|
Attention: Year 2009 is here
Wishing a very Happy New Year to all members of FFI. Our new and improved site is ready. To visit main site, click at faithfreedom.org and to visit our new forum, click at forum09.faithfreedom.org and register again. Do not worry about your old forum posts and PM, everything is saved here till 31st December, 2008 for future references.
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ANP
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 1735
Location: Pakistan
|
 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| JulianCharteris wrote: |
| A better word is 'diagnose'. |
diagnose someone who lived 1000 years ago is not possible you can only guess
as this website wants a proof for everything similarly by your own standards you should accept that there is no proof for all this.
you are quick to say where is the proof Muhammad was a messenger and all that so now where is the proof that he had all these diseases. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
IamThat
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: In between my ears!
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi ANP, haven't seen you in a while! welcome back and have you changed your mind and gone back to Islam or something?
_________________
As body, you are in space. As mind, you are in time. But are you a mere body with a mind in it? Have you ever investigated?When you realize that the distinction between inner and outer is in the mind only, you are no longer afraid. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IamThat
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: In between my ears!
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Here is a different opinion from Dr. Sommers of the Psychological Laboratory Leuven/NL (I guess...): |
No that is not different. As I said Muhammad suffered from a series of illnessess. Acromegaly was one of them. I have written about that and will post it in a while. |
Hi Ali-ji, I recently saw a TV program on Discovery about TLE, it sounded exactly the same as what Muhammad had and this guy says the same things as Muhammad. He said he was pretty sure if he didn't believe in God he would have gone out and got followers, because its so dame real.
Any way but i doubt he was an Acromegaly, there is no proof Muhammad was excessively tall! or is there?
_________________
As body, you are in space. As mind, you are in time. But are you a mere body with a mind in it? Have you ever investigated?When you realize that the distinction between inner and outer is in the mind only, you are no longer afraid. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JulianCharteris
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 450
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ANP wrote: |
| JulianCharteris wrote: |
| A better word is 'diagnose'. |
diagnose someone who lived 1000 years ago is not possible you can only guess
as this website wants a proof for everything similarly by your own standards you should accept that there is no proof for all this.
you are quick to say where is the proof Muhammad was a messenger and all that so now where is the proof that he had all these diseases. |
It's the same process Western medical practitioners use to diagnose the illnesses of ancient people. That's how we know that Abraham Lincoln suffered from Marfan's Syndrome, Marcus Agrippa suffered from gout, Julius Caesar and Dante suffered from epilepsy, and Lewis Carroll suffered from TLE.
It is clear you are ashamed your 'perfect' prophet was a man who suffered from multiple neuro and psycho pathology.
Writhing on the ground, foaming at the mouth, depression, anxiety, narcissism and pedophilia are not normal behavior. That is the evidence - clearly they are symptoms and we can disagnose diseases from symptoms.
BTW: it is possible to get mild cases of acromegaly. Even today, many patients are undiagnosed with this disease, so mild is their condition. Though I personally don't think Muhammad suffered from acromegaly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ANP
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 1735
Location: Pakistan
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JulianCharteris wrote: |
| ANP wrote: |
| JulianCharteris wrote: |
| A better word is 'diagnose'. |
diagnose someone who lived 1000 years ago is not possible you can only guess
as this website wants a proof for everything similarly by your own standards you should accept that there is no proof for all this.
you are quick to say where is the proof Muhammad was a messenger and all that so now where is the proof that he had all these diseases. |
It's the same process Western medical practitioners use to diagnose the illnesses of ancient people. That's how we know that Abraham Lincoln suffered from Marfan's Syndrome, Marcus Agrippa suffered from gout, Julius Caesar and Dante suffered from epilepsy, and Lewis Carroll suffered from TLE.
It is clear you are ashamed your 'perfect' prophet was a man who suffered from multiple neuro and psycho pathology.
Writhing on the ground, foaming at the mouth, depression, anxiety, narcissism and pedophilia are not normal behavior. That is the evidence - clearly they are symptoms and we can disagnose diseases from symptoms.
BTW: it is possible to get mild cases of acromegaly. Even today, many patients are undiagnosed with this disease, so mild is their condition. Though I personally don't think Muhammad suffered from acromegaly. |
which hadith says that he was writhing on the ground and had foam in his mouth....
Also marfan has a characteristic appearance gout also has overt joint involvement
Show me hadiths which say Muhammad had involuntary contractions of the body and at times had urinary or fecal incontinence or had blood in his mouth
and you cannot diagnose TLE and narcissism in someone 1000 years ago
If there are no documented physical signs as proof its just SPECULATION. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JulianCharteris
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 450
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ANP wrote: |
The problem is you can only speculate ... |
There is far more scientific evidence that Muhammad suffered from various forums of psychological and neurological disorders than there is for his claim to be a prophet. I have presented all the evidences comparing what we know about him from the hadith, the Quran and what medical books say about these diseases. In most cases it would be unethical to prescribe medication over the phone to a patient without examining him. However, it is not unethical to diagnose someone based on his symptoms without actually seeing him. We are not prescribing any medication for Muhammad but merely stating that the stories about him are consistent with the symptoms of various diseases and disorders.
