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Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat
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Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> The Quran and Hadith

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antineoliberalaxgrinder

Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 1727
Location: The line in the sand

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:16 am Post subject:

Regarding the following verses originally quoted by AhmedBaghat:

Quote:

1- Say: O unbelievers.
2- I do not worhsip what you worhsip,
3- Nor you worship what I worship.
4- And I ma not worshipping what you worship.
5- And you are not worshipping what I worship.
6- You have your religion and I have my religion.
[The Quran ; 109:1=6]

I asked him:

Quote:

Where in the Koran does it explicitly state or at least IMPLY that these verses are to be directed solely at "hostile Kafirs"?

To which he replied:

Quote:

It least it has to be directed at the kafirs who dispute the religion of Islam

Fair enough. However, you originally quoted this verse with the implication that it established a general principle of peaceful coexistence with anybody and everybody who does not physically molest the Muslims in the ritualistic practice of their faith. Your answer above does not explain why this is necessarily so - the jist of my question regarding Koran verses 109 1-6. An order to SAY to Kafirs "to me my religion" etc is NOT equivalent to having no hostile intent towards them. The Nazis SAID some "civilized" things to the Soviet leadership before eventually invading their country. I have already pointed out that verse 9:3 also orders you to SAY to the Kafirs that they will suffer a "painful punishment" for their rejection of Islam. I ask you again: what might be the nature of this "painful punishment"? Answer please.

I asked AB:

Quote:

Now supposing you "invite" someone to Islam as the Koran says you must but the person so invited refuses.

AB Replied:

Quote:

Well, you have to show me the verses from the Quran to support your allegation

Certainly the verse in question is 16:125:

Quote:

Invite to the Way of thy Lord [Islam] with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

AB wrote:

Quote:

Now the verses we have in hand do not talk about any invitation for the kafirs to join Islam, in fact it BOLDLY tell the kafirs sort of: Fuk off. That can not be an invitaion to islam.

Riiight....?????

I wrote:

Quote:

Supposing you then warn them that they will burn in hell as the Koran says you must. Supposing they reply "if there is a hell it is you and your prophet Muhammad that will be burning there". Would someone who said such a thing be "attacking Islam" according to your definition? Answer please.

AB replied:

Quote:

Of course not, The Quran already coonfirmed that all prophets will be attacked and mocked, the Quran never told us to take retribute of such low actions by the kafirs bound to hell. Why should we if they are already bound to hell?

Let us get this straight. If a Muslim tells me I will burn in hell for rejecting Islam and I RESPOND by saying that if there is a hell it is the Muslims and Muhammad who will be going there then I am "attacking" Muhammad rather than the one RESPONDING to being attacked? Is that how you see things? BTW I dispute your Koran-based allegation that I will burn in hell for rejecting Islam. Does my disputation of this lie make me a "hostile" Kafir?
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AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:

antineoliberalaxgrinder wrote:

Before I continue with AB's last post a brief resume to questions of mine which AB has failed to respond to at least in an intelligent manner:

1)

AhmedBaghat wrote:

I have replied to sura 9, not once, not twice, not three times, but possibly 10 times, therefore your following repeated crap has to be dismissed: {It may be technically true that AB has discussed surah 9:29 with others on this thread and elsewhere. However he has made NO attempt to address my particular questions (as follows) in an intelligent manner}

antineoliberalaxgrinder wrote:

Quote:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The "crimes" outlined in this verse are:

1) believing not in Allah nor the Last Day - ie rejecting (at least openly) the Koran's claim to be of divine origin and/or engaging in other Koran-defined acts of "kufr"

2) not holding forbidden that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger - "His Messenger" being defined by the Koran as Muhammad

3) not acknowledging "the religion of Truth" ie Islam

The punishment for these "crimes" as committed by "People of the Book" is to be "fought" - and presumably KILLED - unless they pay the Muslims something called "Jizya". I put it to you that the inflicting of this punishment is no more limited by verse 60:8 than the command to punish adulerers with a "merciless" flogging. Afterall why would Allah bother to define those to be fought until they pay jizya as (1),(2) and (3) if these were not ALONE sufficient reason? Wouldn't he otherwise just have said "fight the people of the book who have fought you for your faith and driven you from your homes until they pay you jizya"?

