On the verge

[Mahmud]

Hi people!
My name is Mahmud. I’m a Moroccan from Holland and currently working in a news agency in Russian Federation.
I like your site, guys. I decided to leave Islam and I’m on the verge. I have some doubts.

Why I want to leave Islam
1) I didn’t know that the Quran is so violent
2) I know that the majority of terrorists are Muslims
3) I love ‘western values’
4) Dutch women have much more rights (yeah, they have similar rights in Holland but my father for example sometimes beats my mum when she disobeys).
5) I want to choose a bride myself
6) I want to be in a relationship that is based on equality. When you are slaving yourself at work and your wife is stuck in the kitchen, it’s simply impossible
7) I think Islam doesn’t agree with western democracy
I don’t think infidels will go to Hell. I know many unbelievers that are MUCH better than Muslims
Why I am still uncertain
1) I don’t want to betray my family
2) I’m afraid of Hell
3) I’m afraid to be killed
4) I’m proud to be a Moroccan

So there are fewer reasons for not leaving Islam but they are very important to me
I’m tired of being on the verge so I decided to leave or not leave Islam in a week. If I go to mosque next Friday, I will remain Muslim. If I don’t go to mosque, I will not be a Muslim.
Non-Muslims can convince me to leave Islam, and Muslims can convince to remain a Muslim. I’m pretty open-minded. But dear Muslims, don’t try to brainwash me as I’m a real Muslim who has read Quran in Arabic. Also let’s speak not only about theory but also about practical Islam. Right?

Suggestion if I have to become a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu etc are also welcome. I don’t think I will be able to remain an atheist.

Thanks

[hedonism]

Hi Mahmud, I can't and won't tell you what to do. You need to decide it for yourself. You have to see what makes you more happy: leaving Islam or staying a Muslim? Then base your decision on that.

I never understood why religion is sometimes more important to a family than family itself. Why does a family betray a family member for leaving the religion? It's stupid. It's just a religion. And religion is nothing you inherit, it's not a genetic thing. Every single person should have the right to choose the religion she/he likes.

[DarkOcean]

Mahmud,

First of all, congratulations on your brave decision to leave the cult of Islam.

You said you are proud to be Moroccan, and that's a good thing-- you have a lot to be proud of! But if I were in your situation, I would try to think more and maybe research about the real, original culture of Morocco, before the Arabs came there and brought Islam with them. In many countries that are now Muslim, the original culture was not Islamic at all. Iran, Iraq, Libya, Bangladesh, etc.--- all of these countries had beautiful, unique cultures of their own before Islam destroyed them. There is more to your country than Islam. Try to find out what is the real Morocco.

Besides, being a non-Muslim does not mean you can't be proud of your country. If you decide to leave Islam, you will still stay a Moroccan. You will stay a Moroccan till the day you die, no matter what you believe in-- no one can take your country away from you.

I would also like to say that I think you should give yourself more time than just one week. This is a very big decision. You need to research and think a lot about what YOU want. Give yourself more time.

I wish I knew what to tell you about your family. I hope you will do what is right for you and stay safe. I know you will be putting your life in danger by leaving Islam (this is one of the reasons I hate Islam-- it is extremely intolerant toward other people's opinions). Whatever you do, keep safe.

Good luck, and take care.

[jonny2mad]

1) I don’t want to betray my family
2) I’m afraid of Hell
3) I’m afraid to be killed
4) I’m proud to be a Moroccan

you have two aspects of your family your parents and brothers and sisters ,but also your possible future children. if you stay a muslim you will end up bringing your kids up as muslims.
I think this will be betraying them

I dont know if there is a god or not but if there is I believe he would have a higher standard of morality than most people .
the god in islamic scripture has a lower standard of morality than I would follow therefore I think hes false .

we dont have modern armys making people slaves or sex slaves and we didnt need to have that happen in the time of mohammed .

a god that would punish you for not believing in him because you didnt believe in lets say rapeing captives, or in making people slaves, or beating women isnt worthy of your respect or fear .

well you can keep a low profile as much as you can, the government in holland wont get you, its only other muslims, your a free man its up to you what to do .

being Moroccans fine, people were living in Morocco before islam and they will live there after islam .
Islam as a religion trys its best to wipe out the history of religions that existed in a country before it took over but there was a culture there

I wish you all the best of luck

[mohdatif_2000]

[doubtless]

[doubtless]

[ibn_rushd2]

Hi Mahmud. Nice to meet you. A good book on the history of North Africa, from pre-history to now, is Traveller's History. It's very good, lots of maps, and descriptions of life and times. I urge you to read it. You get the indigenous, then Carthage, then Roman times, then Christianity, then various Islamic groups until today. One big blood bath.

