Quoting Ali Sina on Barack H. Obama: Ali's Muslimness

[IoshkaFutz]

Ciao Sally,

Firstly, I am uncomfortable with the idea of accusing anybody who has left Islam of being a "closet muslim". It strikes me as below the belt.

Precisely. But in the case of Ali Sina it's worse. Because though he owns the place, which has been up and operating for years and has representatives of of every faith and non-faith imaginable, he has kept his role as just a forummer among others.

Regardless of his position on - for example Homosexuality... when that topic was the rage here, Homosexuality got dicussed by Homosexuals and libertarians. Despite his position on Obama, Obama got discused and was defended by his supporters every step of the way. Nobody was trolled out, nobody received the treatment that would've been meted out at Free Republic by Conservatives to liberals, or Democratic Underground by liberals to Conservatives... everybody had his say... EVERYBODY.

So if that is not proof of a love of democracy, of freedom of thought and expression, nothing is. If that does not rub against the grain of an Islamic or para-Islamic mindset then nothing does.

What's the saying? The proof is in the pudding? FFI is the pudding! And remember that this site is dedicated to casus belli issues. Mostly religion and politics and so keeping it together so well and for so long, through raging battles is no easy trick.

The truth of the matter is that as far as the forum is concerned there is no editorial line... like a mirror it entirely reflects what's out there. If 101 liberals were to join up tomorrow, FFI would reflect that addition. As far as a debating forum is concerned, you couldn't ask for better.

And now this guy gets accused of being a closet Muslim? Now I read: "In fact I fail to see what is NOT typically Muslim about Ali Sina" when every Muslim country is totalitarian, oppressive, murderous of free thought.

The Cat talks about Ali's "Fatwas"... I vaguely remember a Fatwa against Salmon Rushdie that sent the man hiding and in fear of his life. But now, if one is to accept The Cat's definition of "Fatwa" and "Ayatollah" Rushdie could be living in Iran and freely participating on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog! In fact, he could even start a thread there accusing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of being a Closet Jew.

No way, Josè! I don't buy half of Ali Sina's ideas or outlooks, but I'll give credit where credit is due... and I still know what a Fatwa is and what Imams and Ayatollahs are about... I wouldn't let my disagreement with Ali Sina blind me to the fact that he tolerated my disagreement and in fact welcomed it, if for no other reason than to continue the discourse. And so creating such a thread as this, is really dishonest and a kick to the cojones, a scratch to the face to one who has better democratic bonafides than even plenty of American forums and certainly better than the BBC forum or what is now happening in Canada.

So argue away... in fact, I'm not even interested in all those quotations that are being presented as some sort of proof that Ali is a Closet Musim, or a Fascist, or wrongminded about this or that.

I've participated on 100 page threads and read every word of them and have failed to see oppressive, totalitarian behavior on the part of its owner. Instead I've seen him going out on a limb with his ideas and getting hell left and right, just as I've gotten hell left and right for some of my convictions.

So the Cat's "Imam Sinas" or "Ayatollah Sinas" or Bob's failure to see what is NOT typically Muslim about Ali Sina reflect those forummers' emotionally blind reaction to disagreement about this or that issue. "He disagrees with me, so I'll call him the worst thing possible, I'll say that he's imbued with what he has spent his life and treasure fighting" though everything about his little brainchild and his comportment on it, points diametrically to the opposite direction: freedom, diversity and yes, even the humility of being just a forummer among forummers, the opposite of a Fatwa-issuing Imam, the opposite of a Muslim... and believe me, I know what I'm talking about because I've participated on at least a dozen Islamic forums... and at all of them either got kicked out or received sweet little messages from the moderators, telling me to tone it down.

Do you feel the cold chill here of a Central Scrutinizer breathing down your neck? You'll only feel what you're supposed to feel on a debating forum, the heat and passion of debate. Otherwise you're paranoid.

