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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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Sehar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 236
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 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Becuase Muslim men could not see and enjoy sex part of woman exposing during bowing and prostrating .......... at least one place may be sex-free....so that Muslim give rest to their......... 
With great regard
sehar |
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armour_piercing_bullets
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:17 am Post subject: |
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i hv few humble questions muslims :
if muslim woman stand in last row,and see the ass of men
will they also not get some sexual titilation ??
r only men sexual beings ?
r women not sexual beings ??
if god/allah created man and woman equal,then both willk
hv sex drive.
then women at back or front etc will also get sexual
urges and get distracted.
also,if allah is so wise and stuff,why he did not put in
a switch in humans,when u pray u can just press it
and sexual urge will be off,and when u r normal,
u can flip it back on.
it will be so convienent.
if humans can design products with specific functions
and switches why allah did not do it ?
does it mean...humans r better designers than the imaginary allah ?
i think so it does.
it only proves that :
RELIGION IS A DISEASE OF THE MIND AND TRUTH IS THE ONLY CURE
AL_HAMMMM_dulillaa |
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Sehar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: |
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indeed both have sex drive......so.....one woman and numerius men............ anyhow muslims are human being.
with regard
sehar |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Well, let us learn from Islamic scholors and Islamic Intellectuals on this point. I think women should lead Islamic Prayer, if needed they should change the way the pray and even the God they pray and the messenger they think is the messenger of Allaha/God...
on Islam online our Fatimha Asks same question and a Mufti Sheikh answers.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=12262
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| Fatimha Asks., Can Women Lead People in Friday Prayer? |
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our Mufti Sheikh Muhammed Nur Abdullah answers on 14/Mar/2005
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
.................
There is a consensus among Muslim jurists that a woman is not allowed to lead men in a Mosque or congregation. Also, she is not allowed to lead people in a Friday Prayer or to deliver the Friday khutbah. She is, however, allowed to lead a congregation consisting only of women.
Responding to the question, Sheikh Muhammad Nur Abdullah, President of the Islamic Society of North American (ISNA) and member of the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:
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1. Islamic teachings are based on two things: belief and submission. When it comes to `ibadat (acts of worship), the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) taught us to follow his example and not someone else’s. Salah (ritual Prayer) is unanimously agreed to be an act of `ibadah, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said “Pray as you see me praying.” So the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and the Companions and the generations that came after them have to be followed.
2. The rules of salah should be known from scholars because they know how to interpret the sayings of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Among those great scholars are `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her). Among the rules of salah are the requirements and prerequisites for how to perform it, who can lead the people in salah, and so on.
3. Scholars have put certain conditions for someone to be qualified to lead the people in Prayer. The imam must be a Muslim, sane, adolescent, male, and pure, i.e., have wudu’ (ablution). Women leading men in Prayer is wrong, whether in fard (obligatory) or nafl (supererogatory) Prayers. But if the followers are only women, it is allowed for a woman to lead the Prayer. According to Shafi`is and Hanbalis, a woman can lead other women in Prayer while standing in the middle of the line. According to Malikis, women cannot lead other women in Prayer at all, while the Hanafis say it is makruh or blameworthy.
4. According to the hadith of Umm Waraqah reported in the Sunan of Abu Dawud, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) appointed a muezzin for her, and ordered her to lead her family members in Prayer.
5. The majority of Muslim jurists say that there is no single incident where a woman led a mixed Prayer outside her family members.
Having said that, we cannot find one single proof that women can lead men outside their family members in salah, and going with the hadith “pray as you see me praying”, we cannot innovate a way of performing salah. |
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well that is what our President says..so Muslimahs and Muslim friends let us use our brain and find out the views of PRESIDENT on this..I am scraching my head to understand what actually he is trying to say..
with best regards
yeezevee |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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So let us continue with this subject of "Women leading Islamic Prayer", it is a vital issue and Amina should be given all the credit for leading the "MEN" in that Islamic prayer.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/18/muslim.prayer.ap/
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Amina Wadud led the mixed-gender service under the glare of the media
A female professor led an Islamic prayer service Friday with men in the congregation despite sharp criticism from Muslim religious leaders in the Middle East who complained that it violated centuries of tradition. Amina Wadud, a professor of Islamic studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, led the service at Synod House at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, an Episcopal church in Manhattan. |
Rascals control the Mosques.. so she couldn't get a Mosque to lead the prayer and she led it in an Episcopal church in Manhattan. fair enough., now let us read the Islamic intellectuals from all over the world.
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There was a brief outburst from some protesters outside the building at the start of the service, but they were kept from entering by a heavy police presence.
1). One young U.S.-born, bearded activist, who only gave his name as Nussrah, said Wadud was not representative of Muslims.
