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For ISLAME: Is there such a thing as "Divine Knowledge?
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ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:41 am Post subject:

charles wrote:

You behave like a typical Muslim. I remember all those wars where Muslims were getting thrashed all around and still were beating their chests and shouting, "We are winning". Even when Saddam had lost the war completely, he kept on claiming that he had won the war and the Muslims all over the world believed him.
This is nothing new; I understand the mentality.

Argumentum ad muslim populum. This fallacy is commonly used by Scientists and Atheists when they are obviosuly losing a debate. This fallacy holds that just because muslims claim success all the time but are proven failures all the time, means that whoever else claims success are also failures, regardless if they are muslim or not.
I did not use this fallacy because i am winning.

charles wrote:

See, didn't I say you do not know what knowledge is? Have you ever consulted a dictionary and tried finding out the meaning of the english word "Knowledge"? Please do so right now. It may enlighten you a bit.
And ooooohhhhh!!! How subtle of you !!! Had you not given the hint, I would have never got the joke !!!

It was not a joke

charles wrote:

If knowledge is also the unknown, how can there be "knowledge-application"?
You are too confused. Who cares if you do not accept something as an answer for life?
If knowledge is also the unknown there cannot be any knowledge-application by any one or anything, human or inhuman.

Knowledge application in the Unknown. That is exactly the argument for a divine being, that which exists as knowledge in the Unknown.
We are unable to understand this knowledge as it is not affected by humans laws.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

Last edited by ISLAME on Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:24 am Post subject:

charles wrote:

Who asked you to live alone? I am sure you must have friends and family members who are convinced with your logic. Take them along with you and live in bliss in a place where science has not reached yet. Even in the city you are living, it is perfectly possible to live without science; just give it a thought.
Unfortunately, horse-carriage and its wheels were also inventions of science. So it seems, you will have to walk.
And did you agree with my statement: Competition for power and money is not a function of scientific development; it is a function of human mind and greed. Ever read any history?

We will not be able to function is the modern world. That choice must be made by all in humanity, or a significant amount of people. But, i see that happenning in the future, surely someday, people will realise this. Someday, people will reflect.
Scientific invention is something modern, that which is made by studying books and attending school. Horse carriages was not such a product. If you want to argue, then breathing also happens because of Science, so you want us to stop breathing?
I disagree with that statement. Greed survives only in the company of Greed. Modern world is all about money and power, and modern world is the scientific world. Weapons were made by Science. I believe the world would be a better place without the internet and other modern luxuries, yes families in distant places keep in touch easily through the internet, but in the first place, they would not be distant places had it not been for the modern world.

quote="charles"] Learn the meaning of "knowledge" and then come back. [/quote]

Had you provided any refutations, we would have sorted that out. But since you did not provide any refutation, then perhaps, it is you who do not know the meaning of knowledge.

huxley wrote:

As usual, you are unable to string two thoughts together in a coherent narrative.
They flunk the test of having anything to do with "divine knowledge." They are absolutely natural occurences, no divine intervention required.

You cannot call it a natural occurance and a medical miracle at the same time. Earthquakes and Cyclones are natural occurances, so can they be called geographical miracles by geologists?
You are the one who is not stringing two thoughts together.

huxley wrote:

If divine knowledge actually existed, then there is no obvious reason that it could not be experienced through an experiment or a controlled environment. You are just making stuff up again.
I have already given you the link that would have started answering your questions regarding how we create experiments to test for love. You were too afraid to read it.
If divine knowledge exists but does not effect the natural world, then we can ignore it completely because it is meaningless to us. If divine knowledge exists but does effect the natural world then we absolutely should be able to detect it, measure it, and experiment with it by detecting, measuring and experimenting with its effects.
So... show us these effects. Show us divine knowledge.

