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Discussed Farid vs Infidel01
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charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:56 am Post subject:

Farid wrote:

Salaam,

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Perhaps you missed out the above statement of mine. Do you agree with it?

Farid Wrote:

No use in the worldy life? Is that what you meant? If so, then you would find that it is ridiculous to say that to one who does not care about the materialisitic life.

I think of it in this way. This book can contain lies and or truth. Heaven can be real or it can be false. If false, then this book can not be of use to get into heaven, if true, then this book is indeed very useful. Is Heaven false? Or is heaven true? Ultimately, it seems that we might need to wait for the truth(death). But even then, we might not get it.

Thank you.

I meant the whole book to be utterly useless for any purpose. And not only useless, but exceedingly harmful to humanity in general.

If heaven and hell are false, then Muslims have been taught all the hatred for non-believers for nothing. It has made their lives hell to the extent that they have stopped caring about the worldly life (about the existence of which there is no doubt) and they have been made to believe about things which may or may not exist. They have been put at loggerheads with the rest of the humanity and have been brainwashed to live a life of violence which kills them and their enemies who are considered enemies only because of some lies. It has lead to the enslavement of half of the Muslim population (Muslimahs). It has lead to the subjugation, torture, death and suffering to a great many humans throughout the history of last 1400 years. It has set the ummah on a course of perhaps the final confrontation with non-Muslims which may exterminate most of the humanity.

Can you see how it has made you lose perspective? This book has become perhaps the single biggest cause of strife in the world today, and you are concerned only about getting or not getting into heaven? How many Daniel Pearls and Van Goghs have been slaughtered in the name of author of this book which may contain lies as you say?

This book has put the life of each and every Muslim and non-Muslim in peril today. But you are not concerned because you believe that you will end up in heaven so why bother about material world.

Your book obviously contains errors, contradictions and falsehoods which are crystal clear to us but which you cannot see because you are not willing to see it because of the fear and the brainwashing you have been subjected to since childhood.

Even if heaven and hell existed, don't you think it is stupid for Allah to claim that in order to avoid hell and enter heaven it is enough to "believe" in his ludicrous claims? What about the sin of destroying the lives of other humans which are supposedly his own creations?

Sorry, but it seems you have gone too far on this road to come back.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

Farid

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject:

Salaam,

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

If heaven and hell are false, then Muslims have been taught all the hatred for non-believers for nothing.

Farid Wrote:

I read the Quran and I read the ahadith. If I were to look in my heart, I do not think that I would find the slightest hate for non-believers. What are you talking about?

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

to the extent that they have stopped caring about the worldly life (about the existence of which there is no doubt) and they have been made to believe about things which may or may not exist.

Farid Wrote:

Yes, dear charles, you will have to understand the difference between unjustified belief and justified belief. Justified has evidence while unjustified does not. Let me give you an example. There is a pool, you do not see any sharks, will you not dive in because you believe that there might be sharks in it? That is unjustified as you have no evidence there are sharks in there. Lets take a look at another lake, you know that there are sharks in it, you can not see it, but you know that sharks can kill you, are you justified if you do not swim? Yes you are, you have evidence of sharks. Same goes with my belief in Islam. A question pops up, why dont you believe in Christianity, Judaism, etc? Same answer, I feel it would be unjustified belief. A justified belief can not be criticised while the opposite can be criticised.

I do not think that I would be materialistic even if I become an athiest. This is the way I am and there is no problem with it.

Charlesmartel, your view seems mostly emotional. You list all the bad things people have done in the name of Islam while not mentioning the good. It is as if you read half the book and claim to know everything. I am a Muslim, I believe in Quran and ahadith, yet the last thing that I would want to do is to kill an innocent person.

I will give you a Muslim perspective on these suicide bombers and killing innocent people. When I was not yet a learned Muslim and I would see the things on the news, guess what I wanted to do? Join Osama? thats right, when I was not learned. Now, that I am more educated in Islam, my view has completely changed and because of that I do not see Osama the way I used to. The reason I wanted to join Osama was emotional reasons, but with education in Islam, that has changed. My goal now is peace.

Yep charlesmartel. That is what Islam does to you.

