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Martini
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 37
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 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:02 am Post subject: Will all Christians go to hell? |
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Yes
3:85Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
Or No?
2 2 Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
59 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Last edited by Martini on Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Immanuel
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 1106
Location: Dar-El-Harb
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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The later verses follows the first ones, thus abrogating them. There is even an islamic science who studies which verses are no longer valid because more recent ones have cancelled them. A bright example is the "There is no compulsion in religion" thing.
_________________
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JESUS is my Lord, true Man and true God! |
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sbwus
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 1061
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Will all Christians go to hell? |
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| Martini wrote: |
Yes
3:85Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
Or No?
22 Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
52 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. |
Dear copy and paste person, you have misquoted the last Ayaah (verse) it is 59 and not 52.
The answer of your question "Will all Christians go to Hell?" is, yes indeed. Jesus is already theere, your convicted felon shan god could save his own ass despite of all his miracles, and was hanged rightfully for terrorist attack on temple, which killed 1000 Jews. Read this,
http://users4.ev1.net/~nami/To_Jerry_Falwell-Who_Was_The_Terrorist.htm
Now you are using two set[s] of Ayaat that are different than each other in theme, meaning and message, not to mention English transaltion (without knowing the explicit meaning and implication) for certain words.
Jesus and Satan, two soul mates.
http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/soul-mates.htm
Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell?
http://users4.ev1.net/~nami/Response_Will_Christians.htm
Now why Muslims' belief is bothering you about the fate of Christians, when according to Christians' Muslims are:
heathen
unclean
unsaved
will not eneter kingdom of god (Christrians' Chukky Cheese place)
To learn about 22 & 59 click on
http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/najat.htm
Christians are not saved according to Bible itself.
Salvation in Islaam vs. Salvation in Christianity!
http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/myth.htm
_________________
"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
Last edited by sbwus on Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Martini
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Originally posted by Immanuel
The later verses follows the first ones, thus abrogating them. |
So, you believe that the Qu'ran was compiled in some sort of order? You also believes that God changes his mind?
| Quote: |
Originally posted by sbwus
Dear copy and paste person, you have misquoted the last Ayaah (verse) it is 59 and not 52. |
Yes wus, it was from 5: 69. My appologies. But why do you have a problem with me ccopying and pasting? Would it make you feel better if I had typed it out? And this is coming from someone who trys to answer my question by providing links. Jesus was already there? Christianity didn't come until after Jesus, so this is pretty obvious isn't it?
Last edited by Martini on Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Now why Muslims' belief is bothering you about the fate of Christians, when according to Christians' Muslims are:
heathen
unclean
unsaved
will not eneter kingdom of god |
Is That UnSHAVED or unsaved... Get over the Goddam Islam..A Clanish Cult
yeezevee |
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asymptote
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 62
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
I am NO EXPERT, so, what I will tell will only reflect what I understand reading the verses you mentioned (I use an online Quran right now, and I have almost no knowledge of the content of the rest of this book).
From what I understand, 5.69 seems to say that everybody believing in one God only will go to Heaven.
5.72 seems to say that if you associate anything to God, you go to Hell.
That doesn't shock me since I know Christians who believe in the unicity of God. I even know people who call themselves atheists and who say they believe in a "Grand Architect"
So, according to what I understand (which can be right or wrong), No matter what you label yousrself, no matter your religion/sect, if you are monotheist and do good deeds, you go to Heaven.
Now, please, I hope i didnt offend anyone. I am just trying to understand. I am a bit familiar with the Quran now (but not much), but I am no expert.
I also think the concept of abrogation suppose that GOD changes His mind.... I don't think that is possible if God is Almighty. |
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Truthseeker30
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 58
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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This debate only proves that the Quran is self-contradicting. How and what it contradicts itself in is irrelevant. The important thing is that the contradiction exists, since we have a bad habit of claiming the Quran to be free of such flaws.
_________________
They call me the Seeker
I've been searching low and high
I won't get to get what I'm after
until the day I die
- The Who |
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Martini
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Originally posted by asymptote
From what I understand, 5.69 seems to say that everybody believing in one God only will go to Heaven. |
This must mean that muslims think Jews are going to heaven, right? |
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asymptote
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 62
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: |
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From what I read, the answer is yes, jews go to heaven. Especially since they are mentioned in this 5.69 verse.
Again, I am no specialist. Just reading the verses you posted. |
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Martini
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| So, do the other muslims here agree that the Quran says that you'll be sharing heaven with Jews? Do they also get rivers of wine and 72 virgins? |
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asymptote
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 62
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Martini wrote: |
| So, do the other muslims here agree that the Quran says that you'll be sharing heaven with Jews? |
From the two verses I read on this post, yes.
| Martini wrote: |
| Do they also get rivers of wine and 72 virgins? |
Sorry, my knowledge isn't big enough to answer that. You should get an answer from someone else. |
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Immanuel
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 1106
Location: Dar-El-Harb
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Martini wrote: |
| Quote: |
Originally posted by Immanuel
The later verses follows the first ones, thus abrogating them. |
So, you believe that the Qu'ran was compiled in some sort of order? You also believes that God changes his mind? |
Indeed God should not change his mind. That's another reason for I think that Islam is utter crap.
Anyway, muslim apologists say that the law of God could not be introduced all at once, but gradually: so at the beginnin Mohammad said
"Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve" (2-62),
Then he said
"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers." (5-72)
one crap + another crap doesn't make a right thing indeed, but that's how those wretched zombies think anyway.
And yes, there is an order for the "revelation" of the Quran, Mughal provided us with it:
| Mugal wrote: |
The Revelational Sequence of the Quranic Suras
The first 86 suras that were allegedly revealed to Muhammad in Makkah in first thirteen years of his mission are as follows.
1) 96
2) 68
3) 73
4) 74
5) 1
6) 111
7) 81
8) 87
9) 92
10) 89
11) 93
12) 94
13) 103
14) 100
15) 108
16) 102
17) 107
18) 109
19) 105
20) 113
21) 114
22) 112
23) 53
24) 80
25) 97
26) 91
27) 85
28) 95
29) 106
30) 101
31) 75
32) 104
33) 77
34) 50
35) 90
36) 86
37) 54
38) 38
39) 7
40) 72
41) 36
42) 25
43) 35
44) 19
45) 20
46) 56
47) 26
48) 27
49) 28
50) 17
51) 10
52) 11
53) 12
54) 15
55) 6
56) 37
57) 31
58) 34
59) 39
60) 40
61) 41
62) 42
63) 43
64) 44
65) 45
66) 46
67) 51
68) 88
69) 18
70) 16
71) 71
72) 14
73) 21
74) 23
75) 32
76) 52
77) 67
78) 69
79) 70
80) 78
81) 79
82) 82
83) 84
84) 30
85) 29
86) 83
The rest 28 of the suras were revealed after Muhammad moved to Madina in the final ten years of his life.
1 or 87) 2 Encourages violence eg see 2/216 etc
2 or 88) 8 Encourages violence eg see the whole sura
3 or 89) 3 Encourages violence eg see 3/169 etc
4 or 90) 33 Encourages violence eg see 33/22 etc
5 or 91) 60 Encourages violence eg see 60/1
6 or 92) 4 Encourages violence eg see 4/75
7 or 93) 99
8 or 94) 57 Encourages violence eg see 57/10
9 or 95) 47 Encourages violence eg see the whole sura
10 or 96) 13
11 or 97) 55
12 or 98) 76
13 or 99) 65
14 or 100) 98
15 or 101) 59 Encourages violence eg see 59/2 etc
16 or 102) 24 Encourages violence eg see 24/53
17 or 103) 22 Encourages violence eg see 22/39
18 or 104) 63 Encourages violence eg 63/8
19 or 105) 58 Encourages violence eg see 58/21
20 or 106) 49 Encourages violence eg 49/15
21 or 107) 66 Encourages violence eg 66/9
22 or 108) 64
23 or 109) 61 Encourages violence eg 61/9
24 or 110) 62
25 or 111) 48 Encourages violence eg 48/29 etc
26 or 112) 5 Encourages violence eg 5/25,38 etc
27 or 113) 9 Encourages violence, read the whole sura
28 or 114) 110 Encourages violence, read the whole sura
The question is, how many of these 28 suras talk of jihad or violence etc against nonmuslims by muslims? Why such jihad or violence was not encouraged against nonmuslims the while Muhammad was in Makkah? Does this not clearly show that jihad is not a defensive war but an offensive war because if jihad had been mere preaching the quran or fighting against evil within oneself and or defensive war then these suras too could have been revealed in Makkah, for that is what Muhammad ought to preach to help people become better persons.
All such suras as contain verses with terms related to violence against nonmuslims, looting them, enslaving them or about expansion of islamic empire etc etc are found in last 28 suras. There has to be another reason for that than peace, nonviolence or defense. |
_________________
-------------------
JESUS is my Lord, true Man and true God!
Last edited by Immanuel on Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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