As to being Moroccan, that does not mean being Muslim. There are still the indigenous there today: Berbers. They are Moroccan. As for your family, perhaps some of your own family right now is having doubts, but keep it secret. As for your future children, maybe they don't want to be Muslim, but if you pretend and raise them that way, then they are doomed too, and suffer the same as you. When you have them, don't raise them with anything, just skepticism and critical thinking. That's what matters.

I wish you luck. I've been to your country, and it's nice.

[liberate_ur_mind]

Hello mahmud!
Good to see more and more and Moroccans becoming aware of the hoax that is Islam. Although the large majority (99% or something) are still "registered" as muslims, over the last couple of years I have come across so many Moroccans who were seriously considering leaving Islam.
The best advice I can give is take all the time you need. Another metaphor I like using is that you have chosen to eat from the forbidden tree of knowledge, something most Muslims are too scared to do because they believe it's Satan who's making this tree look appealing!

This website is very good for expanding your knowledge, it has some excellent articles on the Quran, Hadith etc... but I also encourage you to have a look at pro-Islamic sites such as Answering-Christianity and compare for yourself. That's exactly what I did and that's how I made my decision to leave Islam.

Like Doubtless pointed out, being free means always asking questions, raising doubts etc...
No matter what decision you make, you will always have doubts as to whether you made the right choice. In this forum you'll find a nice mixture of ex-muslims, traditional muslims, quran-only muslims, atheists, christians etc... you will learn a lot by engaging in discussions with them and exchanging ideas.

Welcome to humanity and "thella a khai"
_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass destruction.

[WesternCanuck]

Our Dear friend Mahmud.......congrats on being so brave and honest.....you are on the right course.........Remember to use discretion and wisdom in your new path!!

And as Ibn Rushd pointed out, Morrocco has peoples that are Christians and Sephardic Jews......and certainly before Islam ever arrived there their were many Christians and Jews indeed!!

As to what you should do next.........continue being honest in your heart and mind.......God Almighty will reveal himself too you if you honestly seek him!!

From Devon in Calgary

[jonny2mad]

This may sound crazy, but its what I do if I have something on my mind

I go sit close to nature, sometimes I go off and camp and sit by a small fire all night, sometimes I climb a tree and sit in it

Im kinda interested in shamanism so I have done this with shamanic plants (like magic mushrooms )but you dont need to and I wouldnt advise doing that sort of thing now .

red indians used to do a lot of this kind of thing, jesus if you read the bible went off into the wilderness for forty days and nights you find it in lots of cultures .

seek simplicity get close to nature ,maybe some solitude and a bit of short hermiting ,Ive done this sort of thing in my back garden ,near stone circles, in forests, beaches all are good

I dont know how this would work about the having a deadline thing, and be careful you dont go out and do this and freeze as your in russia.

there may be some websites on retreats, or vision quests, shamanism, native american, do some web searching if interested and see what turns up

once again good luck

[Mahmud]

[kufr0929]

Dear Mahmud ,

I encourage you to leave the cult of islam.

pick up a Quran and read the following
verses:2:191,3:28,3:85,5:10,5:34,9:5,
9:28,9:29,9:123,14:17,22:9,25:52,47:4, and 66:9, you
will get your answer. They all promote hatred and
violence against non-muslims. A person who believes
the Quran to be God's words, and has read and believes
in, these verses, is thus a terrorist , atleast in
mind, if not in practice. It is another matter that
most muslims are totally ignorant of what is really in
their scriptures and their history books. They
continue to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion
; and the knowledgable religious leadership wants it
that way because exposing them to the reality will
result in losses in mosque attendance and fund
collection from gullible muslims. Most effective way
to fight this islamic terrorism , instead of spending
billions in wars and weapons, is exposing the truth to
the world and stop being politically correct. Please
support courageous people like Ali Sina
(http://www.faithfreedom.org) and Ibn Warraq
(http://www.secularislam.org).

Do you believe in equal rights for everybody? If, so you cannot agree with the koran:
would muslims accept to check a box in their income tax form and pay an extra
$2000/yr if they are muslim? This is what koran (09/29) instructs them to do to
others.

QUESTION:WHAT WOULD MUSLIMS SAY IF THE BOOK OF ANOTHER RELIGION REVEALED TO THEIR PROFIT Mickey Mouse BY THEIR F FICTITIOUS SUPREME FASCIST Minnie Mouse SAYS:

Fight those who believe not in Minnie Mouse nor the Last Day, nor hold that
forbidden which hath been forbidden by Minnie Mouse and Her Messenger Mickey
Mouse, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) muslim,
until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This is from quran :
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029
009.029

YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that
forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor
acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the
Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves
subdued.

Avoiding jizya payments is the reason why your ancestors became muslim.