And finally, to get back on topic. Does anybody have any proof that "true god" does not lie? If not, then infidel_01's question will be discarded as it has no basis.

Thank you.

skynightblaze

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 1155
Location: A place where i sniff a paedophile

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:55 am Post subject:

Farid Wrote:

Quote:

Does anybody have any proof that "true god" does not lie?

You are resorting to too many logical fallacies. You said islam teaches you peace and at the same time you say GOD may lie. Now how are you sure that islam teaches you peace when you yourself say that GOD can lie? Can you prove me that Whatever you understood from quran is not a lie i.e about peace? The reality is islam is not just a lie but utter nonsense and evil. Islam teaches violence because its a word of a terrorist claiming to be a prophet of GOD.
_________________
Simba is my name and paedophile hunting is my game!!!

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject:

Farid wrote:

I read the Quran and I read the ahadith. If I were to look in my heart, I do not think that I would find the slightest hate for non-believers. What are you talking about?

Then I would say that you have not read your Quran and Hadith properly. Quran commands Muslims to fight non-believers till there is no religion other than Islam and no God other than Allah is worshiped. Your statement is so ludicrous that I wouldn't even deign to show you the numerous verses and hadith which are full of hatred for non-believers. I can only say that either you are ignorant or you are dishonest.

Quote:

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

to the extent that they have stopped caring about the worldly life (about the existence of which there is no doubt) and they have been made to believe about things which may or may not exist.

Farid Wrote:

Yes, dear charles, you will have to understand the difference between unjustified belief and justified belief. Justified has evidence while unjustified does not. ..... A question pops up, why dont you believe in Christianity, Judaism, etc? Same answer, I feel it would be unjustified belief. A justified belief can not be criticised while the opposite can be criticised.

If you mean to say that your belief in Islam or afterlife is justified, I would like to hear about the justifications.

Quote:

Charlesmartel, your view seems mostly emotional. You list all the bad things people have done in the name of Islam while not mentioning the good. It is as if you read half the book and claim to know everything. I am a Muslim, I believe in Quran and ahadith, yet the last thing that I would want to do is to kill an innocent person.

Just by claiming that my view seems mostly emotional, you are trying to sweep my post under the rug. The things I have listed are considered the most heinous by majority of the humanity; it is another matter that for Muslims the definitions of good and bad are different and they might think that treating a slave nicely is good enough to more than compensate for killing or enslaving a person. It doesn't wash, sorry.

I have been critical of Muhammad, Quran and Islam. I have been arguing with believers trying to make them see their folly. Do you think I am innocent enough not to be killed by a devout Muslim?

Quote:

I will give you a Muslim perspective on these suicide bombers and killing innocent people. When I was not yet a learned Muslim and I would see the things on the news, guess what I wanted to do? Join Osama? thats right, when I was not learned. Now, that I am more educated in Islam, my view has completely changed and because of that I do not see Osama the way I used to. The reason I wanted to join Osama was emotional reasons, but with education in Islam, that has changed. My goal now is peace.

If what you say is true, I am sure you are now dead against any discrimination against a person simply because of his belief or sex. I am sure that now you do not see the humanity in terms of Muslims and Kuffar. I am sure you do not believe now that Islam should dominate the earth and its teaching should be followed by all. Am I right about your position on these issues?

Quote:

Yep charlesmartel. That is what Islam does to you.

We have seen, and are seeing it on a daily basis what Islam does to a human being. There are too many examples to miss seeing it.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

Farid

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject:

Salaam,

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Farid Wrote:

Yes, it commands them to do this. But do you know what it means?

Quote:

8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Now this is very confusing. How come Allah asks them to fight till religion is for Allah but then when they cease it asks them to stop also? Does this sound like aggression to you?

Lets see what Muhammad Asad has to say about this verse:

Quote:

I.e., until man is free to worship God. Cf. the identical phrase in 2:193, and the corresponding note. Both these passages stress self-defence -in the widest sense of this word -as the only justification of war.(Quran Ref: 8:39 )

Now you might find some verses about killing but they are not followed by asking them for peace or anything. As you know, we take the Quran as a whole and that is how we interpret it. A good evidence for this is the story of the prophets. In one part it is very complete, in others it seems as though the author knows we have read the other part and is not so complete and omits some parts.