So, excuse me, if a guy like me who's been here since 2002 gets hopping mad at the sight of this deeply insulting thread. I have not seen a Closet Muslim at work here, but a true blue patriot of free throught and expression. And even if while arguing with him personally about topic "A" or "B" or "C" I saw some logical fallacy or attitude that might be shared in parts of the Ummah, I'd simply tell him so, without accusing him of being a Muslim in disguise.

So where are the Fatwas, where is the Ayatollish persecution? Who's been silenced, unjustly banned, what topics have been forbidden? You'd be hard pressed to find them and they'd be borderline cases of outright silliness, insult or pornography. Perfection is not of this world and perfect freedom might even be a contradiction in terms, but overall FFI has always lived up to its promise... so this has nothing to do with Obama or Sexual morals, but entirely with the dishonesty and illiberality of the complainers.
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</islam> Whenever you guys shout "Allah Akbar" I find myself ducking for the floor - Haik Monsieur

[charleslemartel]

Hello Loshka,

And now this guy gets accused of being a closet Muslim? Now I read: "In fact I fail to see what is NOT typically Muslim about Ali Sina" when every Muslim country is totalitarian, oppressive, murderous of free thought.

The Cat talks about Ali's "Fatwas"... I vaguely remember a Fatwa against Salmon Rushdie that sent the man hiding and in fear of his life. But now, if one is to accept The Cat's definition of "Fatwa" and "Ayatollah" Rushdie could be living in Iran and freely participating on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog! In fact, he could even start a thread there accusing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of being a Closet Jew.

And it is being done by a person who supposedly defends liberalism. It means you have absolutely no compunction when you are striking at someone, who was your hero till yesterday, because he does not endorse all of your views. You take the advantage of the freedom of dissent and name calling to denigrate the very provider of that freedom. Is it not what Muslims are doing in the west?

bob talked of the MODE. When the definitions used by him to accuse Ali of being a closet Muslim are shown to equally applicable to any of the other people, we are now supposed to analyze and dissect the MODE. I did not take up this MODE business because once this too is shown to be fallacious, may be we will be required to directly peep in to the psyche or the remotest corners of the heart of Ali. Is it not what Muslims are doing in the debates everywhere? You debunk a verse, you will be asked to talk of context. You take the context in to account and debunk a verse yet again, and then you will be asked to learn Arabic.

I am just wondering if Ali Sina really comes up and declares that he is a "closet Muslim" indeed. What will those who are accusing him of being the same will do next? Isn't it fortunate that he is incognito?

This is really marvellous. Obama has become far more important than Muhammad. His glib talk has become far more sacred than ahadith. But it shows where your priorities lie, doesn't it?
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Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

[bob]

charleslemartel writes

[IoshkaFutz]

[The Cat]

[IoshkaFutz]

Ciao The Cat,

Wife beating, really tight circular reasoning, automatic hostility towards Jews, consideration of women as property, dislike of dogs, fatalism, draconiam punishments, keen worry about Obama... dedicating ones life and treasure to exposing Islam.

Now here's a difficult question, two of the above considerations of a list that could be much longer, might be incorrect. See if your enlightenment principles allow you the mental elasticity to guess which ones they might be.

Ali's Muslimness is a figment of your imagination. He's a thinking man and you happen to dislike some of this thoughts. Those thoughts that you dislike are shared by a great multitude of people. They are hot topics on the arena of thought. But from there to shout "Muslim! Muslim!" against the operator of one of the world's premiere anti-Islamic sites there should be a Grand Canyon of other considerations.

Now for your homework, seeing as you really need some basic schooling in Common Sense, start up another thread and list those things in which Ali Sina lacks that terrible Muslimness.

It might be difficult, because as Bob of Enlightenment Paris who is rarely wrong about anything, said: "In fact I fail to see what is NOT typically Muslim about Ali Sina"...

Let's see if I can help you. He likes prosciutto e melone and wine, with women he's a goofy romantic. He abhors Mohammad. Take it from there...

