Wife Beating : Is it REALLY allowed in islam?

[Syinfia]

Hi everybody! ^^

I live in a neighborhood full with muslims, and the majority of these muslims are very kind and social (i'm saying "the majority" because others are really not open to non-arab people for some reason i don’t know, like me for example, they’re only nice to muslim(ah)s and don’t respect the non-muslims), especially the muslim women, when i see them out of their houses they're always very nice to us and greet us ( - i said "when i see them out of their houses" because this doesn't happen often for some reason all the people outside are always men or young girls).
So, yeah, muslims don't seem to be that bad, that's also why i became so interested in islam, i went on some sites and it said great things about islam like; men and women are created from one single soul and are therefore meant to be treated equally and have equal rights, that islam elevated the status of women and gave them rights which they didn’t have before or the muslim wife has equal rights over her husbands and lots of hadiths asked not to harm them and treat them kindly, i was so touched by these nice verses that i thought about converting, i even started to wear the hijab for a moment (and all the arab dudes seemed to respect me 5 times more when i did).

Then i saw a documentary about women in Iran and Saudi Arabia on Tv, seeing the horrifying life they live there, everything done against them under sharia law was the opposite of all the “nice verses” i read, but despite that, these men in these Islamic countries claimed that it was entirely Islamic. After that i started to get a bit more curious about islam and went on anti-islamic sites to verify if all these things were really Islamic and i was surprised to read verses and hadiths i never read before, verses/hadiths which were never mentioned in the pro-islamic sites i firstly went to. Much muslims told me that these awful verses about women were twisted and put out of context and that these haters where sons of Shaytan who tried everything they could to make islam look bad. I was obviously angered by what i read about islam and i started defending the relgion on these anti Islamic sites to prove that islam was a religion of peace, but the non-muslims kept on showing more and more unjust verses toward women which i wasn’t able to justify, i checked whether these verse/hadiths were not falsified according to their numbers and they were shockingly correct.

So, after reading so much things about them (women in islam), horrifying verses in majority, i just wonder if these verses/hadiths are really true or if they're just badly translated because all these muslimah's (not women in iran, the muslimah’s in my neighbourhood) always smile and seem to be living a happy life, so i don't see how they could ever be so happy if they were treated "islamically" (which means, obligated to be obedient to their husbands, to submit to the husbands every desires (if they're not against islam), not allowed to go out without the husbands approval nor allowed to let anyone enter the house without the husband's approval, getting cursed by angels, being beaten if they're disobedient,etc...).

So are the english translators actually modifying some verses when they translate them to make islam look bad ? What are they like in their original version? I wanted to focus particulary on verse 4:34, muslims told me that the word which has been translated as “beating” had different meanings. I read the article Sina wrote about beating in the FF site and showed it to the muslims and they replied that the beating in question was a simple symbolic tap with a little stick called “miswak”, i made research, and i strangely can’t find any verse or hadith referring to the miswak, i only saw one hadith telling that, one day when Mohammed got angry at someone ( i don’t remember who), he said something like : “ if i didn’t fear The Last Day, i would hit you with this” (and he pointed toward a little stick near him).
So if it is a about a simple tap with a stick, i don’t understand why so much people are making a big deal out of it, I personally wouldn’t like it if my husband was allowed to beat me, whether it is with a pillow, a knife or a stick as long as a toothbrush, it is a mark of disrespect regardless of what he’d use, but i’m still wondering why so much people say that punching or kicking the wife is allowed, is there any verse or hadith saying so OR proving the opposite?

I don’t know the Arabic language, so maybe, knowing my ignorance, these muslims i talked to fooled me when they told me that it was a bad translation, so for the people who know the language, are the translations right or modified?

Knowing that this site is “anti Islamic”, i’m asking it here because i know that you people won’t be hypocritical and try to fool me like all the other muslims in pro-islamic site (maybe) did when i asked them the same question. I’d really like to get verses or hadiths proving that the miswak is only an invention and that beating really is allowed, the majority of muslims here are just so nice, i can’t believe that the religion they follow could be that bad…

Are they so friendly just because they’re mentality became more civilized because of the fact that they live in a western country? (which would mean that what these Islamic countries do IS true islam) or is this hate toward islam a huge misunderstanding due to wrong translations and lies?