Quote:

Where in the Koran does it state or imply that adulterers or other "zina criminals" are to be flogged only "on Muslim land"{as AB claimed}?

Quote:

Do you or do you not agree that attempting to make people disbelievers is an act of kufr?

Quote:

So the Koran orders you to SAY these words to the kafirs[to me my religion to me yours etc]. So what? How does you SAYING these things establish a general principle of indefinite peaceful coexistence with anybody and everybody who does not molest the Muslims in the solely ritualistic practice of their religion?

Quote:

Verse 9:03 orders you to "proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.". What might be the nature of this "grievous penalty" of which you are ordered to warn the Kafirs?

You are still ranting crap

Firstly. the Islamic laws as stated in the Quran should be implemented on a Muslim land you confused, how come you want it to be implemented in your kafis lands?

Are you that confused, so i decided to reply to all verse in sura 9 in a serious of slams

you may watch the first in here:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1183978#1183978
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Winston

Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 122
Location: Mecca (top secret)

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

What exactly is a 'Muslim land' and how were they formed in the first place?
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AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject:

Winston wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

What exactly is a 'Muslim land' and how were they formed in the first place?

I meant by the Muslim land is the the house of Allah where the Kabba (the house of Allah) is located, the city of Mecca may be considered a Muslim land, however accoridng to the Quran the kafirs are not prevented from entering Mecca, rather prevented from entering Al Masjid Al haram, i.e. Al Kabba and its vicinity where the worshipping of Allah alone should be held

I have to pause from any further replies because my next comment is # 10000 and I have an idea to make it special so I need some time to think about it and evaluate if it is worth making it special

again, there will be no fyrther comment by me on any thread for a few days
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Mullah Rock N Roll

Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 1224
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:01 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

Dear Ahmed Bahgat,

Do you really think that the story of Noah's Ark & the great flood to be true or is it another one of Koran's fables?

If you dismiss my question, I will assume that you don't know the answer.

Thanks
Mullah

I believe it is true

Good, so lets move on. Does this mean the Anacondas from South Americas, kangaroos & dingoes from Autralia, Elephants & Hippos from Africa, Tigers from Bengal, & Polar Bears & Peguins from the Poles all heeded Noah's call & parked themselves in the Ark?

If you dismiss my question, I will assume you dont know the answer.

Mullah Rock Bottom

Noah never gatherd a couple from every creature on earth, Noah's flood was a local flood, i.e. the rest of the earth was not flooded,

Only the dumb bums take it as if Noah gathered a couple from every creature on earth, haha, there will be no room for them on the Ark, I guess they have been manipulated by the corrupt OT/NT

Noah only collected a couple from every creature that lived within his vicinity

How do you know that the flood was local, does it say in the Koran that the flood was local?
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From amongest us came the prophets to teach
And from the pulpit they preached
They prayed, they slayed, and they passed away,
Yet our ills remain as pebbles on a beach - Al Maari

Trojan Horse

Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1488
Location: "Where the Islamic hell freezes over..."

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

I believe it is true

How do you know that the flood was local, does it say in the Koran that the flood was local?

Imagine that ! ! ! allah asking Noah to build an ark that took years of back-breaking labour, and place in there two kinds of every animal, when the flood was only local? ? ? When all he could have done was ask Noah and his family and the pair of every (local) animal to move to a different location that would not be effected by the flood.... wouldn't that have been more logical, but hey who said anything in the koran was logical or made any sense at all.

That's what you get from plagerising incomplete information from other sources. The koran makes out allah to be a retard.

This local flood nonsense is even more ridiculous then the almost believable universal one of the bible.

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orangupahan wrote:

I'm an advocate of pedophilia. Its legal according to Allah's law, there's nothing wrong with it.

Mullah Rock N Roll

Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 1224
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:43 am Post subject:

Trojan Horse wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

I believe it is true

How do you know that the flood was local, does it say in the Koran that the flood was local?

The Discovery channel here in Canada did a documentry on this absurd phenomenon. There is a geologist named Ian Plimer (I think he's an Aussie) who has done a study, & explored all possibilities as to ways in which planet earth could have been submerged by a flood. It would take 5 times the volume of water in the oceans to flood this whole earth right up to the Himalayas. And these religious people go about flaunting this stupdity without embarassment.
_________________
From amongest us came the prophets to teach
And from the pulpit they preached
They prayed, they slayed, and they passed away,
Yet our ills remain as pebbles on a beach - Al Maari

Trojan Horse

Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1488
Location: "Where the Islamic hell freezes over..."

