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Continuing the Slam Dunk Show
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Zorasta_Russ

Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 364

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject:

Hello Again Ahmed

Ahmed Bahgat wrote:

So, why you are wasting my time and yours if you agree that Zul Qarnain is not Alexander the queer?

I am not wasting anyone's time. If Zul Qarnain is such an import historical person then who was he? How do you prove that the Qur'anic Zul Qarnain narrative is truly historic?

Alexander the queer was a historical person. I say that the Qur'anic Zul Qarnain narrative is fiction. After all only a fictional character would have found the sun setting in murky water. Look in Al Khaf 18:86. How can the creator expect anyone to believe such stupidity?

Dismissing what you can't answer proves that you don't have an answer. Allah will be very unhappy with you and you will find out on the day of judgement. You will be accused of helping the kufar in ridiculing Allah's Book because you chose not to answer but to dismiss. By debating with the kufar you are setting up Allah's Book to be ridiculed.

Ahmed Bahgat wrote:

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

The story of Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an (Sura The Cave 18:83-98 ) matches the Gog and Magog episode in the Alexander Romance written by an unknown author called Pseudo-Callisthenes.

So what?

The Greek version can be dated back to centuries before the supposed revelation of the Qur'an. It was fiction. It was entertainment. The writer of the Alexander Romance knew it was fiction. The writer of the Qur'an believed it.

Your Qur'an is stupid.
_________________
Once upon a time, there was a land filled with Justice and Love, where men and women worshiped Allah, read the Koran, and obeyed its teachings. But one day a majusi named Zorasta Russ came to ridicule the Book of Allah.

Islamis_Allah_Tashit

Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject:

skynightblaze wrote:

@AHMED

I know i have been dismissed but i am sure you will read my post. Please make sure you answer IAT 's question. I have read your response and it doesnt answer what IAT asked. I hope you know that you would be the host as well as the victim of the slam dunk show if you cannot answer him. Well further If anyone commits shirk all his life except in his last stages i.e when near death then he would not have any punishment . According to what you explained allah forgives people on earth for shirk but not in heavens if they do not return to true path while on earth.IF that is the case then there is no reason why one should believe in allah and worship him all his life except when you are near death.Would that be acceptable?

Since your post was a slam dunk, then it doesn't belong here. Get it?? Get it??

See how it works??? See how cross eyed logic becomes correct??? Ooooo ooo Allah, your cross eyed followers bow in ready wait for us to see in a cross eyed fashion !!!!
_________________
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Tvebak

Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Around

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:02 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Hey goons

In regard to slam dunk # 12 above, do you know that Alexander the Great was a queer, LOL, now that can never make him a man of God:

http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/gay-literature/famous-homosexuals/alexander-great-gay/alexander-great-gay.html

sad

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

Hello Ahmed.

I agree with you in that Zul-Qarnain is not the historical Alexander the Great. But who was Zul-Qarnain? How about the mythical Alexander the Great?

We who do not believe in the Qur'an look for an explanation. There has to be a source for the Zul-Qarnain of the Quran story.

The story of Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an (Sura The Cave 18:83-98 ) matches the Gog and Magog episode in the Alexander Romance written by an unknown author called Pseudo-Callisthenes. There has been some controversy among Islamic scholars. Alexander was identified in Persian and Arabic-language sources as "Dhû-'l Qarnayn", Arabic for the "Two Horned One", likely a reference to the ram horns Alexander wears on coins minted during his rule to indicate his descent from the Egyptian god Amun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Romance

The source of the Qur'anic story of Dhu-Qarnain seems to be from a Syriac version of the legend of Alexander, originaly in Greek. There is also an Armenian version. The Muslim Arabs have their version in the Qur'an.

Th writer of the Qur'an didn't know that he was retelling a ficticious story. Stories were told and audiences listened for entertainment.

The original story can be found in the book "A Christian Legend Concerning Alexander", In The History of Alexander the Great Being the Syriac Version of the Pseudo-Callisthenes. Translated by E.A. W. Budge, 1889, pages 145-148

I would like very much to see you Slam Dunk this one. Please answer this one question. Why did the writer of the Qur'an retell a ficticious story?

I am waiting.