Can you give us one single evidence that Muhammad was a prophet of God? You believe in this patent lie without any evidence and deny what I say about him despite the fact that I have piled up a lot of evidence against him.
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| IamThat wrote: |
Any way but i doubt he was an Acromegaly, there is no proof Muhammad was excessively tall! or is there? |
With acromegaly you don't become excessively tall. If this happens in childhood, you become excessively tall and that is called gigantism. You get acromegaly at forty plus and generally you die in your early sixties. The development of the disease is so slow that no one will notice. Slowly your bones grow larger, your head grows big, your jaw becomes large, your tongue becomes excessively large. Because your jaw has grown, large gaps show between your teeth. Your hands become soft and doughy. Your skin becomes shiny. You sweat a lot and smell. All these symptoms existed in Muhammad and are recorded in the hadith. It is known that Muhammad used excessive amount of perfume to mask his fetid smell and he swat even when it was cold.
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JulianCharteris wrote: |
BTW: it is possible to get mild cases of acromegaly. Even today, many patients are undiagnosed with this disease, so mild is their condition. Though I personally don't think Muhammad suffered from acromegaly. |
Muhammad's case of acromegaly was not mild but very much sever and conspicuous. Here is an extract from my book. Of course in the book I have also quoted the hadith to back my claim.
The following is a list of what we can learn about Muhammad’s physical traits from the hadith:
• heavy and thick fleshy hands and feet
• wide and doughlike palms
• large head
• large bones and joints
• wide chest, large upper back and shoulder-joints
• long forearms
• long thick fingers and toes
• long, aquiline fleshy nose that looked upturned
• wide mouth and tick lips
• large eyes
• spaced teeth
• long silvery neck
• luster on his skin (looked oily)
• thick beard and hair, dense protruding eyebrows
• walked leaning forward as if ascending a slope (stiffness)
• walked briskly (restlessness)
• difficulty moving the neck and turned with full torso (catatonic behavior)
• had white skin with a reddish tinge
• sweating
• peculiar smell that he masked with excessive perfume
• snored like camel
• suffered from headache (perfumed cupping to alleviate it)
• In later years he was impotent
• lips moved involuntarily
• was shy and prudish
These are all symptoms of acromegaly. Acromegaly is a rare endocrine syndrome characterized by mesenchymal hyperplasia (abnormal multiplication of cells that are capable of developing into connective tissues) caused by excessive secretion of pituitary gland. Its manifestation is usually extremely insidious, as it precociously develops with coetaneous alterations, (changes occurring at the same time), making the skin shiny and soft to the touch like dough. Overactive pituitary glands in children sometimes results in gigantism. The most common age at diagnosis for acromegaly is 40-45 years. If untreated, it can lead to severe illness and death that often occurs around the age of 60.
The main clinical aspect of this affliction is the elongation or intumescence of the cartilaginous tissue and acral bone ('acro' means extremity, while 'megaly' refers to huge or gigantic). Fingers, hands and feet show an increase in size, as soft tissue begins to swell. A very characteristic case is acromegaloid facial appearance syndrome, featuring a prominent forehead, mandibular protrusion, enlarged nose, large ears, enlargement of the tongue, and abnormal largeness of the lips. Overgrowth of bone and cartilage often leads to arthritis. When tissue thickens, it may trap nerves, causing carpal tunnel syndrome, characterized by numbness and weakness of the hands. Enlargement of the jaw, increases the spacing between teeth .
Other symptoms are a deepening of the voice due to enlarged sinuses and vocal cords; snoring due to upper airway obstruction excessive sweating and skin odor fatigue and weakness headaches impaired vision and impotence in men. There may be enlargement of body organs, including the liver, spleen, kidneys and heart.
In the description of Muhammad we read that he had a rosy complexion. However, several other ahadith say that when he raised his hands showing his armpits, or when riding a horse exposing his ties, his companions noticed the whiteness of his skin. Hyperpigmentation occurs in roughly 40% of cases of acromegaly and almost always in photoexposed areas. It is probably due to the associated increase of melanotrophic hormone. That is why his face was reddish while the parts of his body not exposed to light were white.
Another symptom of acromegaly is the elevation of the dorsal-to-sole transition of the foot. This too was reported in a hadith, as quoted above.
The ahadith say that Muhammad sweated excessively and had an unpleasant smell that he tried to camouflage with an abundance of perfume.