Now you say:
That's why we have at FFI...... -an entire Main-...... called: ''Effects of Islam''

And then an entire submain called ''The Effect of Islam on Muslims''. Therein we should talk about butterflies I presume, so not to post anything 'under the belt'.

I kindly draw your attention to what is under that submain:

"Honour killing, human rights abuses of Muslims, poverty caused by Islam"

I also kindly bid you to open that thread and see how this ueber-crappy thread you've created sticks out like a dog turd on a carpet:

She married Hindu, parents cut her into 11 pieces!
Iran: the stonings continue
Why don’t Muslims use their brains?
Pakistan: Culture of Hate
Bomb sniffing police dogs also offend Muslims.
Muslims outraged by picture of cute puppy.
Quoting Ali Sina on Barack H. Obama: Ali's Muslimness

God almighty, I hate smilies...but to express the full depth of my contempt for this thread of yours... here:


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</islam> Whenever you guys shout "Allah Akbar" I find myself ducking for the floor - Haik Monsieur

[Psycho Bunny]

[Psycho Bunny]

[IoshkaFutz]

[IoshkaFutz]

[Psycho Bunny]

[The Cat]

[IoshkaFutz]

Ciao Bunny,

What Ali Sina said about Obama is not our concern on this thread. I already told you that while I agreed with his dislike of Obama, I disagreed with his psycho-approach, but my medieval mind allows him full expression of it... without a thread dedicated to his persona.

He owns the place and yet in here he is a forummer among forummers and as such I believe he should be treated.

Some (you included apparently) think it's fair to treat him the way he treated Obama, but Obama is a public figure and therefore a natural topic of discussion.

Ali Sina is a fellow forummer. He is not a news item, he is forummer like you. He is Bob, he is The Cat, He is I, a forummer, period. I think it's even scribbled somewhere in the DAO that we are not to be topics of discussion. Threads like "Here is Proof that Bunny is a Real Stinker" are a no-no. I vaguely remember ancient discussions about this with you.

But never mind. Now I might as well proceed to CREATE a whole thread entitled: the "Muslimness of Bunny" or the "Muslimness of Bob" or "The Muslimness of The Cat" and pick out some quotes to support my view (I can easily find them if I bothered)... and then I'll add them here on top of "Hindu man who marries Muslim Girl cut into eleven pieces" or "Stoning in Iran" or "Iran executes children regularly."

Happy?

Again I bring to your attention the full title of this thread, the one that momentarily made The Cat go emotional with 3 rolling smilies... Lucky him!):

TITLE: The Effect of Islam on Muslims
SUBTITLE: Honour killing, human rights abuses of Muslims, poverty caused by Islam

Leave it to the Enlightenment of Paris to add "modes of thought" to "Honour killing, human rights abuses of Muslims, poverty caused by Islam" so as to handily include anyone (even one who is NOT - I repeat NOT - a Muslim, but an EX-muslim) whose arguments do not jibe with ones own... and this - mind you - after hundreds of pages of participation on the dedicated threads.

Horror of horrors, poor Huxley might even be tempted to leave FFI again - I read elsewhere - because of Ali Sina's opinions... and yet probably about a fourth of those posts are his... meaning to my Medieval / Rennaissance / Movie Magic mind that he had a thoroughly good time... and that if instead of saying thank you, he walks out in disgust because of Ali Sina's opinions, then he cannot tolerate difference of opinion (naturally, he'd probably call it intolerance of stupidity and pretend to be worried about Ali's health).

This is the new "tough love" way of rationalism and enlightenment. Argument is not enough, now ones forum adversaries need to be thoroughly examined and cured.

The same goes for you guys. Instead of saying thank you, for a rollicking good time - because forums are ALL about arguing and that is exactly what you (pl) and Ali Sina did, you now throw mud. And you put a fellow forummer "guilty" of disagreement, right smack dab in the middle of wild-eyed Pakistani fanatics who throw acid on women's faces and Somali cab drivers who refuse blind patrons on account of their seeing-eye dogs.