Actually Kevin van Bladel argues that the story was not an exact copy of the Alexander Romance, rather he thinks that it was a reworking of the 'Alexander story' attached to Heraclius after defeating the Persians. You can read some of it here (google.books The Qur'an in Its Historical Context) (find the chapter by Kevin van Bladel called The Alexander Legend in the Qur'an 18:83-102). The relevant parts being:

Quote:

[p. 184-5]His [G. Reinink] thesis is that he Syriac Legend of Alexander was composed "shortly after 628" (i.e. in 629 or 630) by an inhabitant of Amida or Edessa, or some other place near to those, in support of Heraclius.
...
[p. 191]In short, there are many indicators that the Alexander Legend could easily have reached the community at Medina or Mecca and that, when it did, it would have been meaningful to them. There is no reason to doubt this possibility, and the relationship between the Syriac and Arabic texts determined earlier requires one to suppose that the Alexander Legend was in fact transmitted somehow. However, the precise time at which story of Dhu l-Qarnayn entered the Qur'an - in Muhammads last years, or later - is still undecided.

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Islamis_Allah_Tashit

Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:36 am Post subject:

At what point is someone going to give the thread the obvious name of the "Slam the Punk Show" ?? Or maybe, Slam the Skunk Show, cuz something really seems to stink of mental illness in this thread _________________ Somebody get me a hairdryer

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:09 am Post subject:

charleslemartel wrote:

Thanks for getting me off the life dismissal list; I am feeling quite happy

Great, and I decided to be nice with you too, so I won’t call you mental unless you said something that earned you the call, it’s your happy day

charleslemartel wrote:

Here I go, one at a time:

Exactly, you know, that is a common tactic by the kafirs when debating Muslims, they think by posting masses of alleged contradictions that they will overwhelm the Muslims, and I know that such tactics may work with many Muslims, with me however, it means one thing only, an inevitable dismissal, the reason I replied to truthseeker2 masses of crap, I was simply bored.

charleslemartel wrote:

30:26 :
Yusuf Ali: To Him belongs every being that is in the heavens and on earth: all are devoutly obedient to Him.

Let me bring the Arabic text and qualify the above translation as I have not reached sura 30 in my translation yet:

This is what I believe is far more accurate translation than Y A one:

And to Him belongs what is in the heavens and the earth, all are to Him obedient.
[The Quran ; 30:26]

وَلَهُ مَنْ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ كُلٌّ لَهُ قَانِتُونَ (26)

-> You are picking on the bolded words: all are to Him obedient., and for you, ‘ALL’ should cover the jinn and the humans, which I totally agree with you

Then you brought the following verse that you think is contradicting 30:26

charleslemartel wrote:

2:34
Yusuf Ali: And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

Let me bring the Arabic text, as well, my translation (my web site is offline for relocation reasons, therefore this is my translation from the top of my head and may not be identical to what I have on my web site but will certainly be almost identical):

And when We have said to the angels: Prostrate before Adam, so they prostrated except Iblis, he refused and acted arrogantly, and he was from among the disbelievers.
[The Quran ; 2:34]

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ (34)

charleslemartel wrote:

So, the logical conclusion:
1. Allah says all are obedient to him.
2. He also says Iblis refused him.
3. One of the statements above is false, hence Allah contradicts himself and makes false statements too.

Well, it seems you suffer from the same common virus that infect the minds of all kafirs who chose to criticize the Quran, while I applauded you for presenting a Quran only argument, as you know that I do not waste my time with any other Jerry Springer crap, your argument is still nothing but clear evidence of your infection of such virus, let me explain:

Kafirs can not pick a couple of verses from the Quran as a possible contradiction while TOTALLY IGNORING what the Quran also said regarding many related matters, in fact the Quran had given us the answer in the same verse 2:34, Iblis refused BECAUSE he was one from among the disbelievers while acting arrogantly at the same time, i.e. Iblis had a choice to act arrogant and disbelieve, this must raise another logical and related question, why Iblis had a choice?, and the most important question is this: Does it mean that if I have full power over another person, then give such person a bit of choice while informing him that if he screws, I will burn him, that such person is not obedient to me?, I say absolutely not, because ultimately he will be obedient to me when I force him to burn in the fire that I promised him with, he will be forced in such obedience with no way out but myself if I change my mind. From this logical and valid way of thinking, everything is obedient to Allah, in fact if you look at the words again: كُلٌّ لَهُ قَانِتُونَ , Kul Lahu Qanitoon, i.e. with the exact word order,: All are to Him obedient, the word Lahu, which means to Him perfectly qualify what I said in the previous paragraph, imagine the words been said without to Him, i.e. All are obedient, can you sense the difference?, clearly in the first one with the words to Him imply both current and future event, while the second without the words to Him implies only present.

