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Attention: Year 2009 is here
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FinallyFree
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 196
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 Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Farid wrote:
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Enceladus, I would really appreciate it if you kept this on topic and do not divert. But it seems that you made a claim, and that is when you said, "If the Qu'ran is the word of Allah, it must be perfect in all details. Allah would not make mistakes. " Would you be kind enough to provide some evidence that Allah does not or will not make mistakes? "
I am providing proof for Enceladus that Allah claims he would not make mistakes and that he is perfect/all knowing
You asked for proof, I provided
Now stop playing games please.
Take care. |
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Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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salaam,
True that I asked for proof, finallyfree, but what proof did I ask? I asked proof that Allah "does" not or "will" not make mistakes. I did not ask proof of whether Allah made "claims".
Thank you. |
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infidel_01
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1443
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Farid wrote: |
Salaam,
infidel_01, I dont feel we should be talking about why I believe. You can start a new thread. I think we should stay on topic so to be more productive. Anyways, you mean to tell me that even though you know that those "errors" dont mean much, you are still trying to tell them so to perhaps "fool" them? Because I do not see what other reason you would post that because you should know that those things do not prove that the Quran is not from God.
Thank you. |
Don't try to put words in my mouth. Where did I say "those "errors" dont mean much". Read my post again and try one more time to understand I mean.
_________________
It is NOT IMMORAL for muslims to have non-muslims as slaves and sex slaves; But it is definitely IMMORAL for non-Muslims to own Muslim slaves -- Allah Diya, MTD & NAV;
WHY? None could answer  |
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infidel_01
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1443
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Farid wrote: |
salaam,
True that I asked for proof, finallyfree, but what proof did I ask? I asked proof that Allah "does" not or "will" not make mistakes. I did not ask proof of whether Allah made "claims".
Thank you. |
As I said, allah's claim in quran alone is THE proof for many muslims. You may have your own version of understanding islam, but many if not most of the muslims believe that allah can't make mistakes and by the same token, they can see the truth that allah can make mistakes in his own quran contrary to his own claim in the same quran.
_________________
It is NOT IMMORAL for muslims to have non-muslims as slaves and sex slaves; But it is definitely IMMORAL for non-Muslims to own Muslim slaves -- Allah Diya, MTD & NAV;
WHY? None could answer |
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Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: |
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Salaam,
I still do not get why you would want to make a flyer when you know the "error" do not prove much.
Thank you. |
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enceladus
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Farid wrote: |
Salaam,
I still do not get why you would want to make a flyer when you know the "error" do not prove much.
Thank you. |
Ahhh... nice to be back from my little holiday..... Nothing like getting back onto FFI again.... 
On the topic of gods making (or not making) mistakes -
First, a clarification. The statement that "gods would not make mistakes" is (of course) an assumption. It is an assumption that (it would be fair to say) the vast majority of people would support (and no, I do not have figures to support that).
However.....
Gods are invoked by pretty much all religions (except Buddhism) in order to explain things which people find difficult to accept other explanations for.
A good example is the creationist / evolution debate.
Christians (and those of other religions too) find it difficult to understand how things that they believe to be "perfect" could have come about. So, they go for the easy option and invoke a "god" to explain them.
This supports my assumption above - the assumption being that "it would take a (presumably) "perfect" god to create "perfect things" ".
Finally, it does not take a genius to work out that given that the Quran contains many discrepancies, it is far more likely to have been the product ot a person rather than a "god" ( the assumption being that people are far more likely to make mistakes than a "god" would be. )
Ok, now I have presented my side of things. Now it is Farid's turn.
Let's see Farid put his case that a supposedly "all-knowing" god like Allah does or could make mistakes...... |
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Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Salaam,
Dear enceladus, my question has not been adequately answered. You say that God is perfect because of the perfect creation. Yet you say that it is a presumption. Dear enceladus, we can go about wildly with presumptions, so lets focus on what evidence we have. So I will restate my question to refocus the topic.