These verses we believe should be taken along with these:

Quote:

"There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256)

"Fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you; but do not commit aggression, for, verily, God does not love aggressors" (2:190)

"if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace" (2:192)

"if they desist, then all hostility shall cease" (2:193)

Let me guess at what you are going to say. These are abrogated, right? Bring evidence they are.

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

If you mean to say that your belief in Islam or afterlife is justified, I would like to hear about the justifications.

Farid Wrote:

I thought I did this already, remember the post about the ahadiths, the jinns and the design in nature?

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Do you think I am innocent enough not to be killed by a devout Muslim?

Farid Wrote:

Charles, you will have to understand, there is more to Islam than what you hear from the critics. Read the context of revelation and see how citical the Jews were to Muslims and how hostile they were. I did not read about anybody of them getting killed for calling Islam false.

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

We have seen, and are seeing it on a daily basis what Islam does to a human being. There are too many examples to miss seeing it.

Farid Wrote:

I would be more impressed if a reputable scholar did such things.

And once again, to get back on topic, can anybody answer the question? How do you know the "true god" does not err?

Thank you.

skynightblaze

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 1155
Location: A place where i sniff a paedophile

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject:

Farid you are completely ignoring to answer a simple question.IF GOd can lie how do you know that the entire quran isnt a lie ? IF you cant answer this question your entire argument falls into pieces. _________________ Simba is my name and paedophile hunting is my game!!!

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject:

Farid wrote:

Salaam,

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Farid Wrote:

Yes, it commands them to do this. But do you know what it means?

Quote:

8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Now this is very confusing.

Wait, why is it confusing? Did Allah not claim innumerable times that Quran was very clear and easy to understand?

Quote:

How come Allah asks them to fight till religion is for Allah but then when they cease it asks them to stop also? Does this sound like aggression to you?

Yes, it does sound like aggression to me. Cease from doing what? Cease from disbelieving? Cease from fighting and defending themselves? Has Allah made it clear enough?

If not, Allah's claim of clarity of his book is FALSE and he is proven wrong.

Quote:

Lets see what Muhammad Asad has to say about this verse:

I.e., until man is free to worship God. Cf. the identical phrase in 2:193, and the corresponding note. Both these passages stress self-defence -in the widest sense of this word -as the only justification of war.(Quran Ref: 8:39 )

Why should I care what Muhammad Asad has to say about his verse? Why should one look for explanations from Asad or anyone else or any tafsir? Is the verse not clear enough?

Quote:

That makes sense only if the parts omitted are only from the previous surahs or verses.

And of course, the author forgets too many times that he has already talked about some issue earlier and keeps on talking about it again and again. Can Allah (aka Muhammad) be forgetful too?

Quote:

These verses we believe should be taken along with these:

Quote:

2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
"There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256)

"Fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you; but do not commit aggression, for, verily, God does not love aggressors" (2:190)

"if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace" (2:192)

"if they desist, then all hostility shall cease" (2:193)

Let me guess at what you are going to say. These are abrogated, right? Bring evidence they are.

Do you need to be reminded about the differences in Meccan and Medinan verses? Show me some verses that were revealed when Muhammad was powerful enough to silence his detractors by getting them killed.

Quote:

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

If you mean to say that your belief in Islam or afterlife is justified, I would like to hear about the justifications.

Farid Wrote:

I thought I did this already, remember the post about the ahadiths, the jinns and the design in nature?

And remember that I had already told you that just someone telling you something doesn't make his statement true. On the other hand, if you believe him without any evidence, it makes you gullible.

Quote:

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Do you think I am innocent enough not to be killed by a devout Muslim?

Farid Wrote:
Charles, you will have to understand, there is more to Islam than what you hear from the critics. Read the context of revelation and see how citical the Jews were to Muslims and how hostile they were. I did not read about anybody of them getting killed for calling Islam false.

Did you read about those invitations for either believing or facing war? Do such invitations sound defensive, or aggressive to you? Did you read about someone getting killed for composing poems ridiculing Muhammad claim of prophethood?

You have not yet answered my question. Do you think I am innocent enough not to be killed even after calling Muhammad a false prophet, Allah a false God, Quran being a fabrication of Muhammad and Islam a false religion?

