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18:86 setting of sun in muddy spring...
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Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> The Quran and Hadith

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ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:45 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

as you can see, only the fluent and very well versed Arabic speakers may know these things

Salam

True. But here I find Arabic of Quran being discussed by posters using translations by Shakir, Pickthall and others. That is just not right.

Those who do not know will distort courtesy English.
_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:48 am Post subject:

Musti wrote:

ghostbusting wrote:

Haik Monsieur wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

why don't you show me the Arabic word for PLACE in flawed translation you brought in (setting-place )?

Mind if I?

Quran says:

Zul Qarnain followed a road till he reached ............ (I leave it blank for time being)
and found sun setting in a murky pond.

Now, fill out the sentence. Where should have Zul Qarnain reached if he followed a ROAD?

KhaliL

Mind if I ask a question?

Where does Quran mention the word ROAD?

018.085
PICKTHAL: And he followed a road

What do have other translators to say? "And he followed a road", is it? I am sure I did not address that question to you.
_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:00 am Post subject:

Musti wrote:

From Al Tabari vol 1:

Then he said: For the sun and the moon, He created easts and wests (positions to rise and set) on the two sides of the earth and the two rims of heaven, 180 SPRINGS IN THE WEST OF BLACK CLAY – THIS IS (MEANT BY) GOD'S WORD: "He found it setting in a muddy spring," meaning by "muddy (hami'ah)" black clay - and 180 springs IN THE EAST LIKEWISE OF BLACK CLAY, bubbling and boiling like a pot when it boiled furiously.

Is the Black Sea black and the Dead Sea dead?
_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:21 am Post subject:

Haik Monsieur wrote:

_______________

ghostbusting wrote:

Haik Monsieur wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

why don't you show me the Arabic word for PLACE in flawed translation you brought in (setting-place )?

Mind if I ask a question?

Where does Quran mention the word ROAD?

Musti has answered you, but I would add my two cents too.

Oh… again Musti has covered this too. There is the thing called CONTEXT.

Follow Quran and of course in context. Zul Qarnain’s story is narrated by Muhammad in Quran.

They ask you of Zul Qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story." [Quran 18:83]
Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.[18:84]
One (such) way he followed, [18:85]
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-Qarnain! either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." [Quran 18:86]

Read the verses in context. Muhammad speaks of Zul Qarnain. Allah assigned him the power on EARTH, and gave ways. Zul Qarnain followed such a way until he reached the setting place of sun.

Now, let the Quran expert who has patented Arabic language come up and clear this confusion. Zul Qarnain followed a way and reached a place to find sun setting in murky spring. Where should Zul Qarnain reach if he followed a way? Should he reach a time frame? Does it take following any path to reach the setting time of sun? Are you always journeying because you want to reach the sun set time?

Or Any other Quran experts? Come on guys... show guts to quote the verses in context. The story does not end up there, because Zul Qarnain finds people and been informed of two tribes called Gog and Magog. He erects a wall to confine them behind it. If anyone follows Quran chapter 18 from verses 83 to 99 it can be confirmed the whole story is utterly superstitious. Zul Qarnain follows many paths and reaches many places. At one place he witnessed to the pathetic end of the bright star setting in a muddy pond. Then he witnessed to the same star rising up again.., not to forget he had to follow another path to reach that place.

So, why can’t Quran experts and Arabic language patent holders come up and meet this challenge? Come on guys….be honest to quote your book in CONTEXT.

In Q.

KhaliL

There is one more word in English which most here have not yet mentioned for بَلَغَ . I have to exclude Ahmed here as he knows his stuff well and others simply don't.

What is your understanding of the following words in those verses?

مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ and مَطْلِعَ الشَّمْسِ

Please describe the meanings of both in two simple words in English and the words should not have more than nine letters. If anyone can do that, I will give another word in English for بَلَغَ .
_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

Nosubmission

Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Human flesh

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:15 am Post subject:

ghostbusting wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

as you can see, only the fluent and very well versed Arabic speakers may know these things

Salam

True. But here I find Arabic of Quran being discussed by posters using translations by Shakir, Pickthall and others. That is just not right.

Those who do not know will distort courtesy English.

... and those who PRETEND to know a lot about the Arabic grammar write irrelevant posts and ignore the context of the Koran, distorting it for the sake of its defense.

_________________
I am choosing not to submit either willingly or reluctantly. Catch me if you can!

ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject:

Nosubmission wrote:

ghostbusting wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

as you can see, only the fluent and very well versed Arabic speakers may know these things

Salam

True. But here I find Arabic of Quran being discussed by posters using translations by Shakir, Pickthall and others. That is just not right.

Those who do not know will distort courtesy English.

... and those who PRETEND to know a lot about the Arabic grammar write irrelevant posts and ignore the context of the Koran, distorting it for the sake of its defense.

Well, one should then ask them to stick to the context and explain in simple words.
_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

Haik Monsieur

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject:

ghostbusting wrote:

What are you talking man? Why on earth?
You want me to define Arabic words and they should not exceed nine letters? I have not appied for a job in your esteemed organization. Don't give me online tests please.

Why 9? I think 19 would be better because there is a magnificent 19 in Quran which tremendously helped the humankind, though the guy who discovered this miraculous 19 had to submit his life to his own breathren for the same reason..?!!