I assessed the information in that link through your failure to prove to me you loved your kids and wife. If there was anything in that link, i would not be questioning your love right now. Thus i have to conclude that reading that link is a waste of valuable time, i have to conclude this through your failure to prove anything to me about your love.
Divine knowledge is the source for the natural world. What makes you think you can understand this source so easily when there are so many things you do not understand in the natural world itself?

huxley wrote:

Sorry to dissapoint you, but you could not be more wrong. "Spontaneous remission" is the explanation in the medical field. All that is required is for the remission to be independent of medical care. Diseases spontaneously remit every day. Most colds, for example, spontaneously remit without medical care. The reason is the natural operation of the body's immune system. That same mechanism is sometimes responsible for spontaneous remissions of cancers... or even AIDs. The only difference is that some diseases remit often, and other remit rarely.
When the remission is very rare, it is labeled a "medical miracle" as a cliche', even though nothing miraculous has actually occurred

so if divine knowledge helps in healing cancer how do you want it to manifest? Do you actually want to see magic happenning? Something like a superman coming and touching the patient and voila, the cancer is gone? A divine healing would look spontaneous too wouldnt it?. As long as the healing was not done by Science, you have nothing to cheer about. We are talking about medical miracles here, not flu. Of course, the other argument here would be that people with divine blessing never get cancers in the first place. A divine knowledge is supported both ways.

huxley wrote:

Why would we need to "find a way out?" Your "higher cause" is a solution is search of a non-existent problem.

The law of Causalty. And because of the law of knowledge application. Someobody or something using the knowledge to make or Cause something is the most vital part of that law. Thereforse, using that Law, somebody or something was using the knowledge even when humans and animals get out from the picture. This is what we call the divine knowledge. To disregard this, we have to break the principles of the Law of Causalty.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:28 am Post subject:

quote="charles"] Matter and energy are eternal; haven't you read any science? Ahh, I forgot; according to you science is nothing [/quote] Yes you are right. There is no such thing as Science. Energy can have a source though. The law of causalty applies to them too. Something that is already here could be eternal, but the question is were they always here? Law of causalty does not allow that. I disagree that matter and energy are eternal, they also must have a source. They cannot simply exist by themselves without any Cause or a Source. _________________ i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

charles wrote:

I did not use this fallacy because i am winning.

Yes, yes, of course

. I have already shown that.

ISLAME wrote:

charles wrote:

It was not a joke

Well, okay. Did you see the dictionary?

ISLAME wrote:

charles wrote:

Incoherence, thy name is ISLAME!! What does you statement mean? Care to rephrase?

Since you have admitted that you are unable to understand this knowledge, stop rambling about it and talk only about that which you understand.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

charles wrote:

What a lame excuse!!! Does it reek of hypocrisy? So even if it is YOU who prefers to live without scientific advancements, the whole world will have to live with you too!!
Sorry, the world is doing fine with science and is grateful for it. If you do not find it good, you are free to live like an aboriginal. But no, you will not do it. Why? Is it difficult to live without science? You find it impossible to forego the comforts it provides?

ISLAME wrote:

charles wrote:

And did you agree with my statement: Competition for power and money is not a function of scientific development; it is a function of human mind and greed. Ever read any history?

I disagree with that statement. Greed survives only in the company of Greed. Modern world is all about money and power, and modern world is the scientific world. Weapons were made by Science.

You claim that you disagree with my statement, still talk irrelevantly. My statement was: Competition for power and money is not a function of scientific development; it is a function of human mind and greed.

So tell me if competition for power and money existed prior to scientific development or not. Also tell me if Weapons existed prior to scientific development or not.

I will ask you again, have you ever read any history?

ISLAME wrote:

charles wrote:

Learn the meaning of "knowledge" and then come back.

Had you provided any refutations, we would have sorted that out. But since you did not provide any refutation, then perhaps, it is you who do not know the meaning of knowledge.

What refutation? You claimed, "Knowledge is both the known and the unknown". Show to me that "knowledge" also means "unknown". If you can't, you have obviously lost the argument, whether you accept it or not, as you have been talking about knowledge all the while without even knowing the meaning of "knowledge".

May I request you to start your reply to my post with definition of "knowledge" so I can be sure that you understand what you are talking about and we can move ahead.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

Something that is already here could be eternal, but the question is were they always here?

I am sorry but I must ask you if you know the meaning of "eternal". It pains me to expose your ignorance.

In order to understand properly, read the following statement at least 72 times:

IF something is eternal, it means it was always there and will always remain there..
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

Last edited by charleslemartel on Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject:

charles wrote:

Yes, yes, of course . I have already shown that.

Yes Sir you did, by using a fallacy

charles wrote:

Well, okay. Did you see the dictionary?

Well Sir, if you make any refutation, then we will automatically get somewhere. There is no need to consult a dictionary. If you think i do not know the meaning of knowledge, then you can easily refute what i have said. Why don't you teach me what is knowledge, if you think i do not know it?

charles wrote:

Yes we are unable to understand it. But that doesnt mean that there is none such knowledge. The manifestation of this knowledge seems mysterious only because our knowledge and senses cannot detect it simply just like that. The laws to which humans are subject to obviously does not hold relevance to this knowledge. Our life prooves that this can happen. A simple example. A dog cannot make an aeroplane because such knowledge application is beyond it. A dog will have no clue about such a knowledge too. Our life proves that there are different forms of knowledge and different levels of knowledge applications. Just like a dog cannot judge life with its knowledge, perhaps we should not judge it with ours too. Knowledge beyond that of a dog is there, but the dog does not know. We can apply the same principles to humans too, i mean we are part of this same life.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

THE PHANTOM

Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 112

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject:

[quote="ISLAME"]

Quote:

Scientific invention is something modern,

Sorry to intervene Islame, but the discovery of fire is science though proto. With fire early people manage to illumine their abode and help to lessen thier fear of the night, with fire, the art of culinary developed. The invention of the wheel is not modern but it is science.

Quote:

Greed survives only in the company of Greed

. Agreed, but they have unholy alliance.

Quote:

Modern world is all about money and power, and modern world is the scientific world.

You forgot that in the modern world there is also aesthetic that is, appreciation of beauty, arts and archetectures.

Quote:

Weapons were made by Science.

Also the printing press, the inks, the paper, they are the necessary engredients to produce the book of Koran.

Quote:

I believe the world would be a better place without the internet and other modern luxuries, yes families in distant places keep in touch easily through the internet, but in the first place, they would not be distant places had it not been for the modern world.

This world is a place for man to struggle. Humanity learn a lot from their struggle and still we're learning more. It is the characteristic of the human mind to know its surroundings. Man is not contented in one place he has to see what was beyond his territory thus there was conquest. Even Islam is not contented in Arabia that's why it spread all over the world. And with the help of science like forging weapons, building sea faring vehicles they manage to spread their teachings to Africa, Southeast asia etc..

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject:

charles wrote:

am sorry but I must ask you if you know the meaning of "eternal". It pains me to expose your ignorance.
In order to understand properly, read the following statement at least 72 times:
IF something is eternal, it means it was always there and will always remain there..

And that is why i have disagreed that Matter and Energy are eternal. However, speaking from a divine knowledge perspective, energy and matter were "made", whichafter they can have their eternal value. Divine knowledge made it eternal. does it make it any better now? Divine knowledge is the source for Matter and Energy.

quote="charles"] What a lame excuse!!! Does it reek of hypocrisy? So even if it is YOU who prefers to live without scientific advancements, the whole world will have to live with you too!!
Sorry, the world is doing fine with science and is grateful for it. If you do not find it good, you are free to live like an aboriginal. But no, you will not do it. Why? Is it difficult to live without science? You find it impossible to forego the comforts it provides?
[/quote]