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| "She is tarnishing the whole Islamic faith," he said. |
3). Three New York mosques had refused to host the service, Nomani said. It was moved to Synod House after a site that had earlier been selected for the service, an art gallery, received a bomb threat.
4). Yvonne Haddad, a professor of Islamic studies at Georgetown University, said the service goes against the religion's traditions.
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"It's a time when people can get away with anything," Haddad said. "When people have a breakdown of traditional leadership, largely because the U.S. government has delegitimized the Muslim leadership in America, American Muslims are searching for new leaders more able to address their daily needs.
"People in America think they are going to be the vanguards of change," Haddad said. "But for Arab Muslims in the Middle East, American Muslims continue to be viewed on the margins of the faith." |
5). The sheik of Cairo's Al-Azhar mosque, one of the world's top Islamic institutions, said Islam permits women to lead other women in prayer but not a congregation with men in it.
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| "A woman's body is private," Sheik Sayed Tantawi wrote in a column in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram in which he was asked about Wadud's planned prayer. "When she leads men in prayer, in this case, it's not proper for them to look at the woman whose body is in front of them. Even if they see it in their daily life, it shouldn't be in situations of worship, where the main point is humility and modesty." |
6). Abdul-Aziz al-Khayyat, a former minister of religious affairs in Jordan and a Muslim cleric, also said it would be forbidden under Islamic doctrine, and that the prayers of men who participated would not count.
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| "Prophet Muhammad and all the scholars did not allow the woman to lead ... mixed congregations, not even to allow her to pray at the side of the man," al-Khayyat said. "She can only pray behind him." |
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well we lare learning something here.. The heat is on on Islamic leaders..
yeezevee |
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Sehar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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In Islam woman is considered inferior to man and man (either he is educated or Stupid) is superior and protector of woman. Woman’s Eman is considered flawed and defective. Two PHd women are equal to a stupid man. Woman is tilth. Women have no right to go out from house. Women have no right to talk to any man other than her father and brothers. In such cases, how Islam and Muslims can allow a woman to lead prayer?
If any Mullah or liberal Muslim gave Fatwa in favour of women to lead prayer he will be strongly opposed and condemn widely by Muslims to protect their Jehalat.
with regard
sehar |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: |
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nytimes says
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/18/nyregion/18muslim.html
Dr. Amina Wadud, a professor of Islamic studies in Richmond, Va.
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Critics of the event, which will be led by an Islamic studies professor at Synod House of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, say it does not reflect the popular, more devout views of American Muslims. They worry that the controversy will cast aspersions on a religion that is already poorly received by segments of the American public.
The plan, however it plays out, has already provoked disapproval from clerics abroad and intense debate in Internet chat rooms. In addition, a bomb threat forced the organizers to change the site of the service, said Sundaram Tagore, the owner of a SoHo art gallery where the event had originally been scheduled.
Rather than discouraging the organizers, the controversy has given them greater resolve, said Asra Q. Nomani, the lead organizer.
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| "People have to really focus on the second-class status that women have in the Muslim world," Ms. Nomani said. "We are taking actions that no one else would have dared to think about before. Nobody cared that we didn't have a place in the faith. We were just abandoned." |
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Ms. Nomani, an author and former reporter for The Wall Street Journal, created a stir last year when she entered her mosque in Morgantown, W. Va., through the front entrance, reserved for men, and insisted on praying with them.
Then, a month ago, shortly before publishing a book about women in Islam, Ms. Nomani asked Dr. Amina Wadud to lead the prayer in New York and deliver a sermon.
Word of the prayer spread after Ms. Nomani and the editors of Muslim WakeUp!, a Web site, publicized the event and her book. Some opponents believe the service is, in part, an attempt to drum up publicity for Ms. Nomani's book.
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| "My concern is a backlash," said Aisha al-Adawiya, the executive director of Women in Islam. "This kind of change has to come from within the community. It's being driven from outside." |
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| "A new generation of Muslims is coming into its own," said Yvonne Haddad, a professor of history who specializes in women and Islam at Georgetown University. "The children of the immigrants are looking for new ways to create an American Islam, one in which they feel comfortable in an American context." |
This voice has sounded loudly in New York City. A New Yorker, Ahmed Nassef, a co-founder of Muslim WakeUp! also started the Progressive Muslim Union in November.
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| Quoting studies that show that only 10 percent of Muslims attend mosque every week, Mr. Nassef said he believes that the Muslim community is in a crisis. The root of the problem, he said, is that the [u]nation's mosques and Islamic centers are largely run by immigrants who are out of touch with the new generation of Muslims.[u] |
"Many of our institutions really don't speak for us," he said.
In some ways, Imam Ahmed Dewidar, of the Islamic Center of Mid-Manhattan, personifies the split in the community between old and new.