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| IamThat wrote: |
| Any way but i doubt he was an Acromegaly, there is no proof Muhammad was excessively tall! or is there? |
| Quote: |
| This condition of growth hormone excess is rare in children and is referred to as pituitary gigantism, because the excessive growth hormone produces excessive growth of bones and the child can achieve excessive height. As an affected child becomes an adult, many of the adult problems can gradually develop. The distinction between gigantism (occurring in children) and acromegaly (occurring in adults) can be made by the occurrence of the adenoma in relation to the closure of the epiphyses. If elevated growth hormone levels occur before the closure of the epiphyses (i.e. in prepubertal children), then gigantism ensues. If it occurs after the closure of the epiphyses (i.e., in adults) then acromegaly ensues. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acromegaly
http://users.skynet.be/sky50779/mohammed.htm
_________________
</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IamThat
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: In between my ears!
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| IamThat wrote: |
Any way but i doubt he was an Acromegaly, there is no proof Muhammad was excessively tall! or is there? |
With acromegaly you don't become excessively tall. If this happens in childhood, you become excessively tall and that is called gigantism. You get acromegaly at forty plus and generally you die in your early sixties. The development of the disease is so slow that no one will notice. Slowly your bones grow larger, your head grows big, your jaw becomes large, your tongue becomes excessively large. Because your jaw has grown, large gaps show between your teeth. Your hands become soft and doughy. Your skin becomes shiny. You sweat a lot and smell. All these symptoms existed in Muhammad and are recorded in the hadith. It is known that Muhammad used excessive amount of perfume to mask his fetid smell and he swat even when it was cold. |
It starting to make sense, i guess it was the untreated TLE which must have triggered some sort of tumor in his brain, frequent shocks like that does tend to have their effects in the long run, the tumor inturn could have lead to the triggering of his pituitary gland in the brain, which is usually the cause for Acromegaly. He also complained of severe head aches which could have been because of a growing tumor. His last days where left to stareing and not much talking if i am right!
He certainly seemed to have some serious problems with his brain. So i guess his illusion must have felt very real to him and he wasn't lieing to anyone, he just couldn't explain it himself and so was left with such terror in his heart, that echoes through out the Koran. These illusions should have been quite frightening and real to him and i guess that could explain the sweeting even at winter, the elevated heart beat and the adrenalin can cause sweeting even in cold places. As you stated it all clearly seems to be connected in someway but making Muslims understand such scientific insights without hurting their sentiments is going to take some skill.
_________________
As body, you are in space. As mind, you are in time. But are you a mere body with a mind in it? Have you ever investigated?When you realize that the distinction between inner and outer is in the mind only, you are no longer afraid. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ANP
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 1735
Location: Pakistan
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ali sina take a break man cease fire stop insulting muslims
Do muslims annoy you in person in Canada?
I dont think so
whats your problem? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BlackStaR
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 1252
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Ali said,
he following is a list of what we can learn about Muhammad’s physical traits from the hadith:
• heavy and thick fleshy hands and feet
• wide and doughlike palms
• large head
• large bones and joints
• wide chest, large upper back and shoulder-joints
• long forearms
• long thick fingers and toes
• long, aquiline fleshy nose that looked upturned
• wide mouth and tick lips
• large eyes
• spaced teeth
• long silvery neck
• luster on his skin (looked oily)
• thick beard and hair, dense protruding eyebrows
• walked leaning forward as if ascending a slope (stiffness)
• walked briskly (restlessness)
• difficulty moving the neck and turned with full torso (catatonic behavior)
• had white skin with a reddish tinge
• sweating
• peculiar smell that he masked with excessive perfume
• snored like camel
• suffered from headache (perfumed cupping to alleviate it)
• In later years he was impotent
• lips moved involuntarily
• was shy and prudish |
Ali, is this combinations possible for your description?
or
or
_________________
</islam> </MohaMutt- (SBUH)- Shoe Be Upon Him >
... I am the Chill in the air..... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
dear BlackStaR, My good wishes to you., just a suggestion., Your above response would look much better without those pictures and if you would have commented with some proof from history (such as hadith with numbers and references), it would look much better.The goal of FFI is educating Muslims and Non-Muslims with "FACTS".. Keep that in mind please.,
YOU ARE INSULTING THE FELLOWS IN THOSE PICTURES INCLUDING Monkey by making them as Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). Please REMOVE THEM.. I don't think those two guys and the monkey deserves the insults.. Because They didn't become Prophets of Allah and they didn't do what Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) did...
The other thing we should keep in mind is resource center. we should add resources on Islam or subjects related to Islam., let us not make that as a "FORUM to discuss the subject". It would loose its purpose.,again this is a suggestion to you..
with best
yeezevee |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IamThat
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: In between my ears!
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ANP wrote: |
Ali sina take a break man cease fire stop insulting muslims
Do muslims annoy you in person in Canada?
I dont think so
whats your problem? |
Is this really ANP? 
Can the Moderators check if his account is highjacked? 
_________________
As body, you are in space. As mind, you are in time. But are you a mere body with a mind in it? Have you ever investigated?When you realize that the distinction between inner and outer is in the mind only, you are no longer afraid. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