Quote:

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

We have seen, and are seeing it on a daily basis what Islam does to a human being. There are too many examples to miss seeing it.

[/quote]

I do not know about "true god". But I can say this much: If Quran is from Allah then he can err and has glaringly done so.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

Haik Monsieur

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject:

_______________

Farid and Charles,

If both of you do not mind, I will not plunder more time.

Farid wrote:

Salaam,

Charlesmartel wrote:

Yes, it commands them to do this. But do you know what it means?

I know what it means. It means Muslims have to fight indefinitely against unbelievers aka infidels like me.

Farid wrote:

Quote:

8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Now this is very confusing. How come Allah asks them to fight till religion is for Allah but then when they cease it asks them to stop also? Does this sound like aggression to you?

Confusing..? Do not worry. Quran is always like this. It will only pay to confuse, the very reason 1.5 (or more?) Muslims are struggled and still struggling to sort out which is which. They fought and still fighting each other in way of making sense. After all in utter confusion, they killed and still killing others for the same reason. Quran makes all a mess.

But here in the case of 8:39, there is not much of confusion; (If you are confused here, I am afraid you will ever manage without confusions. Or are you the man called Confucius? )

Verses 8:39 commands Muslim to go on killing and killing until it all becomes for Islam. If they cease (Arabic word “Fa inintahou”) means if they (infidels) recline then Allah sees all that they do.
Muslims want to damn mess up with this verse, this verse does not decree of ceasing hostilities ever. It merely says, Allah knows when infidels recline.Recline to what..? Well, I am coming to it. Let us go on…

Farid wrote:

Lets see what Muhammad Asad has to say about this verse:

Quote:

Hmm. This Austrian Jew turned Muslim is damn good in Taqiyya. Self defense..? the chap must be joking when it is obvious in the verse command is to go on a killing spree.

Farid wrote:

There is nothing new in your way of interpreting. All those traditional interpreters of Quran interpreted this book the same way you claim you do. Still all come up in a conclusion Muslims can not stop killing. Any doubt? Go through your traditional Mufassirs and "In the name of Allah's three daughters, I appeal" stop gluing to this goddamn apologist Muhammad Asad. He was not even Arab and worst of all; he spent all his good days wandering all over the desert of Saudi Arabia without having any clue on what and why he is doing so. He had a good life back home at Austria, but I think the guy was much interested in Islamic system of marrying more than one. He could not have managed it in Austria, just a guess btw.

I am staying in Middle East, and I do not see any fun in wandering the outskirts. Man.., there is nothing in desert to pick up except it will hurt your eyes if you are not wearing protective glasses not to say they are damn expensive in here. The sandy wind and scourging heat… take my words for it. It is good for nothing to ramble through the barren desert. Archaeologists should have found it useful to dig but unfortunately (or fortunate?)they are not allowed to do their work in so many places here. Nothing of that sort of has been carried out so far in either Mecca or Medina, for the reason these cranky guys (sorry archaeologists!

) will come up with nothing but hell lot of skulls. All pagan and Jewish skulls..!

Farid wrote:

These verses we believe should be taken along with these:

Quote:

Here you are.., I was waiting for this, because Muslims can not help without this means of messing it all up.
Let me ask (if you know Arabic) what does it mean “Fitna” that is common in both verses? Do not get confused again with Gert Wilder's film. Fitna means disbelief. I am not saying this, but Ibn Kathir, Al Razi, Qurtubi all interpreted; this word denotes to disbelief and NOT tumult, oppression bla bla blas as many Muslims want it to be. Imam Mahalli and Suyuti in their most famous Tafsir Jalalain interpret this verse:

Fight them till there is no sedition, no idolatry, and the religion, all worship, is for God, alone and none are worshipped apart from Him; then if they desist, from idolatry, do not aggress against them. [Tafsir Jalalain]

I brought this rather short piece to save time and space. If you Farid insist, then there is no hostility at all and I will bring all those highly intricate stuffs over here, for I am very much knowing and compassionate.