Read my post again and try to meet the challenge of quoting your book in context. It is not a fallacious prerequisite but it is the way to quote your book and explain things within. Can you quote your book in context and tell us Where Zul Qarnain reached?

KhaliL
_________________
________________________________

ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

ghostbusting wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Looks like we have a prade of ignorant on this thread, let me cheer them with Slam Dunk # 18 which was classified as a mother of slams:

I see that you are the only person on FFI who knows Arabic. The rest of the bunch are reading and commenting based on English translations.

Enjoyed reading your explanation. You know your stuff well.

Have a look at this verse where the word Balagha is used to mean reach a time a frame of 40 years old:

SHAKIR: And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.
[The Quran ; 46:15]

وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا ۖ حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا ۖ وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا ۚ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَبَلَغَ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً قَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ وَأَصْلِحْ لِي فِي ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ إِنِّي تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَإِنِّي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ (15)

Sorry, I missed reading this. True that.

_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

Musti

Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 912

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject:

ghostbusting wrote:

Musti wrote:

From Al Tabari vol 1:

Then he said: For the sun and the moon, He created easts and wests (positions to rise and set) on the two sides of the earth and the two rims of heaven, 180 SPRINGS IN THE WEST OF BLACK CLAY – THIS IS (MEANT BY) GOD'S WORD: "He found it setting in a muddy spring," meaning by "muddy (hami'ah)" black clay - and 180 springs IN THE EAST LIKEWISE OF BLACK CLAY,[b] bubbling and boiling like a pot when it boiled furiously.[/b]

Is the Black Sea black and the Dead Sea dead?

Red herring
_________________
Ahmed Bahgat[Qur'an 79:30]:- and the earth after that, He squashed it.....

Ahmed Bahgat-A deluded mind:
You can even prove it wrong, I won't care.....

Haik Monsieur

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject:

[quote="ghostbusting"]

AhmedBahgat wrote:

ghostbusting wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Looks like we have a prade of ignorant on this thread, let me cheer them with Slam Dunk # 18 which was classified as a mother of slams:

<snip>
Have a look at this verse where the word Balagha is used to mean reach a time a frame of 40 years old:

SHAKIR: And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.
[The Quran ; 46:15]

وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا ۖ حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا ۖ وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا ۚ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَبَلَغَ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً قَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ وَأَصْلِحْ لِي فِي ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ إِنِّي تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَإِنِّي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ (15)

Sorry, I missed reading this. True that.

See another "Balagha" in Quran which means reached a place:

حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ بَيْنَ السَّدَّيْنِ وَجَدَ مِن دُونِهِمَا قَوْمًا لَّا يَكَادُونَ يَفْقَهُونَ قَوْلًا

Hatta itza balgha baina al saddaini wajada min doonihima qouman la yakadoona yafqahoona qoulan

Translation: Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word. [Quran 18:93]

See the bolded word in Arabic. It reads "Balagha"

Where did this person (Zul Qarnain) balagh= reach?

He reached a tract between two mountins. The word used is "Balagha"

Any answer to this?

KhaliL
_________________
________________________________

ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject:

Musti wrote:

ghostbusting wrote:

Musti wrote:

From Al Tabari vol 1:

Then he said: For the sun and the moon, He created easts and wests (positions to rise and set) on the two sides of the earth and the two rims of heaven, 180 SPRINGS IN THE WEST OF BLACK CLAY – THIS IS (MEANT BY) GOD'S WORD: "He found it setting in a muddy spring," meaning by "muddy (hami'ah)" black clay - and 180 springs IN THE EAST LIKEWISE OF BLACK CLAY,[b] bubbling and boiling like a pot when it boiled furiously.[/b]

Is the Black Sea black and the Dead Sea dead?

Red herring

Was that the only answer available? Do you want to change the subject?
_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

Musti

Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 912

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject:

ghostbusting wrote:

Musti wrote:

ghostbusting wrote:

Musti wrote:

From Al Tabari vol 1:

Then he said: For the sun and the moon, He created easts and wests (positions to rise and set) on the two sides of the earth and the two rims of heaven, 180 SPRINGS IN THE WEST OF BLACK CLAY – THIS IS (MEANT BY) GOD'S WORD: "He found it setting in a muddy spring," meaning by "muddy (hami'ah)" black clay - and 180 springs IN THE EAST LIKEWISE OF BLACK CLAY,[b] bubbling and boiling like a pot when it boiled furiously.[/b]

Is the Black Sea black and the Dead Sea dead?

Red herring

Was that the only answer available? Do you want to change the subject?

A logical fallacy needs no response.
_________________
Ahmed Bahgat[Qur'an 79:30]:- and the earth after that, He squashed it.....

Ahmed Bahgat-A deluded mind:
You can even prove it wrong, I won't care.....

ghostbusting

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject:

Haik Monsieur wrote:

ghostbusting wrote:

No, that was no online test. There is nothing magnificent about the number 19 in Quraan. I am not interested to know about the guy who discovered something about that.

Are you discussing Quran with me through English translations like others? Do you think any towns are mentioned in Quran that ZQ visited?

I presumed you knew Arabic. That was my mistake. Sorry about that.
_________________
Ali Sina to me (abridged):"If you don't like someone's tone don't read their comments. I do that and I have kept my peace for seven years."

I like this advice. Ali, it is really working and I am keeping my peace.

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