It is not something anyone would carry in their back pocket in order to pull out like a gunman at a dual. I don't think you are really serious anyway. |
Well. you said you have such evidence, that there is a lot of such evidence etc. When I cal you to bring it forth you now say you dont have it? Am I reading you correctly? YOu are saying you had nothing???
Show what you got and you`ll find that I am serious. In fact if you have anything of the kind that you told us you have, then I will join your Church pronto. Clear enough for you? I WILL join your Church if you have the goods you told us about.
Now be kind and show us what you got.
Peace |
Actually I think I got it wrong. There are not 100 different literary works that contain references to Jesus. There are some 100 references to Jesus in some half dozen or more works. The Bible is one, Talmud is two, and Josephus is three. I have a book that lists more but I have to dig it out.
However, you are so literal minded you seem to have a problem with concepts and logic. And I doubt you are serious about anything you say. A talk show host was taking calls from people who think that we never landed on the moon. They think it was a Hollywood/Washington hoax. The show went on for one hour with nothing but callers who thought that. This goes to show that even if you witnessed God somehow as many did with Jesus, you still might not believe. So, this whole exercise asking for "proof" is a little dishonest on your part. Besides the Bible says you do not believe on your own anyway. It is a work of God, NOT me or you. |
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bread
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Eruss: define God. I want to know if YOU know how to define concepts and grasp logic.
A few questions to you also: 1) can God make errors?
2) does the Bible contain mistakes according to you?
3) if I find one error in it, would you then say it is a falsely assumed divinely authored book?
4) did Jesus make errors? If yes, could he still be a God as you claim?
Peace |
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