Peace be upon you all !

[Yohan]

Koranic verse on permitting husband to beat wife is the correct translation. If a Muslim says otherwise, he is commiting blasphamy! Lying about the very words of Allah is punishable in Islamic countries. You need to let them know if they do that.

You seem to talk like a naive neighbor to a family of a law abiding gentle concentration camp guard in Nazi Germany. Humans are complex animals. They can do terrible things and walk around as though nothing happened, Muslims included. You need to penetrate the facade Muslims put up and look to understand them.

It doesn't matter if there are hadiths to support or not support the Muslim wife beating, as Koran has priority over everything.
_________________
"An unexamined life is not worth living" - by Socrates

[Chewchy]

Welcome to FFI

Wife beating is approved of in Islam. There are all sorts of videos you can watch that go over how it's done and at what point it would be a viable option.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/79/1594.htm

If you can get past this guy saying it's ok to beat children and going on about how it's different to beat animals, etc. By the way, this was a Ramadan special - can you imagine watching a Christmas special about how to beat your wife?

I'd like to know how many women in the Islamic world are actually beaten with a toothbrush and am sure it's safe to say, not too many. Anytime you prescribe that it is ok to beat another human being, especially one who is weaker or smaller than yourself, it's just wrong.

One thing to note is that domestic violence is not illegal in Islamic countries. A man can beat a women but the difference between Islam and the West is that in the West it is ILLEGAL to do so.

Hell, if they can get away with an honor killing, why would anyone really object to a "light beating".

Edited to add: here's another lovely one from a so-called Saudi expert on family affairs. Islamic family values

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/79/1447.htm

Can't have those uppity women asserting themselves.

[TheReligionOfPieces]

No question, wife beating is allowed in Islam. Don't let liars try and tell you otherwise because it is clearly stated in the KKKoran that if a woman does wrong, she may be beaten.
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IntellectualWarfare12 wrote:
There is not a single error in the Quran.

[Syinfia]

[farishta]

[sword_of_truth]

I have to make a comment.

I'm in a similar situation as Syinfia, with regard to my knowledge on this issue. I've seen some of the charges, and some of the attemted refutations by the muslims.

If anyone wants to argue that the true Islam as taught by Muhammed does allow wife-beating, I can't refute that, but I'm not sure if I can refute the Islamic rebuttals, either. I think the Quran verse is problematic, even if the muslims are right. Occam's razor does suggest it is quite possible that maybe the simplest explanation is the most likely here. Maybe the Quran just means what it says. However, even if Islam is really okay if it is properly interpreted, it at least reveals a clear flaw in the religion. This is supposed to be the word of Allah?



If I was Allah, I could have just said right there: "Use a miswak", it's only symbolic, blah blah blah, and everything would be clear. I could have protected Islam from the lies of the unbelievers trying to make everyone think that Islam is cruel towards women . Wow. I guess I must be smarter than the creator of the universe, then. Thanks for the compliment, guys, but unfortunately, I'm afraid it probably has something to do with the fact that the author of the Quran was not the creator of the universe. Just maybe. Just a wild guess. Just throwing it out there.

Had to use that opportunity. But here's the more important thing I wanted to say. Syinfia, you are on the right track. Your intuition that these people are nice and the women are happy are most likely also true. How can that be? Well, Islam as taught by Muhammed is not necessarily Islam as interpreted by mainstream scholars today or the every day muslim. The muslims you are talking to are not all trying to trick you, I'm sure. They sincerely believe that Islam does not allow wife-beating. They might even be right. I'm not sure. But that does not change the fact that, in practice, that is the interpretation of Islam they have accepted. Most muslim men are not wife-beaters.

Yes, wife beating is a problem in muslim countries (I don't know that stats), but it's a problem in non-muslim countries as well. So, as far as mainstream Islam goes, I don't know that there is that strong of a case to blame it for this. I have heard muslims talk about this issue. They know that it is wrong to beat your wife. They are human. They still have hearts. So, perhaps their humanity is winning over their Islam in this case.

