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zer0degrees
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 1392
Location: Cosmic Castaway
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 Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Righteous wrote: |
| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
Everybody has good ideas but who has the balls to put he bell on the cat? Eventually you have to come out of your cyber hideouts and face the world. There is no other way. Don't expect to 'write a book' and hope the rest of humanity will act upon it.
Ali Sina critisizes all religions like the Sikhs and Christians and tell us that they are wonderful 'stories' but yet he and his loser atheist buddies lack the guts and balls to do what they did. Hail to atheism our new way of life!! |
I hope you know you are sounding more and more like a Muslim.... |
It's not surprising. I believe he is a Sikh, and Sikhism was created from Islam and Hinduism. SJ obviously hates hindus and hinduism, so what do you get when you take the hinduism out of Sikhism?
Aren't you tired of eating sole as yet SJ?
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Cave ab homine unius libri |
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bob
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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ScienceRules writes:
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| There are many people who are both multiculturalists and claim to believe in human rights. For some reason they do not see the conflict. There was a teacher at the high school I went to who said that she believed in equality under the law for women. She also believed that the treatment of women in Islamic countries was okay because it was "part of the culture." This seems to be an obvious conflict to me. |
This is typical. Female genital mutilation? 'It's their culture!' Death penalty for apostates? 'It's their culture!' etc etc.
Cultural relativism is in fact a particularly insidious and dangerous way of asserting not the equality of cultures but the superiority of Western culture. The subtext for cultural relativists is : "Only we in the West have the intellectual maturity to critically examine and reject our cultural norms. Other cultures do not possess this maturity and so we should not apply our advanced standards to them." If we have the intellectual maturity to critically examine our cultural norms then that 'maturity' should be applied to all cultures and religions, especially Islam.
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"Ecrasez l'infâme!" |
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Righteous
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3728
Location: Through the looking glass.
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cat wrote: |
To Ali Sina.
Much of what i said in my previous intervention is also adressing to you. Do you still maintain that Semite is a race ?
The article you cited is wrong because the first one who coined the term ''Semitic'' is M. Ludwig Schlözer in his EICHHORN'S book REPERTORIUM, published in 1781. It became a widely accepted expression in 1807. This term ''Semitic'' referring to a family language is almost considered obsolite now by scholars. They reffer to ''Hamito-Semitic'' languages but even this term is being abandon for the ''Afro-Asian'' family languages. Any racist trait given to it is fallacious. I sincerely hope you get over this mental construction since racism is itself an aberration from the very start, which is the Bible/Quran. |
You are wrong and Ali is right. You are off the track. The term Semitic is different to anti-semitic. Weren't you discussing the latter?
The term "anti-semitic" is now purely confined to anti-Jewish sentiment because of popular usage. Words take on whatever meaning that people give it. By way of example, twenty years ago, the word "gay" didn't mean homosexual but has now adopted that meaning.
Check out Dictionary.com;
or webster.
| Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary wrote: |
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semitism
One entry found for anti-Semitism.
Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun
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Last edited by Righteous on Fri May 27, 2005 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Righteous
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3728
Location: Through the looking glass.
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| zer0degrees wrote: |
| Righteous wrote: |
| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
Everybody has good ideas but who has the balls to put he bell on the cat? Eventually you have to come out of your cyber hideouts and face the world. There is no other way. Don't expect to 'write a book' and hope the rest of humanity will act upon it.
Ali Sina critisizes all religions like the Sikhs and Christians and tell us that they are wonderful 'stories' but yet he and his loser atheist buddies lack the guts and balls to do what they did. Hail to atheism our new way of life!! |
I hope you know you are sounding more and more like a Muslim.... |
It's not surprising. I believe he is a Sikh, and Sikhism was created from Islam and Hinduism. SJ obviously hates hindus and hinduism, so what do you get when you take the hinduism out of Sikhism?
Aren't you tired of eating sole as yet SJ? |
Only Muslims ever want to debate face-to-face and can't understand the need for anonymity. Samurai_Jack appear to be similarly unable to comprehend the need for anonymity. |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cat wrote: |
To Ali Sina.
Much of what i said in my previous intervention is also adressing to you. Do you still maintain that Semite is a race ?
Any racist trait given to it is fallacious. I sincerely hope you get over this mental construction since racism is itself an aberration from the very start, which is the Bible/Quran. |
Please write to all these sources too and convince them they are all in error.
Anti-Semitism
1-
http://www.bartleby.com/65/an/antiSemi.html
form of prejudice against Jews,
2-
http://www.bartleby.com/59/13/antisemitism.html
Prejudice or hatred against Jews, a Semitic race.
3-
http://www.bartleby.com/61/91/A0349100.html
1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews
4-
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anti-semitism
1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.
5
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=anti-semitism&x=12&y=14
hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious,
6.
I already quoted what Wikipedia says.
The word ‘gay’ originally means, happily excited, merry, keenly alive and exuberant,
Despite this you would not say you are gay (unless you are) because this word has come to mean completely a different thing.
Anti-Semitism means hatred of the Jews, a Semitic race, and nothing else as per above sources.