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:16 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

I believe it is true

Mullah Rock Bottom

Noah never gatherd a couple from every creature on earth, Noah's flood was a local flood, i.e. the rest of the earth was not flooded, .....

......
Noah only collected a couple from every creature that lived within his vicinity

Lets see what allah says:

allah wrote:

The Believers
[23.27] So We revealed to him, saying: Make the ark before Our eyes and (according to) Our revelation; and when Our command is given and the valley overflows, take into it of EVERY KIND a pair, two, and your followers, except those among them against whom the word has gone forth, and do not speak to Me in respect of those who are unjust; surely they shall be drowned.
[23.28] And when you are firmly seated, you and those with you, in the ark, say: All praise is due to Allah who delivered us from the unjust people:

The phrase "Every Kind" in allah's word, pretty much sums it up as to what allah's command was. Every Kind did infact mean just that.... Every Kind, not just a few that had habitat in Noah's locality. No where is there any mention about vicinity or locality...

Furthermore let us look at Noah's prayer

allah wrote:

[71.26] And Nuh said: My Lord! leave not upon the land any dweller from among the unbelievers:
[71.27] For surely if Thou leave them they will lead astray Thy servants, and will not beget any but immoral, ungrateful (children)

Notice his prayer he says "upon THE land" not just the land that was his locality. A local flood would entail the fact that not only did evildoers survive but that they also possibly had offspring who were "wicked ungrateful ones," something Noah prayed against. Clearly, this passage fits in better with a global event.

Ibn Kathir wrote:

<And, his progeny, them We made the survivors> 'Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn 'Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, "There was no one left apart from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him." Sa'id bin Abi 'Arubah said, narrating from Qatadah ...

"All people descended from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him." At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim narrated from Samurah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Prophet ... said concerning the Ayah ...

How do all people descend from Noah if the flood was only local ? ? ?

AB has failed miserablly in trying to localize the flood of the koran.

Size of the ark:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Only the dumb bums take it as if Noah gathered a couple from every creature on earth, haha, there will be no room for them on the Ark, I guess they have been manipulated by the corrupt OT/NT

AB, presumes too much without even trying to understand the measurements of the ark mentioned in the torah. This was apparently not some itsy bitsy cruise ship he built.
Read on:

Quote:

"...Noah's ark was three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide, thirty cubits deep - an ideal set of measurements for an ocean liner. If the cubit measured twenty-four inches in that earlier period (as it may well have done in an age when men were bigger than they were after the Flood - cf. Gen. 6:4), then the ark of Noah would have been six hundred feet long, by one hundred feet wide, and sixty feet deep. If it was fairly boxlike in shape (as would be probable in view of its special purpose), it would have had the capacity of 3.6 million cubic feet. This is the capacity of about two thousand cattle cars, each of which can carry 18 to 20 cattle, 60 to 80 hogs, or 80 to 100 sheep.
"At the present time, there are only 290 main species of land animals larger in size than sheep. There are 757 more species ranging in size from sheep to rats, and there are 1,358 species smaller than rats. Two individuals of each of these species would fit very comfortably into two thousand cattle cars, with plenty of room for fodder...."
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/noahs_ark.htm

Does the koran teach a local flood?
Ahmed please Read:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/flood.htm
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orangupahan wrote:

I'm an advocate of pedophilia. Its legal according to Allah's law, there's nothing wrong with it.

Trojan Horse

Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1488
Location: "Where the Islamic hell freezes over..."

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:29 am Post subject:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

Trojan Horse wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Mullah Rock N Roll wrote:

I believe it is true

How do you know that the flood was local, does it say in the Koran that the flood was local?

Mullah,
The question is not wether this event actually happened or not, but the fact that some Muslims like Ahmed knowing its absurdity, and in trying to make the koran relevant and the true word of allah, try to weasel out of the clear universal flood by simply localizing it into a belivable story. The question still remains, as to why Noah would take two of EVERY animal into the ark as mentioned in the koran, nothing of Noah's locality is mentioned nor is his local animal population.

Let's see how AB deals with this one now!

_________________
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orangupahan wrote:

I'm an advocate of pedophilia. Its legal according to Allah's law, there's nothing wrong with it.

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