Let me now go back to my first note (your infection and what you have missed that is related to such matter one way or another), I am not going to overwhelm you with many verses, I will just tell you what the Quran said which destroys your argument and will constitute slam dunk # 15

1) Allah flagged two creatures that they will have a bit of choice while at the end if the screw, they will be burnt in the fire
2) The two creatures are the Jinn and the Humans
3) Iblis was one of the Jinn
4) When Iblis used his bit of free choice that was given to him, to disbelieve and disobey, he was cursed and the punishment was due but Allah chose to delay it so He test the humans using Iblis, at the end though he must and whoever follows him from among the jinn and the humans earn under the laws of Allah, obedience to be burnt in the fire without any possible way out except if Allah desires
5) there is no escape from the laws of Allah

It is like our laws exactly, a murderer has a choice to kill but he will never have a choice to dodge the electric chair if he gets caught, in this life some may escape such law, but with Allah, there is no escape from His laws, i.e. ultimately we are and everything for that matter is obedient to Him at the end.

Had the Quran not stated the above points 1 to 5, then you may have had a point, but because the Quran said so (all the above points) as well, my very strong argument of the word Lahu, to Him that was included in 30:26 all are to Him obedient, I have no option but conclude my refute with this:

No animation as it seems that there are some technical issues linking back to my offline site:

# 15
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Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:04 am; edited 2 times in total

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:38 am Post subject:

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

Hello Again Ahmed

Hello

Ahmed Bahgat wrote:

So, why you are wasting my time and yours if you agree that Zul Qarnain is not Alexander the queer?

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

I am not wasting anyone's time.

Indeed you are, wasting both my time and yours, think about it again

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

If Zul Qarnain is such an import historical person then who was he?

I do not get it again, as I stated twice now, my reply is not to show who is Zul Qarnain, my reply was to prove that he could have never been alexander the quee, at the same time I do not care who was Zul Qarnain as long as I can coclude that he can not be a queer who takes it and give it in the anus

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

How do you prove that the Qur'anic Zul Qarnain narrative is truly historic?

Well, resorting to the same silly argument by the confised disbelievers, here is my logical reply again, i ONLY BELIEVE THAT THE QURAN IS TRUE, I can not however prove it, because the moment I do, it can not be belief any more and at such time the the beleief must cease and become a fact, logically speaking of course, therefore I can not prove anything in the Quran, nor that I need to explain to you my belief in it, neither that you need to explain your disbelieve in it to me.

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

Alexander the queer was a historical person. I say that the Qur'anic Zul Qarnain narrative is fiction.

Fine, you can say and believe in what you say as you wish, makes no difference to me

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

After all only a fictional character would have found the sun setting in murky water. Look in Al Khaf 18:86. How can the creator expect anyone to believe such stupidity?

Can you see the signs of you defeat, you are confusing the subject which is if Zul Qarnain of the Quran (being fictiional of not) is the historical alexander the queer (being fictional or not), you are side tracked to who was Zul Qarnain? while atethe same time conceding that he was not alexander the queer (the subject in hand), now you are talking murkey water,

I have replied to such crap of murkey water tens of timees and really have no time to waste with the confused kafirs who will always be in denial

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

Dismissing what you can't answer proves that you don't have an answer. Allah will be very unhappy with you and you will find out on the day of judgement. You will be accused of helping the kufar in ridiculing Allah's Book because you chose not to answer but to dismiss. By debating with the kufar you are setting up Allah's Book to be ridiculed.

Dismissed

Ahmed Bahgat wrote:

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

The story of Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an (Sura The Cave 18:83-98 ) matches the Gog and Magog episode in the Alexander Romance written by an unknown author called Pseudo-Callisthenes.

So what?

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

The Greek version can be dated back to centuries before the supposed revelation of the Qur'an. It was fiction. It was entertainment. The writer of the Alexander Romance knew it was fiction.