And then you proceed with low-budget analyses of why he thinks the way he does, subscribing to the point of view that most people cannot escape the influences of their upbringing and so he's in the throes of his Shiite background. Just as the poor Pakistani fanatic and the Somali cabby couldn't help it (and cannot change), so too Ali Sina!

Hey, go for it... Help yourselves. Fine. I expect to see others, perhaps Mindstorm, Piggy, myself, CharlesMartel and maybe Sum also in this section with threads dedicated to why we can't help thinking the way we do, how we are mentally deformed by our backgrounds and professions.

It's the "enlightened" approach... instead of the old fashioned (Medieval? Renaissance?) duking it out with thesis and counter-thesis. It'll work wonders and open brand new horizons.

Naturally it helps to be born in the right places (i.e. Canada, France and UK). This way - ça va sans dire - one can better transcend the limiting influences of ones upbringing. Only others suffer from this disease.

Then of course when another Iranian or perhaps an ex-Muslim Bengali is found to share the properly enlightened opinion, his past can either be left - conveniently - unconsidered, or he can perhaps be rewarded with a virtual star on his forehead for being indistinguishable from the "better adjusted" human beings who've grown up near Saint-Germain-des-Prés of Paris or Pretoria Avenue of Ottawa or Wind street of Swansea... that is to say, those whose thought processes are more blessedly rational by default.

Wow I wonder how those other Iranians and ex-Muslim Bengalis might have pulled it off - was it merit or miracle? That too could make an excellent topic of discussion! The same background but different outlook!

Or maybe not. Hey! Let's be thoroughly multicultural about this.

Maybe like Ali Sina, Cat couldn't help it either. Because of his background, he simply HAD to open this thread, it is a reflection of the pathetic limitations of his own culture... and so now let us NOT open a brand new thread but a whole BRAND NEW section:

TITLE: The Effect of the Enlightenment on Canadians

SUBTITLE: Smearing fellow forummers, loss of all sense of proportion, the mindless association of dissenting opinion with egregious crimes of Islamic violence.

Beautiful - I see a marvelous future. Forummers no longer talking to one another, but required to tell their stories: place of birth (A COLB will do just fine, don't worry!), religious views, schooling, profession, gender, sexual preference, astrological chart and certified blood, urine, and feces examinations... after which they can express an opinion about any subject, and instead of receiving counter-arguments, they will be told WHY they think that way.

Well Bunny, I see the dirty little ploy of this shameful thread. It's quite obvious. And it isn't pretty. But all is forgiven: The Cat couldn't help himself, just as he no doubt pronounces "about" more like "a boat," it's that Canadian background thingy... and I wish to congratulate his many compatriots here who, despite the mental limitations imposed by the cold north, have somehow managed to show sensibility. loyalty and sense of proportion towards their adversarially inclined fellow forummers. A star on their foreheads and a big thanks for transcending the limitations of their upbringing... despite all the sled dogs snapping at their butts and the ear muffs making them half deaf... they did the right thing! Bravissimi questi canadesi!

BTW Happy New year!
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</islam> Whenever you guys shout "Allah Akbar" I find myself ducking for the floor - Haik Monsieur

[Psycho Bunny]

Oh dear Ioshka

You are using emotive words again, and totally missing the point. Did I use any smearing or venom against Ali? No. It is somewhat pointless attempting to discuss some things with you when you lard your comments with irrelevant hyperbole ("dirty little ploy of this shameful thread") and impute malice ("throwing mud") to posts where no malice is intended. As you have mangled what I said and claim that I am using "low-budget analyses" -

Face it. Until you can post rationally and sensibly without ranting and being unnecessarily dramatic, there is no point in responding point-to-point to such hysteria. If this were a movie from the 1960s, you would probably now be given a large slap to make you regain some sense of composure.
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The Pagaal Chamar Bhangi Khargosh rules!!

Love, bunny-style
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[The Cat]