Not everything that gives comfort can be called scientific advancement. Yes, ideally if the whole world does that, it would be much better for humanity. The world is not doing fine with Science at all. It is making life worse. New cars, more deaths. New machine guns. People lead sedentary lifestyles resulting in diseases because of Science. Computers take away jobs from people. Life without Science does not mean an aboriginal life. Scientific inventions are those which we got from attending schools and Science classes, that which can be linked to research and studies. Other than that, other inventions are just made by humans and part of life. Scientific inventions would be electricity, cars, planes, weapons, internet.
However, we would still have candles, lamps, Theatrical plays, horse carriages etc. And lots of herbal medicines. Many dieseases would be wiped out because most are due to lack of exercise, stress which happens in a scientific world.

charles wrote:

You claim that you disagree with my statement, still talk irrelevantly. My statement was: Competition for power and money is not a function of scientific development; it is a function of human mind and greed.
So tell me if competition for power and money existed prior to scientific development or not. Also tell me if Weapons existed prior to scientific development or not.
I will ask you again, have you ever read any history?

Yes they did but Science made it worse by making weapons like guns. As people slowly began to "progress", their hunger for money and power led them astray. Science satisfies this same hunger for money and power.
In the past, people still fought, but i think they were more happy than we are now. There was more happiness then, more spiritual happiness and life was simpler. In the past, even if people were hungry for power and money, there still were family, love and spiritual pursuits. But now, in the scientific world, parents could be dying in a hospital somewhere whereas children are working in another part of the world or city. We have deviated from the meaning of Life, now the meaning of life is just chasing materialistic dreams.

charles wrote:

What refutation? You claimed, "Knowledge is both the known and the unknown". Show to me that "knowledge" also means "unknown". If you can't, you have obviously lost the argument, whether you accept it or not, as you have been talking about knowledge all the while without even knowing the meaning of "knowledge".
May I request you to start your reply to my post with definition of "knowledge" so I can be sure that you understand what you are talking about and we can move ahead.

Unknown means something that is not known. For example, the internet was unknown 100 years ago. But it was still existing as knowledge to be found. So called scientific discoveries that will be made say 300 years later, can be made now if we had the knowledge or the tools. At least the discovery can be sped up. Whatever men has discovered now using Science was always there, they could have been found or made earlier, it is just that they werent.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

charles wrote:

You have not yet exhibited that you know the meaning of "knowledge". Show me the definition of "Knowledge" that means "unknown" and then come back.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

You cannot call it a natural occurance and a medical miracle at the same time.

Yes you can. And yes people always do.

ISLAME wrote:

I assessed the information in that link through your failure to prove to me you loved your kids and wife.

Yes... this has been your constant excuse for running away from the evidence and refusing to follow the link at all.

There is nothing more that can be done for you. You have been given the opportunity to learn and you have refused. This is why we can now dismiss your argument regarding love as being without any merit.

ISLAME wrote:

Divine knowledge is the source for the natural world. What makes you think you can understand this source so easily when there are so many things you do not understand in the natural world itself?

There may have been a moment on time when I might have given such a statement the benefit of the doubt, withholding judgment until you cold get around to showing me it was true.

But after these months, it is clear that you cannot show us a single example of divine knowledge, so there is no good reason to believe that divine knowledge even exists.

Therefore it cannot be the source for anything. After all... ex nihilo, nihil fit.

ISLAME wrote:

so if divine knowledge helps in healing cancer how do you want it to manifest?

Simple. If divine knowledge helps in healing cancer, we should find far more people healed when divine knowledge is applied than when it is not. In fact, if divine knowledge was real, it should be expected to pretty much work all the time, right? After all... "divine" is supposed to be something more than mediocre or incompetent... right?

This is not a difficult thing to measure... if it really exists.

Sadly for you... those tests have been done. Those measurements have been made.

Divine knowledge apparently does not cure cancer.

ISLAME wrote:

The law of Causalty. And because of the law of knowledge application. Someobody or something using the knowledge to make or Cause something is the most vital part of that law.

Nonsense. Now you are just making stuff up again.