I'm sure if they thought they could find a way out of some the other injustices through some Hadith acrobatics, many of them would. I mean, at least one whole book has been written about why there is supposedly no death penalty for apostates. I have seen muslims who feel the injustice of this punishment in their hearts just as strongly as I do. The compassionate muslims who do not have it in themselves to leave Islam try to stretch it to fit their morality.

[katlike]

sword_of_truth,
I appreciate your comments. You are smart enough to see beyond all the hype.
Occam's razor, why would you ever justify that my husband is premitted to hit me with anything? Occam's razor. My husband would not hit me, it doesn't get any simplier than that.

[FinallyFree]

Beware the miswak arguement:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yrWCGes6PEY

[sword_of_truth]

I agree that the Quran verse is a problem. It is dangerous. "Allah" was very irresponsible to let there be any doubt about such a statement. The fact that muslims themselves are not fully in agreement about this matter PROVES that the verse is dangerous. So, if muslims are going to ask us not to take the Quran at face value and read it with the most obvious interpretation, then they still lose the argument because if it didn't mean what it says, then it allows for a dangerous possibility of misinterpretation. The Quran repeatedly claims to be easy to understand (and sort of contradicts itself on this point elsewhere). It is a very grave offense to even allow for the POSSIBILITY of a misunderstanding, to say nothing of the magnitude of the offense if the Quran in fact actually means what it says. This could result in people getting hurt. And in fact, I have seen videos of muslims going on about how wife-beating is okay, provided it is done in a certain way.

The verdict?

GUILTY, as charged. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS DISGUSTING VERSE!!!!!

So, mainstream Islam is guilty of endorsing the offending book, the Quran, and claiming that it is flawless and even miraculous. This is, indeed, a very grave offense. However, since they interpret that verse in a different way, the only thing they are guilty of is making excuses for the dangerous Quran, not advocating the beating of women.

I suspect that most muslims will try to soften their interpretation. In fact, there are Hadith in which Muhammed says "don't beat them", as well as putting certain restrictions on what kind of beating might be allowed by that Quran 4:34. so they are not just pulling it out of thin air.

Also, the miswak argument does seem to be an excuse borrowed from one particular scholar hundreds of years after Muhammed without any Quran or Hadith to back it up. Yet, many muslims actually believe what they are told about it.

[Chewchy]

Cosmicdancer had a funny youtube video about this but unfortunately he took his channel down.... too bad, there was some very good and heatfelt stuff there.

Basically, he was wacking at the air with the imaginary Miswak and saying "don't ever do that again". Yeah, that's really going to happen.

When one person beats another, this does not enhance or correct a marital relationship. It creates an environment of mistrust, fear and hate as well as setting a horrible example for children - another example of why the Koran is not the word of a God.

[skynightblaze]

[sword_of_truth]

The point I was arguing cannot be addressed by the Hadith or Quran. I think the Quran just means what it says, although, combined with those Hadith, it does suggest that the beating should only happen under certain circumstances and be in moderation.

The point I was contesting is whether most muslims interpret the Quran as allowing wife-beating or think that it needs to be acted on, and whether that actually translates into actual wife-beating in practice. If I had to take a guess, they actually probably do interpret it as allowing wife-beating, but they would use the "last resort" argument. They would point out that the Quran actually tries to prevent it from happening by suggestion that first the wife should be admonished and all that and that muslim women have nothing to worry about if they do not behave badly to deserve a beating. Of course, there is no excuse.

However, if someone actually believes that they are only supposed to use a miswak, then they are not guilty of advocating wife beating. They are only guilty of intellectual dishonesty, and in their ignorance, promoting a book that condones wife-beating.

Maybe the purpose of the miswak is as a joke to get the wife to laugh and loosen up, so that she can be reasoned with.

[skynightblaze]

[sword_of_truth]

No need for a translation. I read it in Arabic. You're right. It says "wa" "wa" "wa". I don't see any "thuma".

Good point.

I see I am under the false impression that muslims are more honest than they actually are. I suppose a lot of it is just regurgitating the dishonesty of a few.

Still, I wonder if maybe there is some Hadith or tafsir which justifies the three stages.