Do you like paying 5000 Euros jizya tax/year in Nederlands and feel yourself
subdued or you prefer equal rights for everybody?

Once more again, let us analyze the following section:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005
009.005

YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then
fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and
seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them
in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and
establish regular prayers and practise regular
charity, then open the way for
them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


what I find disturbing about this section is if you
have 2 people x1 and x2, where x1 is a pagan and x2 is
a muslim, then section 9/5 says in a very
straightforward way to kill x1 and spare the life of
x2, even if they are identical in every other aspect.
This goes against the concept of equal rights
for everybody. It definitely contradicts the United
Nations declaration of Human Rights.

QUESTION:WHAT WOULD MUSLIMS SAY IF THE BOOK OF ANOTHER
RELIGION REVEALED TO THEIR PROFIT BY THEIR F
FICTITIOUS SUPREME FASCIST SAYS:

(note: F can be any adjective of your choice !!)
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and
slay the Muslims wherever ye find them, and seize
them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in
every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and
establish regular
prayers and practise regular charity, then open the
way for them: for the F fictitious supreme fascist is
Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

(note:the regular prayer and the regular charity are
ACCORDING TO the "revelation" of the F FICTITIOUS
SUPREME FASCIST of the OTHER religion)

I find these 2 sections( Koran 9/5 and Koran 9/29 ) to
be a direct invitation to fascism, colonialism,
imperialism and genocide.

from analyzing those 2 previous sections, I conclude
that all it takes is 2 religions with something like
those 2 previous sections ( Koran 9/5 and Koran 9/29
) to ensure a state of perpetual warfare on the planet
earth

I find these 2 sections( Koran 9/5 and Koran 9/29 )
sufficient to reject the Koran as a source of morality
and ethics among the inhabitants of the planet.

Some people object to our arguments and claim we are
using them out of context, but they fail to provide
under which context these sections are valid. We
cannot find any context under which these sections can
be valid.
These and many other violent sections of the Koran
have NO place in inter human relations.

It would be constructive to compare these 2 sections(
Koran 9/5 and Koran 9/29) to the following Bill of
Cyrus the Great, King of Iran, sixth century B.C.
found at http://www.cfiwest.org/newhorizons:

Freedom and tolerance of thought, speech, religion;
choice of place of residence, coming and going, jobs
and professions, will be on equal terms and conditions
for everyone.

No inquiry, injustice or harassment is allowed to be
done to anyone.

In this way Cyrus says that I have sown the seed of
amity, friendship and affection among nations and have
granted the people peace of mind, security,
tranquility and comfort.



THE RULES OF THE RAMADAN FASTING REVEAL AN IGNORANCE OF THE GEOGRAPHY OF THE EARTH:

The rules instruct the believers to abstain from food and water from sunrise
to sunset. The problem is once you cross the Arctic circle going north (the
area between the North pole and 67N) or the Antarctic circle going south (the
area between the south pole and 67S) sunrise to sunset in certain periods of
the year becomes greater than 2 days, the extreme case being in the North pole
and the South pole where sunrise to sunset is 6 months. I conclude that the
author of these rules is ignorant of the geography of the earth, thus these
rules cannot come from the "creator" of the earth.

Thought Control quran style:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.144

Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your
friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves ?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.028

Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than
believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by
way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions
you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.


These verses clearly states that a Muslim can only befriend a Muslim. Mohammed
in order to ensure that his followers will not befriend and get influenced by
people of other religions, revealed this verse. This verse illustrates that if
a Muslim befriends a Non-Muslim than the wrath of Allah will be on him.
Therefore in Islam, people of other religions should be treated with
contempt,disrespect and cruelty.

check also
http://www.secularislam.org
http://www.secularislam.org/jihad
from http://www.secularislam.org/guide

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/oldarchives/shk_interview.html
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/oldarchives/tsas1.html
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/oldarchives/tsas2.html
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/bookstore/bookrev/fad.html
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/anwarshaikh/articles.html
http://www.cfiwest.org/newhorizons/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/main.htm

The book " why I am not a Muslim " by Ibn Warraq, a former Muslim, is an
excellent antidote to the politically correct but factually incorrect media.
http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_am_not_muslim.htm

Also, look at http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=362
Epicurus did not need any religion 2200 years ago.
He correctly said there are no gods or the gods have nothing to do with how
the world works.

Also, according to modern science people who hear voices and claim it is from a deity have schizophrenia.

Also, Moroccans are amazigh/berber they were conquered by force by arabs
690-700 . Your heroes should be koceila and kahenna the jewish berber queen, who refused to bow to arab imperialism.

May Reason protect us from faith.
Visualize that Skepticism is a virtue and that faith is NOT.

[Ali Sina]

[PeaceOnEarth]