Faith Freedom International :: View topic - Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Attention: Year 2009 is here Wishing a very Happy New Year to all members of FFI. Our new and improved site is ready. To visit main site, click at faithfreedom.org and to visit our new forum, click at forum09.faithfreedom.org and register again. Do not worry about your old forum posts and PM, everything is saved here till 31st December, 2008 for future references.

Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.

This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> The Quran and Hadith

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

antineoliberalaxgrinder

Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 1727
Location: The line in the sand

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat

AhmedBahgat. Could you please explain the following apparent contradiction between Koran verse 60:8:

Quote:

Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: ...

and verse 24.2 in which Allah is clearly prohibiting Muslims from dealing kindly with adulterers:

Quote:

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah

It does not stipulate that adulterers must first have fought the Muslims for their faith or driven them from their homes in order to qualify for a merciless flogging. I await your explanation for this glaring Koranic contradiction.
_________________
Never trust a Sufi

Aceology

Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 124

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject:

Quote:

60:8:

Quote:
Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: ...

This verse was "revealed" after muslims immigrated from Mecca to medina, many of the muslims were in blood relations with the idolaters of Mecaa.

as you read in chapter 3 verse 103. "allah" says (to the early muslims),..that from your pagan family (brink of the pit of Fire) you have been saved by grace of allah

[list=http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.103]003.103[/list]
YUSUFALI: And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

Their family members used to visit them from time to time,and in this verse "allah" is saying you can treat them justly even if they are idolaters and...as long as hey are not the ones who threw you out of Mecca or fought you because you are a muslim ;

to be more specific , this verse was "revealed" after this incident ;

Quote:

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 407:
Narrated Asma 'bint Abi Bakr:

During the period of the peace treaty of Quraish with Allah's Apostle, my mother, accompanied by her father, came to visit me, and she was a pagan. I consulted Allah's Apostle, "O Allah's Apostle! My mother has come to me and she desires to receive a reward from me, shall I keep good relation with her?" He said, "Yes, keep good relation with her."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html#004.053.407

but if you thought that Islam promotes loving your family and friends,..then I should remind you of this Qudsi hadith ;

How to Love your family ;

Quote:

40 Hadith on Islamic Personality
From Abû Hurayrah (radiyAllâhu 'anhu) who said that Allâh's Messenger (salAllâhu 'alaihi wa'sallam) said:

"Love the one whom you love to a certain degree (moderately), perhaps one day he will be someone for whom you have hatred, and hate the one for whom you have hatred to a certain degree (moderately), perhaps one day he will be one whom you love." (10)

http://www.muslimconverts.com/books/index.htm

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=60&tid=53486

Ibn Kathir also explains this in more detail ;

Quote:

It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out that Allah forbids you to befriend them.) (60:9) means, `Allah forbids you from being kind and befriending with the disbelievers who are openly hostile to you, those who fought against you, expelled you and helped to expel you. Allah the Exalted forbids you from being their friends and orders you to be their enemy.

Quote:

24:2

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah

This verse means adultry is big enough of a sin to justify flogging.

in my opinion this is not an error.
_________________
My Youube channel :

http://www.youtube.com/user/AceoIogy

Do you like my posts ? Read more here ;

http://www.debatefaith.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=13

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat

antineoliberalaxgrinder wrote:

AhmedBahgat. Could you please explain the following apparent contradiction between Koran verse 60:8:

Sure, However I reject the word ‘apparent’ that you used because if it was ‘apparent’ to you, why you need someone to explain it to you? Simply you started your comment by apparently contradicting yourself.

Let me say, that this alleged Quran contradiction can not be apparent to you because you need someone who knows the Quran to explain it to you, right?

antineoliberalaxgrinder wrote:

Quote:

Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: ...

Let me bring 60:8 in here

8- Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
[The Quran ; 60:8]

لَا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمْ وَتُقْسِطُوا إِلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ (8)

-> The verse above is simply saying that believers should show kindness to, and deal justly with, anyone of: those who have not made war against the Muslims on account of (their) religion, and have not driven the Muslims forth from their homes, a child should understand it, I say.

antineoliberalaxgrinder wrote:

and verse 24.2 in which Allah is clearly prohibiting Muslims from dealing kindly with adulterers:

Hmmm, so you started your alleged Quran contradiction alert with you contradicting yourself, then when you elaborated on your alleged Quran contradiction, you contradicted yourself again, what the hell is that, pal?

Before even reading 24:2, what is the bloody relation between the adulterers and those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes?

Well, do you reckon that those who have not made war against the Muslims on account of (their) religion, and have not driven the Muslims forth from their homes are adulterers?

Pal, it is not even worth bringing 24:2, I have to stop ar this, you have taken FFI confusion to a new level, congratulation

It was so stupid that it will be a shame if I stamp it with my trade mark slam dunk, let me stamp it with another trade mark

Cheers
_________________
Click to read and watch my 10000 comment on FFI

Mersk

Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 5764

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:53 am Post subject:

Ahmad is good at that, being at the disposal for FFIers. You dismissed him well. _________________ MAM = Muslims acting as Muslim Affairs Ministers for Modk. HAM = Last Profit of Islam.

Aksel, Ankersen

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat

tawasaubilhaq wrote:

Well-said, AhmedBahgat

You do it so well. :D

SA

Tawasau, no point in cheering AB when he declined to respond.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Pal, it is not even worth bringing 24:2, I have to stop ar this, you have taken FFI confusion to a new level, congratulation

I must say that the OP confused me as well.