Fine, that is one of the possibilties, however you will be dumb to ignore other possibilities, one of such other possibilities that the story mentioned in the Quran is true

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

The writer of the Qur'an believed it.

and another possibility that the Quran is from Allah (the One and Only God) and the story is 100% true, you will be really dumb if you discount such possibility

Zorasta_Russ wrote:

Your Qur'an is stupid.

How come a book that you call boldy stupid , has such masses of followers over 1400?, certainly it can not be a stupid book, have you ever considered that you may be the one who is stupid?, you know, another possibility in the odds, you will be stupid to discount that you may be stupid, work this out, pal
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piscohot

Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 3928

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:33 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

charleslemartel wrote:

2:34
Yusuf Ali: And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

Can any muslim explain:

How can Iblis be a disbeiiever (of Allah) when he was supposed to be in the presence of Allah at the time when Allah commanded him to bow to Adam?
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skynightblaze

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 1155
Location: A place where i sniff a paedophile

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject:

Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote:

skynightblaze wrote:

Since your post was a slam dunk, then it doesn't belong here. Get it?? Get it??

See how it works??? See how cross eyed logic becomes correct??? Ooooo ooo Allah, your cross eyed followers bow in ready wait for us to see in a cross eyed fashion !!!!

Thanks for the reminder

. I withdraw my post so that ahmed doesnt have the difficulty in the show . I expect you too to do the same.

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raegesrever

Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 84

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject:

piscohot wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

charleslemartel wrote:

2:34
Yusuf Ali: And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

Can any muslim explain:

How can Iblis be a disbeiiever (of Allah) when he was supposed to be in the presence of Allah at the time when Allah commanded him to bow to Adam?

A believer does not disobey the LORD. By disobeying, one no longer remains a true believer.

The stress in the above verse, which Ahmed quoted, is on disobedience.

Cheers

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Great, and I decided to be nice with you too, so I won’t call you mental unless you said something that earned you the call, it’s your happy day

Thank you. And I will reciprocate the good will by not calling you Ahmak unless you dismissed my argument when not able to counter it.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

-> You are picking on the bolded words: all are to Him obedient., and for you, ‘ALL’ should cover the jinn and the humans, which I totally agree with you

"All" of course means "All"; thanks for agreeing with me here.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Dismissed.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

let me explain:
Kafirs can not pick a couple of verses from the Quran as a possible contradiction while TOTALLY IGNORING what the Quran also said regarding many related matters, in fact the Quran had given us the answer in the same verse 2:34, Iblis refused BECAUSE he was one from among the disbelievers while acting arrogantly at the same time,

See, I have presented my argument in a logical manner. "All" includes Iblis as well as jinns, humans, angels, whatever or whoever. I am not bothered about "Why" of the Iblis's disobedience. The fact of the matter is that Iblis is included in the word "All" who are supposed to be obedient to Allah, and he disobeyed. Period. Whys and Hows and Wheres and Whats and Whos only obfuscate the issue.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

i.e. Iblis had a choice to act arrogant and disbelieve, this must raise another logical and related question, why Iblis had a choice?,

Irrelevant question; is it called red herring?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

and the most important question is this: Does it mean that if I have full power over another person, then give such person a bit of choice while informing him that if he screws, I will burn him, that such person is not obedient to me?, I say absolutely not, because ultimately he will be obedient to me when I force him to burn in the fire that I promised him with, he will be forced in such obedience with no way out but myself if I change my mind. From this logical and valid way of thinking, everything is obedient to Allah,

Absolutely wrong. It will only prove your power over the person and not his obedience. History is replete with persons who have revolted against the powers that be and had to pay the price for their disobedience or revolt in form of torture, death or incarceration.

What you are claiming here, I am sorry to say, is totally illogical.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

in fact if you look at the words again: كُلٌّ لَهُ قَانِتُونَ , Kul Lahu Qanitoon, i.e. with the exact word order,: All are to Him obedient, the word Lahu, which means to Him perfectly qualify what I said in the previous paragraph, imagine the words been said without to Him, i.e. All are obedient, can you sense the difference?, clearly in the first one with the words to Him imply both current and future event, while the second without the words to Him implies only present.