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Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
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Samurai_Jack
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2782
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Samurai_Jack wrote:
Everybody has good ideas but who has the balls to put he bell on the cat? Eventually you have to come out of your cyber hideouts and face the world. There is no other way. Don't expect to 'write a book' and hope the rest of humanity will act upon it.
Ali Sina critisizes all religions like the Sikhs and Christians and tell us that they are wonderful 'stories' but yet he and his loser atheist buddies lack the guts and balls to do what they did. Hail to atheism our new way of life!!
I hope you know you are sounding more and more like a Muslim.... |
And exactly how is your behaviour different from a Muslim who calls this site a hate site and Ali Sina racist?
You should never try to silence someone with labels just because their opinions differ from yours. It is the first sign that you are bankrupt of any ideas.
Instead please tell me if there is any truth to what I said.
_________________
India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator.
Winston Churchill...Evolutionary fairy tales for grown ups http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/evolutiondefinition.htm |
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Mairjke
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ScienceRules wrote: |
| There are many people who are both multiculturalists and claim to believe in human rights. For some reason they do not see the conflict. There was a teacher at the high school I went to who said that she believed in equality under the law for women. She also believed that the treatment of women in Islamic countries was okay because it was "part of the culture." This seems to be an obvious conflict to me. |
Of course that is a conflict. You won't believe it ScienceRules, but I have a friend like that. She once told me that she thought it insulting that western people were telling muslim women they were oppressed. Muslim women should be free to live how they wanted. I told her that once upon a time feminists didn’t mind insulting my father by calling him an ‘oppressor’ and labelling my mother ‘a slave of the patriarchy’ because she was a housewife. They didn't care about their 'freedom' one bit. So every phenomenon in society should be open for discussion, including islam. That wouldn’t be a problem if only muslims would learn the meaning of the word ‘debate’ and didn’t go out shooting and stabbing people to death (like Theo van Gogh) or running to their PC to send some threatening e-mails to politicians (who are now in hiding because of it). She looked at me as if I were the biggest racist extreme right-wing fascist she had ever seen. Fortunately we have other topics to talk about. 
Come to think of it, one of my brothers once told me it would be partly my fault if the whole of Europe ended up like Bosnia  .
| Quote: |
| I think that we have to acknowledge that a practice is not necessarily good just because it is cultural or because it is based on a religion. We should not tolerate intolerance. We should be able to criticize a religious or cultural ideology the same way we can criticize a political ideology. |
I completely agree with you. I consider religions as kind of the world’s oldest ideologies. Every idea should be open for discussion and for the last 300 years or so it always has been. Moreover people have no trouble criticizing or even bashing christianity, so why would islam be exempt from scrutiny. |
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Mairjke
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Contradiction |
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| pace wrote: |
| What the Council of Europe wrote is a contradiction: (...) |
It sure is, Pace. Thanks for elaborating. I was too lazy to explain why I thought the ideas were oxymoronic
| Quote: |
| Tell that the Council of Europe! |
I will. Thanks too for the links to the institutions of the EU. |
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Mairjke
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| bob wrote: |
| Cultural relativism is in fact a particularly insidious and dangerous way of asserting not the equality of cultures but the superiority of Western culture. The subtext for cultural relativists is : "Only we in the West have the intellectual maturity to critically examine and reject our cultural norms. Other cultures do not possess this maturity and so we should not apply our advanced standards to them." If we have the intellectual maturity to critically examine our cultural norms then that 'maturity' should be applied to all cultures and religions, especially Islam. |
And that’s exactly what makes people in favour of multiculturalism bigger racists than people who battle islam. It’s a mix of ‘prejudices of low expectations’ and ‘guilt about the perceived successes and crimes of the west’. These notions are highest among successful well-to-do self-proclaimed intellectuals who think they know what’s good for the rest of society. They are willing to sacrifice their own civilization to prove they’re right and don’t mind destroying all they care about in the process. So they're are not only racist but blind, martyric and arrogant too. |
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The Cat
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 4357
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I am not talking about anti-Semitism. I ask you about the Semite being a race as you mentionned in your article. DO YOU STILL MAINTAIN THAT SEMITE IS A RACE ? That is my question. |
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ScienceRules
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 1908
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mairjke wrote: |
| Moreover people have no trouble criticizing or even bashing christianity, so why would islam be exempt from scrutiny. |
This is very true. There are many people in the U.S. who speak out against the intolerance of what is known as the "Christian Right". The Christian Right wants to use the government to pass laws that favor their type of Christianity. They are rightly criticized by many people (myself included). Since it is acceptable and common among politically correct people to criticize the Christian Right, why is it not considered proper to criticize the intolerant aspects of Islam? |
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bob
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Mairjke writes:
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| It’s a mix of ‘prejudices of low expectations’ and ‘guilt about the perceived successes and crimes of the west’. |
Exactly. I am sure that contemporary Western society must be the only one in the whole of human history that is possessed of a collective guilt complex. The Japanese have never felt any collective guilt for the crimes they committed in Asia. The Chinese have never experienced any collective guilt for the Cultural Revolution etc. Muslims - well I needn't elaborate!
Has anyone got an explanation for why this is so?
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"Ecrasez l'infâme!" |
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asma marwan
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 12:33 am Post subject: the fall of europe, or maybe it's only a stumble |
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islam, as an umma, not muslims as individuals, has not progressed emotionally (they don"t care for others as they care for themselves); their minds are cluttered with irrational superstitious beliefs at the level of a tribal master/slave society, and due to its own internal logic that is different from ours, it is difficult at first to understand, and then, understanding, difficult for me to accept them into the family of humanity.
The ethics of islam is of such a sad state as to be pitiful. Their morals and conduct are of the lowest order; they lie, cheat, steal, rape and murder against all others than themselves, they are allowed to have sacred crime. They're not supposed to treat each other this way, but facts say otherwise.
Is this the way Europe wants to go, a devolution of a great civilization?
The civilized culture or society, with the ability to make agreements, trade and travel without bloodshed ,is better than a barbaric one, with death, honor killings, pedeophelia, forced cliterectomies, slaves and second-class citizenship with a tax. And that's what will happen to Europe if things continue. Soon no one will want to visit the beautiful cities with all the great history and art (that will be defaced), with bombings at the theaters and restaurants, and harrassment and such. In only a few generations, the Brits, the French, Italians, Swedes, Dutch, Danes, Norweigians, Spanish and Portugese, the Germans, et.al, will become arabized, lazy and dull. All European history, art, achievements will be assumed by the ummah, and memories of a glorious civilization will fade into the mists of time.
Oriana Fallaci and Hirsi Ali are heroines of the highest degree,
as are you Ali Sina. May you prosper, may your words plant seeds
that grow into bountiful, ripe fruit of human awakening. |
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The Cat
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 4357
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, Mr. Marwan. Muslims have a soul made of bloodthirst, within a heart made of rubber and a mind like teflon. Some kind of vampires allergic to the Cross, the sunshine and their own reflexion in any given mirror. A frightful nightmare is then cloaking over the free world. PRETTY SOON, OUR KIDS WILL BE IN DANGER WHILE PASSING THE HALLOWEEN, A PAGAN TRADITION. |
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Hector
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 7144
Location: Astroistan
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| The Cat wrote: |
To Hector.
You are the one relying on a false authority, establishing from it a distorted meaning. You rely on Wilhem Marr authority just because it became an accepted tradition. In doing so you act like the Muslims who establish their belief on the accepted tradition on the Koran's authority. Who is the authority on human races : Wilhelm Marr or Anthropology ? Gobineau or Biology and Genetic ? To acknowledge premises based on a substitution of facts by twisted corruptions is a matter of belief not of facts. What you say is that an accepted belief is an acceptable substitution for the truth, just like the Muslims do. You'll err in between all kinds of false reactions from that and only bring more confusion. THE BASIC PROBLEM THEN COMES FROM THE AUTHORITY YOU RELY ON. Most of our bloodshed comes from accepted wrong premises just like you do. |
Do you even understand what argumentum ad verecundiam means?
How can you claim I am appealing to authority when I am referring to the source of the word 'anti-semitism'. Didn't I show that Wilhelm Marr coined (i.e. invented) the word 'anti-semitism' to mean anti-Jew or Jew-hatred?
That's the original meaning of the word, isn't it? Going back to the original source is not appealing to authority. Sheesh.
| The Cat wrote: |
So you come to say that ''it doesn't matter if the Eastern Roman empire didn't call itself that'' and this kind of aberration comes from the ''authority'' you accept. To do so confine to worst than simply ignorance since all you built upon it is but a house of cards you'll have to defend emotionnaly rather than with rationality. ''Byzantine'' is now a known fallacy by any serious historian. You should rather ask yourself ''what this fallacy is really hidding ?''. FIRST YOU DOUBT, THEN YOU DISCOVER. Otherwise, following the mutton's trail will only leads you to the slaughtering house. |
What twisted logic is this?
Does it matter what the Eastern Roman empire called itself? We are in an English-language forum and the English speakers call the Eastern Roman Empire the Byzantines.
| The Cat wrote: |
The whole racism dilemma is based on the false authority of the Bible and comes from a ''Chosen People'' projection. Once you take this ''authority'' at face value, you're bound to tragic results as shown by the recent european history. Wrongs can't lead you to rights but to a misleadin chainreaction like enacting anti-racism laws that in fact impose a dictatorship over the basic freedom to criticize, our only garantee to a humanist society. So Europe is only, through those laws, propounding a social censorship that has to end in another bloody tragedy. |
Non-sequitar.
| The Cat wrote: |
To quote Salman Rushdie : ''In the end a fundamental decision needs to be made : do we want to live in a free society or not ? Democracy is not a tea party (...) people get extremely upset with each other. They argue vehemently against each other's positions. But they don't shoot. (...) People must be protected from discrimination by virtue of their race, but you cannot ring-fence their ideas. The moment you say that any idea system is sacred, whether it's a belief system or a secular ideology, the moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thoughts become impossible.'' |
Who's appealing to authority now, eh? |
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