Will you please show any evidence that Allah "will" or "does" not make any mistakes? Or if you wish, will you show evidence that God "does" not or "will" not make any mistakes?
Thank you. |
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Farid wrote: |
Salaam,
Dear enceladus, my question has not been adequately answered. You say that God is perfect because of the perfect creation. Yet you say that it is a presumption. Dear enceladus, we can go about wildly with presumptions, so lets focus on what evidence we have. So I will restate my question to refocus the topic.
Will you please show any evidence that Allah "will" or "does" not make any mistakes? Or if you wish, will you show evidence that God "does" not or "will" not make any mistakes?
Thank you. |
I do not have any evidence that Allah "will" or "does" not make any mistakes or that God "does" not or "will" not make any mistakes. So I will assume that Allah is prone to making mistakes.
Is this a satisfactory answer to your question?
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone
Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational? |
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enceladus
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Farid wrote: |
Salaam,
Dear enceladus, my question has not been adequately answered.
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Fine, that is your belief, no problem....
Let's hear your side of things....
| Farid wrote: |
You say that God is perfect because of the perfect creation.
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No. I said that religions find it necessary to invoke a "god" in order to explain things that people see as "perfect".
| Farid wrote: |
Yet you say that it is a presumption.
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No, an assumption. Please read what is posted...
| Farid wrote: |
Dear enceladus, we can go about wildly with presumptions,
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.... or procrastinations ......
| Farid wrote: |
so lets focus on what evidence we have. So I will restate my question to refocus the topic.
Will you please show any evidence that Allah "will" or "does" not make any mistakes? Or if you wish, will you show evidence that God "does" not or "will" not make any mistakes?
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I am perfectly focussed....
My evidence consists of my previous posts, and this one. Is that clear enough for you?
Ok, now my evidence (and that given by others) has already been posted. However, since you seem to be blind, here is a summary of it....
Point One -
The alleged-to-exist "Allah" is a "god". He is supposed to be "all-knowing".
Point Two (Definition) -
"All-knowing" means that he would know of all possible mistakes and all possible ways to prevent those mistakes. If he did NOT, then he would not be "all-knowing". Not exactly rocket-science....
I would LOVE to know how an "all-knowing" deity could or would make mistakes, given that he would have the knowledge to prevent all of them.
Point Three - Logical Conclusion -
Ok. Now, given the above (that the all-knowing Allah knows of all possible mistakes and ways to prevent them) - it is not difficult at all to reach the logical conclusion that Allah would not make mistakes (given that he would know of all ways to prevent them).
There. I have finished - repeat, finished - putting my case. Do you understand?
Once again. LET'S SEE YOUR SIDE OF THINGS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? |
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sword_of_truth
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Salaam,
I still do not get why you would want to make a flyer when you know the "error" do not prove much.
Thank you. |
Au contraire.
First off, proving that the Quran is not infallible is a HUGE achievement. The infallibility of the Quran is one of the worst doctrines in Islam.
Who cares about Islam? Islam is just a religion. I don't care about Islam. I care about human rights, and the only reason I care about Islam is that it violates human rights. Islam is only the carrier of the real problems. If the problems can be eliminated than Islam could be just like any other religion. The trouble is, that's not what most muslims would refer to as Islam. It wouldn't be Islam anymore.
If the Quran is open to questioning that is a huge achievement. Why do you assume we have some sort of all-or-nothing attitude towards Islam?
Secondly, if Allah is capable of creating the universe, then it seems plausible that he would know that the sky is not like a canopy, just like most of the ancient people thought. So, you have to ask what kind of errors. Of course, he could be just using metaphor. But I think it's much more plausible that it's just Muhammed's alter-ego speaking. You have to pick the most plausible explanation. Not just a possible explanation.
Thirdly, if someone thinks that Allah made errors, that could be the first step to more and more questioning and doubts. |
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