“Fitna” is the word used in both verses which our good for Taqiyya only translators translate into tumult and oppression. They are in gross error though they do not know it and Lo! in this forum of FFI, they (the translators) will have nothing but humiliation and out of this forum a warm welcome is waiting for them.( I am sure Farid will be in the front line to garland them)

All that said, Fitna means disbelief, idolatry so when it says "Kill until there is no more Fitna” it means go on killing until there is no idolatry and idolaters left. DUH.

Quoting from Quran, Farid wrote:

"There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256)

I think I want to agree with you here because tolerance of Muslims can not be doubted. For example:

Muslims know sun sets in a muddy pond. It is a documented fact, documented in their holiest of all books Quran. Very much corroborative to science; since Quran contains all sorts from big bang to heat death..! Being such a book, Quran can not be doubted when it says sun sets in muddy pond. Heck… Dhul Qarnain ( I do not know who this guy is, anyway name sounds odd) witnessed to this pathetic ending of sun, imagine once bright sun ends up in a muddy pond..! Come on guys it is a fact. Scientifically proven.

Now I challenge the whole world and things in it (This is Zakir Naik style of challenging): Has any Muslim ever insisted you infidels should believe in this wonderful piece of scientific fact? NOT AT ALL. Infidels still go with the theory of earth rotating and sun never manages to succumb anywhere let alone in a muddy pond. While it is clearly stated in Quran sun’s setting place and setting style, no Muslim has ever compelled any infidel to believe in it. This is tolerance. See.., there is no compulsion at all in Islam.

Quoting from Quran, Farid wrote:

"Fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you; but do not commit aggression, for, verily, God does not love aggressors" (2:190)

This verse was revealed in context to Hudaibiyya pact. Heck.., Allah can not help saying this otherwise Muslims should have been skinned in broad day light. If you Farid do not mind, just go through the part of Hudaibiyya pact and what was the situation then. Muslims were in no position to fight let alone transgress. (BTW,"do not commit aggression" is not the exact translation. It should be “do not exceed the limit”)

Quoting from Quran, Farid wrote:

"if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace" (2:192)

Holy crap.., see Farid, your own source betrays you here. See Tafsir Jalalin:
But if they desist, from unbelief and become Muslims, surely God is Forgiving, Merciful, to them. [Tafsir Jalalain]

Do not feel ill of me, I am not doing anything on my own at all. It is two of those naughty Mullas or Imams named Jalaluddin Mahalli and Jalaluddin Suyuti debunk you.

I would chop the rest of your post for the time being and focus on your Zakir Naiky challenge:

Farid wrote:

And once again, to get back on topic, can anybody answer the question? How do you know the "true god" does not err?

Indeed I can but only if you will make it clear what is “True God”. Is there True and false gods in Islam? After all how many gods are there in Islam alone? Got any clue?

Khalil
_________________
________________________________

Last edited by Haik Monsieur on Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total

Farid

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject:

Salaam,

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

If both of you do not mind, I will not plunder more time.

Farid Wrote:

No problem.

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

I know what it means. It means Muslims have to fight indefinitely against unbelievers aka infidels like me.

Farid Wrote:

But are you not aware of how the verses were revealed? Revealed they were when the circumstances did arise. Are you not aware that generalizing in Quran may not be the right thing to do? When in Quran there is a mention of "unbelievers" they dont always refer to every unbeliever there is. It is sometimes referred to a group of few. Therefore, taking this in mind, what makes you think "unbelievers" refers to you besides taking it literally?

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

Muslims want to damn mess up with this verse, this verse does not decree of ceasing hostilities ever.

Farid Wrote:

If they desist? Desist what? For this I believe we need to refer to the word "fitna". What does it mean?
If Fitna is disbelieving, then it might mean if they desist disbelieving. If it means oppression then it might mean desisting oppression.
Therefore, lets see what fitna means.

Fitna has various meanings, it is not an easy word to find a direct translation to. It is commonly given the meaning of disorder. If you have read the history of Islam, then you should be aware of the two fitnas. Therefore, lets take the best view, we are not really sure what it means. Its context allows for both the meanings. Therefore, I see no justification of any Muslims using this to fight.

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

Fitna means disbelief. I am not saying this, but Ibn Kathir, Al Razi, Qurtubi all interpreted; this word denotes to disbelief and NOT tumult, oppression bla bla blas as many Muslims want it to be.