There is no knowledge necessary for cause and effect to take place, and knowledge application is not a part of the Law of Causality at all.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

gupsfu

Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 7919

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

2)Yes the internet was always there waiting to be discovered. Was it not? But the question is, did they find Science in the internet? Or used Science to find the internet?. So rather they find Science in their discoveries and do not use Science to make discoveries. So scientific knowledge does not exist, only the knowledge of life exists.

You're just trying to be funny, right?
If not, you should get your brain examined ASAP.
_________________
‌

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:28 am Post subject:

charles wrote:

You have not yet exhibited that you know the meaning of "knowledge". Show me the definition of "Knowledge" that means "unknown" and then come back.

let's not cut and paste definitions. I am sure we all know the meaning of knowledge, if we did not know it, it wouldnt be knowledge would it?

Anyways, lets discuss this defintion "knowledge is known". This defintion sure can improve as it fails to explain known by whom? One person or all of humanity? It is not possible all of humanity as if it was then, everyone would be an albert einstein or stephen hawkings. PErhaps you know more of things than i do. What about a person with knowledge deficit? Why do we judge that person has knowledge deificit? Because we base judgement at our level...the general level. But can albert einstein or stephen hawkings call rest of the world as knowledge deficit because we did not discover what they did or could?. Stephen hawkings and albert einstein could both have knowledge deficit if we just change the yardstick. What jesus knew or what buddha knew was also knowledge. But you do not know the same knowledge...it is unknown to you. To explain further. REcently in Australia they sent down video cameras to picture the deep sea creatures never before seen....so were they not existing say a 100 years ago? In fact they were there thousands if not millions of years ago! So they were there all the time. So what do you call this existence which is not known? If it is existence, then it is knowledge too.

huxley wrote:

Nonsense. Now you are just making stuff up again.
There is no knowledge necessary for cause and effect to take place, and knowledge application is not a part of the Law of Causality at all.

Yes there is knowlede application. Huxleys uses knowledge to make the chair. He applies knowledge. Huxley's parents decide to have a child and then huxley is born...decision making is involved. there is knowledge application. Knowledge application is a vital part of Cause and Effect. when Cause and Effect goes into regress and humans or animals or even plants are out of the picture only knowledge application stops. Or does it actually ????or do we simply remove it coz there is noone to attribute knowledge application to? It sounds more like the latter because knowledge application is a vital part of Cause and Effect, it is in fact the basic law which binds it together. Cause and Effect in fact proves that Nothing happens without knowledge application.

gupsfu wrote:

You're just trying to be funny, right?
If not, you should get your brain examined ASAP.

Ok but you first?. Yes the internet was always there waiting to be discovered. Much like those never before seen deeps creatures recently seen by australian video cameras were always there in the deep sea waiting to be seen.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

Aksel, Ankersen

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

Not everything that gives comfort can be called scientific advancement. Yes, ideally if the whole world does that, it would be much better for humanity. The world is not doing fine with Science at all. It is making life worse. New cars, more deaths. New machine guns. People lead sedentary lifestyles resulting in diseases because of Science. Computers take away jobs from people. Life without Science does not mean an aboriginal life. Scientific inventions are those which we got from attending schools and Science classes, that which can be linked to research and studies. Other than that, other inventions are just made by humans and part of life. Scientific inventions would be electricity, cars, planes, weapons, internet.
However, we would still have candles, lamps, Theatrical plays, horse carriages etc. And lots of herbal medicines. Many dieseases would be wiped out because most are due to lack of exercise, stress which happens in a scientific world.

I think you're confusing science and a mechanized or industrialized level of technology - even if we had and used no artifice there would be nothing wrong with using a scientific method to interpret the world.
_________________
"your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime"

-Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

huxley wrote:

Nonsense. Now you are just making stuff up again.

There is no knowledge necessary for cause and effect to take place, and knowledge application is not a part of the Law of Causality at all.

Yes there is knowlede application. Huxleys uses knowledge to make the chair.

But the tree did not use knowledge to make the wood.

For some things there is knowledge application.

For most things there is not.

Therefore, QED there is no knowledge necessary for cause and effect to take place.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

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