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| Mr. Dewidar immigrated to the United States from Alexandria, Egypt, a decade ago. "I have never heard of this before," he said, regarding the idea of a woman leading Friday prayer. "It's so strange." |
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well dear Imam Ahmed Dewidar, NY is a starnge place, people come up with strange ideas. so learn to live with .. leave that Arabian Mumbo-jumbo rules in the sand..These are RULES OF NEW YORK..My dear Men of Islam, either leave the Mosques or learn to stand behind women
yeezevee |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Well friends, let us read it from Eastern Islamic scholors/news what they say about this very, very important subject..Iftikhar Ali in "Nation".. news from Land of pure writes
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2005/20/index7.php
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Woman-led prayer sparks controversy
NEW YORK - A Muslim woman writer, who was born in India and grew up in the US, says she helped organize the female-led Friday prayer here to draw attention to the inequality for women in Muslim spiritual life and Muslim life in general.
1). “We are standing up for our rights as women in Islam,” Asra Q Nomani, an author and former Wall Street Journal reporter who is a descendent of Maulana Shibli Nomani, told a crowded news conference before the prayer.
2). “We will no longer accept the back door or the shadows. At the end of the day, we’ll be leaders in the Muslim world,” she said as the move generated a raging debate.
Several mosques turned down the request to host Friday’s prayer; a bomb threat then forced organizers to move the event from a Soho gallery to the cathedral, where police officers screened participants for weapons. Dr Amina Wadud was escorted by two muscular bodyguards, and about a dozen police patrolled outside Synod House, some carrying submachine guns.
Three men tried to interrupt the service before it started. One of them shouted in the lobby as police forced them to leave. Some 15 others protested outside, saying women cannot lead mixed-gender prayers. Ms Nomani said
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| she had organized the service so that women would have “the right to enter a mosque, to enter through the front door, and to be greeted as my brother greeted me earlier.” |
Addressing the press conference, Dr Wadud said,
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| “The issue of gender equality is a very important one in Islam,” adding, “Muslims have unfortunately used highly restrictive interpretations of history to move backward. With this prayer service, we are moving forward. This single act is symbolic of the possibilities within Islam.” |
During her “khutba” (sermon), Dr Wadud referred to
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| God as both male and female. |
She said she based that on the Holy Quran, which says that Allah is not like humans. “Allah cannot be limited to being either a he or a she,” Wadud said, “because that will make him like us.” She said Islam initially had treated men and women equally but that men had rewritten the rules “to justify the imprisonment of woman to only be complementary to men as sexual partners”.
The Azaan was recited by an American Muslim woman of Egyptian descent, Suehyla el-Attar, who was not wearing a hijab. |
it is a great day for women of Islam.., the least it is the first step but It is another thing whether the women really understand what Prophet Mohammad said.
yeezevee |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I often read and learn real Islam from asking question to real Imams, not the Psuedo Islamic Intellectuals such as Dr. Rashid Kalifa.. the Biochemist., so let us read livingislam on the issue of women leading Prayer in real Mosque Not in CHURCH.. the way Amina did in New York..
http://www.livingislam.org/o/wbm_e.html
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Question: Why Must Women Pray Behind Men?
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ans: As-Salamu `alaykum:
Because the Prophet MHMD said so, upon him blessings and peace: |
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1. "Lo! Let absolutely no woman lead a man in prayer!"
Arabic:"Ala la ta'ummanna imra'atun rajulan."
Ibn Majah, Abu Ya`la, `Abd ibn Humayd in his Musnad, Abu Nu`aym in the Hilya with different chains from Jabir, and al-Tabarani in al-Awsat from Abu Sa`id al-Khudri. |
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| 2."No nation shall succeed that is led by a woman." Al-Bukhari and Muslim from Abu Bakrah, Allah be well-pleased with him. |
This is even more binding in Salat, since the imamate of Salat requires a far more slavish imitation and following than the greater imamate. Further, the imamate of prayer is a delegatory function of the latter.
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| 3. "The best of the men's prayer-rows is the first and the worst the last, while the best of the women's prayer-rows is the last and the worst is the first." Muslim, the Sunan, and Ahmad from Abu Hurayra, Jabir, and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, Allah be well-pleased with them. |
I.e. the contrary of imamate, which means "leading from the front."
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4. `Ali said, Allah be well-pleased with him:
"A woman does not lead as imam." Mudawwana, I`la' al-Sunan.
Imam al-Bayhaqi mentioned all the above but the last in his Sunan and said: "This is also the School of the Seven Jurists of Madina among the Tabi`in then those that followed them." |
This is also the position of the Four Schools. More, Ibn Hazm in Maratib al-Ijma` and Ibn Qattan al-Fasi in al-Iqna` fi Masa'il al-Ijma` listed it among the rulings that muster unanimous consensus :
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| "They concur one and all that a woman cannot lead men in prayer with their knowledge of her being a woman and, if they do, their prayer is invalid by consensus." |
Second, it would not be right for one upon whom congregation is not incumbent to lead one upon whom it is obligatory.