Farid Wrote:

See above paragraph for this.

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

it means go on killing until there is no idolatry and idolaters left. DUH.

Farid Wrote:

Hmm, I wonder why Muhammad(pbuh) forgive the idolators when he conquered Mecca? Was it because of this verse?

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

This verse was revealed in context to Hudaibiyya pact. Heck.., Allah can not help saying this otherwise Muslims should have been skinned in broad day light.

Farid Wrote:

Ahh, so it does not apply generally? Thank you for proving my point. Now if we can apply this to all the verses, then there is not a single justification for any hostility of Muslims against non-believers. Now if you accept the generality of this, then it is self-explanatory, is it not?
Do you think the other verses were revealed for no reason? Of course there was a reason and I guess it to be a war.

Haik quoted:

Quote:

But if they desist, from unbelief and become Muslims, surely God is Forgiving, Merciful, to them. [Tafsir Jalalain]

Farid Wrote:

Just one of the proposed meanings Haik, just one of the many. Lets not ignore the other part, else we might come to a wrong decision. All you are doing is adding to the confusion, which leads us to declare the uncertainty of the meaning of "fitna".

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

Indeed I can but only if you will make it clear what is “True God”. Is there True and false gods in Islam? After all how many gods are there in Islam alone? Got any clue?

Farid Wrote:

Either I am a bad writer, or you are very new to this topic. This has to do with what Infidel_01 wrote, therefore, you will need to consult him.

Thank you.

Haik Monsieur

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:22 am Post subject:

_________________

Hello Farid,

I do not see many things to add again for the reason, you are committing the fallacy of straw man arguments. Now, all it needs is to investigate further what is the ultimate message of Quran. For the purpose, I will link you to my article in FFI main page:

Ultimate message of Quran: Peace or violence?

Go through it and refute it if you are interested. You can refute the article clicking the link at the bottom of it which will take you to this very forum.

Well, this one needs to be addressed:

Farid wrote:

Hmm, I wonder why Muhammad(pbuh) forgive the idolators when he conquered Mecca? Was it because of this verse?

I would like to get it sourced because my attempt to connect this so-called amnesty to authentic sources went futile. I am not arguing either for or against this notion, but if you may source it adequately I will see whether it makes sense or not.

Farid wrote:

Either I am a bad writer, or you are very new to this topic. This has to do with what Infidel_01 wrote, therefore, you will need to consult him.

None of the above can be the reason. I do not think you are a bad writer and you should not think I am new to all this. I was just quoting which you consider is the core of discussion. "true god can err or not" I am still with the answer given in my previous post. Let me repeat:

If you will enlighten me what does it mean "true god" or "god" I will be content to answer whether such a guy can err or not.

Khalil
_________________
________________________________

Farid

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:23 am Post subject:

Salaam,

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Yes, it does sound like aggression to me. Cease from doing what? Cease from disbelieving? Cease from fighting and defending themselves? Has Allah made it clear enough?

Farid Wrote:

That is what Haik and I were arguing about, cease from Fitna we said, but we differed what fitna meant.

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Farid Wrote:

"There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256)

This was one of the later verses revealed.

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

If not, Allah's claim of clarity of his book is FALSE and he is proven wrong.

Farid Wrote:

Proven wrong? What is your implication? This whole thread started from the other thread in which my implications were that it does not matter wethere there is a lie in the Quran or "error", it makes no difference. Therefore, you are speaking to a wrong person about this, it makes no difference to me.

Skynightblaze Wrote:

Quote:

Farid you are completely ignoring to answer a simple question.IF GOd can lie how do you know that the entire quran isnt a lie ? IF you cant answer this question your entire argument falls into pieces.

Farid Wrote:

Sorry there, I did not see your post. The answer is there are things that we can check or confirm, then there are things that we might find out only if we pass away.

Is test the best theory? What I mean is. Saying that God would lie to test us, is that the best theory? Lets think about it, would not God, the creator of the universe know how He created the universe and how things work out? High chances that He would. Therefore, if we see God "lying" about this, can we not conclude that it might be a test? Yes we can. Therefore, should we not try to pass this test? Yes we should.