Irrelevant again.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Let me now go back to my first note (your infection and what you have missed that is related to such matter one way or another), I am not going to overwhelm with verse, I will just tell you what the Quran said which destroys your argument and will constitute slam dunk # 15

Let us see.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

1) Allah flagged two creatures that they will have a bit of choice while at the end if the screw, they will be burnt in the fire
2) The two creatures are the Jinn and the Humans
3) Iblis was one of the Jinn
4) When Iblis used his bit of free choice that was given to him, to disbelieve and disobey, he was cursed and the punishment was due but Allah chose to delay it so He test the humans using Iblis, at the end though he must and whoever follows him from among the jinn and the humans earn under the laws of Allah, obedience to be burnt in the fire without any possible way out except if Allah desires
5) there is no escape from the laws of Allah

Only goes to prove the power of Allah over humans and jinns. An obedient creature does not refuse to obey; the moment he does so, he is no longer obedient irrespective of the punishment inflicted upon him later on.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

It is like our laws exactly, a murderer has a choice to kill but he will never have a choice to dodge the electric chair if he gets caught, in this life some may escape such law, but with Allah, there is no escape from His laws, i.e. ultimately we are and everything for that matter is obedient to Him at the end.

Only shows his power, nothing else. Still does not prove that Iblis was obedient to him.

Quote:

Had the Quran not stated the above points 1 to 5, then you may have had a point, but because the Quran said so (all the above points) as well, my very strong argument of the word Lahu, to Him that was included in 30:26 all are to Him obedient,

Pat your back as much as you can, but I have proven that the claim of Allah that all are obedient to him has been refuted by Allah himself when he narrated the story of disobedience of Iblis.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

I have no option but conclude my refute with this:[/

No animation as it seems that there are some technical issues linking back to my offline site:

# 15

LOL. I am sorry, Ahmed. This slam dunk of yours has boomeranged on you. You have been slam dunked soundly and could not do anything to prevent it.
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Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject:

skynightblaze wrote:

Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote:

skynightblaze wrote:

Since your post was a slam dunk, then it doesn't belong here. Get it?? Get it??

See how it works??? See how cross eyed logic becomes correct??? Ooooo ooo Allah, your cross eyed followers bow in ready wait for us to see in a cross eyed fashion !!!!

Thanks for the reminder

. I withdraw my post so that ahmed doesnt have the difficulty in the show . I expect you too to do the same.

I feel humiliated that while Ahmed ignored the posts of you both, he considered me a light-weight and therefore chose me as the guest for his slam-dunk show.

_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

sum

Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject:

Hello charleslemartel Don`t be too downhearted when my very good friend, AhmedBahgat, dismisses you. AB is like the Koran - he loves to abrogate. In no time at all he will have abrogated his dismissal and continue as though nothing had ever happened. He enjoys copying Allah with his abrogations as it gives him the chance to play power games. He did say that I was not one of his friends because I criticise Islam and Muhammad but I know that deep down he does not mean it. He is a real pussy. sum

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:53 am Post subject:

sum wrote:

He did say that I was not one of his friends because I criticise Islam and Muhammad but I know that deep down he does not mean it. He is a real pussy.

sum

doccy, sounds like you are back on morphene

I never said the above you stoned, what I said is this:

I do not consider you a friend because you attack my religion,

I never said because you criticise Islam and Mohammed you manipulated stoned manipulator

Please dismiss yourself in the rubbsih bin where you throw the used needles
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skynightblaze

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 1155
Location: A place where i sniff a paedophile

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject:

charleslemartel wrote:

skynightblaze wrote:

Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote:

skynightblaze wrote:

Since your post was a slam dunk, then it doesn't belong here. Get it?? Get it??

See how it works??? See how cross eyed logic becomes correct??? Ooooo ooo Allah, your cross eyed followers bow in ready wait for us to see in a cross eyed fashion !!!!

Thanks for the reminder

. I withdraw my post so that ahmed doesnt have the difficulty in the show . I expect you too to do the same.

I feel humiliated that while Ahmed ignored the posts of you both, he considered me a light-weight and therefore chose me as the guest for his slam-dunk show.

He ignores all the kafirs and not just us when it is convenient but answers us when he thinks he can. You too have already been dismissed many times in the exclusive forum so you should not underestimate yourself . . Now as for the question you asked you will soon see yourself dismissed and ignored just like us.

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peoshi

Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1057

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

sum wrote:

He did say that I was not one of his friends because I criticise Islam and Muhammad but I know that deep down he does not mean it. He is a real pussy.

sum

How did he attack your religion? By criticizing it?

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