Third, the best salat of a woman is in her house without contest, and it is not right that the leader of the Salat be precluded from excellence to begin with.
"why can't women be Imams or Khateebs?"
Both the imamate and khutba belong to those that can lead men in prayer and are subject to the same restrictions.
As for the claim that some of the defunct schools allowed it:
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| Al-Tabari, al-Muzani, Abu Thawr, and some of the Hanbalis allowed it ONLY in Tarawih AND only if none of the men present knows any Qur'an AND if the woman leads from behind the men's rows - i.e. the contrary of imamate, which means "leading from the front"! See: Ibn Qudama, Mughni; Ibn al-Jawzi, Ahkam al-Nisa'; al-San`ani, Subul al-Salam; al-Shawkani, Nayl al-Awtar; al-Tahanawi, I`la' al-Sunan; `Itr, I`lam al-Anam. |
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read the rest at the site..
yeezevee |
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armour_piercing_bullets
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: why prayer in kafir church ? why not in mosque ?? |
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very funny....muslim woman lead prayer in church...not mosque.
what wud hv happened if woman had led prayer in mosque ??
allah wud hv dropped bomb on her ??
or allah wud hv killed her by striking her with meteroit or lightening ??
if allah really hate woman leading prayed he wud hv done the above mentaioned stuff even she was leading prayer in a pig sty.
but allah dont care if woman lead prayer in mosque,church,
pig sty or anywhere.
bcoz : ALLAH DOES NOT EXIST.
it is so funny everyone give publicitity to such events.
real events that can destroy humanity,like an asteroid that
passed 6million km away from earth got no mention.
this happened 10 days ago.
had it hot earth mankind wud hv been wiped out.
nither god/allah or jesus will protect earth if meteroite or asteroid or comet strike earth.
we need to forget religion and focus on saving planet earth.
else no human will be alive to be able to pray to imaginary
god/allah.
if prayer cud avert this disaster,then this humble
kafir has a simple test.
let the payer-saying person say prayer.
i will shoot a 7.62mm or more powerful 12.5mm round
round at them from 1 meter away into their heart,and
it will be tungsten carbide or pure tungsten round.
[ for good mesure the bullet may be coated with lard ]
this i will do 100 times to ensure that the result is
repeatable,and not fluke,but repetable and provable.
if the bullet by some miracle stops in mid air
then we can say the prayer worked.
then this person can be entrusted the role
of protectiong planet earth from strikes
of extra terrestrial bodies.
else they will be dead anyway.
any muslims willing to take up the challenge of this humble kafir ??
let us forget false prayer etc,..let us focus on saving mankind
and planet earth. |
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munira
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 894
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I heard gandhi used to sleep next to naked women to see if he could resist temptation and not think about sex even when there were hot naked chics..Perhaps muslim men can learn to resist temptation the same wayw ith a fully covered chic standing in front of them. |
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Fazil
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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So that's why Muslims are expressly not allowed to have SEX during the day during Ramadhan. Because in-between namaaz (the 5 ritual prayers), SEX was the usual pastime for the prophet and his companions (i.e. when they are not fighting), having to enterain dozens of wives and concubines equally.
_________________
Falsehood shall be destroyed; truth in the end shall prevail. - Adi Granth |
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Susan
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 1534
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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I find it difficult to impossible to believe that any man would be "stirred" by "the body movements" of Amina Wadud, a plain-looking, heavy-set, middle-aged woman smothered in 500 yards of heavey drapery fabric.
And if by the extremely unlikely chance some man is "stirred" by the homely Amina doing "suggestive body movements" while encased in her mobile drapery prison, so freakin' what? Having a stray thought about sex is not the same as doing it.
Are Muslim men so obsessed with sex that they don't know how to stifle a distracting thought, like any mature adult person, and go about their business?
Also, if the Islamic type of praying is so "suggestive" and "lust-stirring" for men to observe, then why does Allah insist upon this type of prayer in the first place? Why doesn't Allah establish a more "decent" style of praying if he's so obsessed with not stirring up men's lusts? |
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SherKhan
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 491
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Susan wrote,
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| I find it difficult to impossible to believe that any man would be "stirred" by "the body movements" of Amina Wadud, a plain-looking, heavy-set, middle-aged woman smothered in 500 yards of heavey drapery fabric. |
Today it’s Dr. Wadud, tomorrow it could be (sexy actress) Sharon Stone, a converted Muslim. Then they have a problem.
Actually, Muslim Imams have failed to see the positive aspect of this concept. They should encourage more beautiful women to lead the prayer; it will attract more men to attend. |
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