Of course, we can not say that the entire Quran is false because there are things that can be confirmed, but things that can not be confirmed, are they true? We do not know yet, we will have to see, should we not?

Thank you.

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject:

First, I would like to thank you dear HM. It is best that you expose the all too familiar taqiyya.

Farid wrote:

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Yes, it does sound like aggression to me. Cease from doing what? Cease from disbelieving? Cease from fighting and defending themselves? Has Allah made it clear enough?

Farid Wrote:

That is what Haik and I were arguing about, cease from Fitna we said, but we differed what fitna meant.

And he showed that most of the translators agreed with him. And, the fact that meaning of the Quran's verses is not clear at all belies the so called Allah's claim of Quran being easy to understand. What more proof does one want that Quran is false?

Quote:

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

Farid Wrote:

"There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256)

This was one of the later verses revealed.

Haik has already taken up this matter, so I would leave it here.

Quote:

Charlesmartel Wrote:

Quote:

If not, Allah's claim of clarity of his book is FALSE and he is proven wrong.

Did you really not get the implication? And I did not "imply"; I said it clearly enough that Allah's claim of clarity of his book is FALSE and he is proven wrong.

That it does not make any difference to you whether Allah has lied or not, and whether Quran is full of lies or not, is clear enough to me. What is there to discuss then? Live with your book of lies and be happy; good luck to you. Just don't try to preach to us and don't try to defend the lies; we can see through them very clearly.

I see that you have not yet answered my question which I have been asking to you many times. Do you think I am innocent enough not to be killed by Muslims for saying that Islam is false and Allah is wrong and Muhammad lied?
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Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

Farid

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject:

Salaam,

Charles Wrote:

Quote:

Farid Wrote:

I did not bother to quote other translators. You claim most of the other translators agreed with him? Wow, then we must have some limited number of Quran translators? Shouldnt we? Anyways, he quoted Jalalyn, I quoted Muhammad Asad and as you yourself said, why should I listen to him(Muhammad Asad), therefore why are you using the appeal to authority against me when you reject it against yourself?

Charles Wrote:

Quote:

Haik has already taken up this matter, so I would leave it here.

Farid Wrote:

I can only but say; you are joking right? That is what Haik seemed to be doing.

Charles Wrote:

Quote:

Just don't try to preach to us and don't try to defend the lies; we can see through them very clearly.

Farid Wrote:

Charles, you are in the wrong thread. This is exactly my point in this thread, that since you guys do not have any proof that "true god" lies or not, then therefore do not go around preaching Islam is false when you have no proof. The proof would be if you have any, that "true god" does not lie, since you do not have any, then stop preaching Islam as false.

Charles Wrote:

Quote:

I see that you have not yet answered my question which I have been asking to you many times. Do you think I am innocent enough not to be killed by Muslims for saying that Islam is false and Allah is wrong and Muhammad lied?

Farid Wrote:

I did answer it, in implications I did. By informing you of the Jews who were critical and declared Islam as false, they were not killed for it, why should you be?

Thank you.

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:33 am Post subject:

Farid wrote:

And I have already said that I do not know about "true god", but Allah did make false claims in Quran and I have proved it. You have already said that it does not matter to you. Why should it matter to you if I preach that Quran is false?

Quote:

Charles Wrote:

Quote:

Farid Wrote:

I did answer it, in implications I did. By informing you of the Jews who were critical and declared Islam as false, they were not killed for it, why should you be?

Thank you.

Thank you. But I still am not reassured as other Muslims like Orangupahan and Ahmak seem to disagree with you. Remember Van Gogh? Remember Hirsi Ali? Remember Rushdi?
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

Last edited by charleslemartel on Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:04 am; edited 1 time in total

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:41 am Post subject:

charleslemartel wrote:

Farid wrote:

Quote:

Charles Wrote:

Quote:

Farid Wrote:

I did answer it, in implications I did. By informing you of the Jews who were critical and declared Islam as false, they were not killed for it, why should you be?

Thank you.

Thank you. But I still am not reassured as other Muslims like Orangupahan and Ahmed Bahgat seem to disagree with you. Remember Van Gogh? Remember Hirsi Ali? Remember Rushdi?

what I'm not assured of you stupid mental idiot?

stop talking abot me, punk
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