You see, in punishing men and women who comit adultery Allah said:

وَلاَ تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِى دِينِ اللَّهِ

"and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah"Koran 24:2

I.e. Allah commands Muslims not to be moved by pity when carrying out the punishment, because he expects his subjects to feel sympathy for each other. And he did not prohibit kindness itself except toward harbi kafirs like us (cf. 60:9), Allah also loves those who are just according to his standards (60:8) and Islamic justice is to flog those who commit adultery.
_________________
"your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime"

-Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam

Last edited by Aksel, Ankersen on Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat

Aksel, Ankersen wrote:

tawasaubilhaq wrote:

Well-said, AhmedBahgat

You do it so well.

Tawasau, no point in cheering AB when he declined to respond.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Pal, it is not even worth bringing 24:2, I have to stop ar this, you have taken FFI confusion to a new level, congratulation

I must say that the OP confused me as well.

You see, in punishing men and women who comit adultery Allah said

وَلاَ تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِى دِينِ اللَّهِ

"and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah"

I.e. Allah says not to be moved by pity when carrying out the punishment, because he expects his subjects to feel sympathy for each other, and he did not prohibit kindness itself except toward harbi kafirs like us (cf. 60:9), Allah did not forbid to be just as well as kind (60:

and Islamic justice is to flog those who commit adultery.

_________________
Click to read and watch my 10000 comment on FFI

Aksel, Ankersen

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:48 am Post subject:

Dear Ahmed, the post was adressed to Tawasau and neoliberalaxegrinder. No need to personally dismiss it. _________________ "your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime" -Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:54 am Post subject:

Aksel, Ankersen wrote:

Dear Ahmed, the post was adressed to Tawasau and neoliberalaxegrinder.

No need to personally dismiss it.

Tawa is banned, so I dismissed it on his behalf due to your repeated stupidity
_________________
Click to read and watch my 10000 comment on FFI

Aksel, Ankersen

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:01 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Aksel, Ankersen wrote:

Dear Ahmed, the post was adressed to Tawasau and neoliberalaxegrinder.

No need to personally dismiss it.

Tawa is banned, so I dismissed it on his behalf due to your repeated stupidity

That's very funny. Am I life dismissed?
_________________
"your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime"

-Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:04 am Post subject:

Aksel, Ankersen wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Aksel, Ankersen wrote:

Dear Ahmed, the post was adressed to Tawasau and neoliberalaxegrinder.

No need to personally dismiss it.

Tawa is banned, so I dismissed it on his behalf due to your repeated stupidity

That's very funny. Am I life dismissed?

Not yet, but i honestely thought of you that you are a bit smart, but it seems you are insisting on proving me wrong, well, if that is what you want then I admire your honesty
_________________
Click to read and watch my 10000 comment on FFI

Islamis_Allah_Tashit

Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Aksel, Ankersen wrote:

Dear Ahmed, the post was adressed to Tawasau and neoliberalaxegrinder.

No need to personally dismiss it.

Tawa is banned, so I dismissed it on his behalf due to your repeated stupidity

I really wish they wouldn't ban people like this. There was so much more ridicule and embarrassment that we could have caused him. I was just getting started. And just when you have the guy painted into a corner, he gets saved embarrassment and doesn't have to answer by getting banned.
_________________
Somebody get me a hairdryer

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject:

Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Aksel, Ankersen wrote:

Dear Ahmed, the post was adressed to Tawasau and neoliberalaxegrinder.

No need to personally dismiss it.

Tawa is banned, so I dismissed it on his behalf due to your repeated stupidity

Yes. It feels as if a sweet dream is broken

_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

antineoliberalaxgrinder

Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 1727
Location: The line in the sand

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Koran contradiction alert for AhmedBahgat

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Before even reading 24:2, what is the bloody relation between the adulterers and those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes?

According to Koran verse 24:2 adulterers must not EVER be treated with kindness REGARDLESS of whether they have at some previous point "fought the Muslims for their faith" or "driven the Muslims from their homes" etc. Correct?

Verse 60:8 seems to grant a BLANKET PERMISSION to treat people with kindness PROVIDED THEY HAVE NOT AT SOME POINT "fought the Muslims for their faith" or "driven the Muslims from their homes" etc. If this IS the case then verse 24:2 - an uncompromising command to treat ALL adulterers unkindly regardless - is clearly contradicting verse 60:8
.
Is it or is it NOT the case that verse 60:8 is a blanket permission to treat people with kindness providing they have not "fought the Muslims for their faith"? Or is it non-applicable in various circumstances eg adultery? Answer please.

Quote:

It was so stupid that it will be a shame if I stamp it with my trade mark slam dunk, let me stamp it with another trade mark

We'll see who deserves the label "stupid" before too long I think.
_________________
Never trust a Sufi

antineoliberalaxgrinder

Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 1727
Location: The line in the sand

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject:

Aceology wrote:

This verse was "revealed" after muslims immigrated from Mecca to medina, many of the muslims were in blood relations with the idolaters of Mecaa.

Ahmedbaghat is a professed selective hadith denier. I stay right away from non-Koranic references when dealing with him.
_________________
Never trust a Sufi

Aksel, Ankersen

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:30 am Post subject:

Hello axegrinder I don't believe this is a contradiction in the strictest sense of the term. Allah commanding Muslims to punish a person or people is not the same as forbidding kindness to them. Example: If a jailer offers to deliver a letter from his prisoner to their family, that's an act of kindness, even so, the jailer still enforces the punishment. -Aksel _________________ "your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime" -Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam

Display posts from previous:

	Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> The Quran and Hadith	All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next
Page 1 of 8

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum