Faith Freedom International :: View topic - For ISLAME: Is there such a thing as "Divine Knowledge?

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Attention: Year 2009 is here Wishing a very Happy New Year to all members of FFI. Our new and improved site is ready. To visit main site, click at faithfreedom.org and to visit our new forum, click at forum09.faithfreedom.org and register again. Do not worry about your old forum posts and PM, everything is saved here till 31st December, 2008 for future references.

For ISLAME: Is there such a thing as "Divine Knowledge?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.

This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> God

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

IandonlyI

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 2884

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:11 am Post subject:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

IandonlyI wrote:

Well technically anything that makes your mind feel good makes you healthy and positive thinking is one of those things that makes you feel good. You can give any reasons for it but the end result is positive thinking is good for health.

Oh you think? How about crystal methamphetamine? It has such a powerful ability to "make your mind feel good" that it will destroy your health in short order. Experiments with rats have shown that if a researcher gives the rat control over an electrode planted in the pleasure centers of their brains, they will stimulate that electrode continuously until they finally die of starvation.

We are confronted here with the confirmation of my earlier post that emotional states and related behaviors, good or bad, are ambivalent. Is positive thinking good for health? Often? Yes. Always? No.

Health is most powerfully impacted by behavior, not by thoughts. All the positive attitude in the world is no substitute for proper nutrition and 30 minutes of exercise 5 days a week.

Now... that said, the connection between mind and body is neither mysterious nor mystical. They are, after all, the same thing. As I've said many times before... mind is what brain does. There is no independent existence for mind and body. Livers and kidneys and gonads and brains all have their particular functions. Mind is the brain's function just as filtration is the kidneys. We do not debate the "urine-body" problem, so why would we imagine a "mind-body" problem?

landonlyl wrote:

If your question actually meant that where has science proven whether they are positive or negative. Well, if your nature in general is of an angry man and your mind is always inflamed with anger then it is definately negative. And I thought it was understood that when I say positive or negative things I meant consistently for long time. Obviously being positive one day or being angry one day does not hurt or help you.

Everything in excess is likely to be a problem. Excessive positivity can be just as disabling as excessive anger. We do not have these emotions by accident... each of them serves a purpose that is positive enough to maintain them in our behavioral repertoire across the millennia.

If you are by nature an angry man, then you are merely one extreme of a behavioral continuum from naturally angry to naturally sanguine. But sometimes anger is necessary and appropriate. Sometimes anger saves you.

landonlyl wrote:

Okay I think you took the literal meanings of it. Let rephrase it. Positive things like positive thinking and negative things like anger would fall into which part of the behaviors you mentioned?

My answer is unchanged... they fit into none of those categories you offered. None of them are "things" and all of them can be true and/or false simultaneously.

landonlyl wrote:

And when I say positive and negative things, yes Science hasn't proven they are positive or negative at one instance but when something is done for long period it can bring certain results which are either positive. So yes science has proven that positive thinking for longer period brings positive results and negative things like anger for longer period does bring negative results. Just a revisit.

I must ask again.... where has science ever proven this? "The Power of Positive Thinking" has become cliche for "meaningless pop psychology." Your discussion here is so amorphous and imprecise as to be essentially meaningless. You are saying little more than "god things are good" which is a tautology. The important questions are 1) how do you define good? and 2) How do you balance competing goods and bads?

There are certainly behaviors that enhance health, and sometimes they correlate with elevated mood. Is that a cause or an effect? And when do you know you've done too much?

Ever heard of Kundalini Syndrome?

One Para. for each one of your answers

Okay this argument is actually absurd because no one was talking about excessiveness. If you are calm by nature does that mean you never get angry? Where is that logic from? You are taking this argument the wrong way for a purpose of just winning the debate. Although you have all the right to debate till the last drop being ridiculous and just prove your point right no matter what is not a good sign of a debater. No I diddnt know about crystal methamphetamine and neighter do I need to for this debate. Hell why not talk about Potassium Cynide? You can bring in many puzzles to our health as you did about nutrition and excercise but that is taking the argument the wrong way. The point here is overall does positive thinking have positive results on us or not?

Who denied your second answer too? Is that something new you are telling us that anything in access is harmfull? Did I mean that because you are positive thinker means that you think nothing but positive? Sir it means that overall you are a positive thinker. It is no news if you tell me that positive thinking in excess is bad too. When someone is positive in nature does not mean they never think negative on a subject. Negative thinking is as important and all are aware of it. If you do business you should mostly think negative as in think of worst and hope for the best. Sorry sir I am not out of kinter garden for like a week.

Your third answer. Again, I am not out of kinter garden and I will not let you derail the debate so let's take this step by step. Let's take hope for example and one of your statement below.

Something that exists and is also conceived is "knowledge" that is "true."

So tell us Mr. huxley does hope exist and is it also concieved and is it also true or not?

For your last answer. Again you either diddnt understand or we are debating on different levels. EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THAT EXCESSIVE OF ANYTHING IS BAD. BUT WHO SAID ANYTHING IN EXCESSIVE? Again, if you are positive thinker does not mean you think nothing but positive or if you are a calm man does not mean you never get angry. When someone says you by nature are positive thinker does not mean that he person only thinks positve but overall the person thinks positive. And that sir is good for health.

So let's get on track again and let's see if positive thinking is good for health or not?
_________________
If you cannot see god in all, how can you see god at all?

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject:

huxley wrote:

Your arguments on that issue were destroyed months ago. That is why we discuss them no longer. All points of view are irrelevant. Not just the baby's. Your complete inability to meet the challenge that began this thread.

The challenge has been beautifully met. You have not yet destroyed any argument as yet,but u can continue to attempt to do so. My last answer on Cause and effect has not be refuted yet, it seems you do not have any more answers. I make it a point to refute all your points.
you say "knowledge must be known" which i do agree. But knowing also depends on whether we really know what or who can know? Isnt that correct? Jesus says God knows too. So what do we make of jesus knowledge and God's knowledge? Isnt it the unknown that we speak of?? i ask you again then. whose knowledge do we use to accept or reject God? your knowledge, mine or einsteins? you forget that there are billions of Knowers and many knowers believe divine knowledge too.

landonlyl wrote:

About something to be true it need not be known, yes there might be many things that science has not discovered that might actually be true but we dont know about it yet, but that is useless, because what we dont know we dont know. Whatever that is is useless as far as we are concerned because it might be true but we dont know. However, if you are hinting at the feeling of God then the statement is little off, because the idea of God is known, it is not proven in lab, but it is known.

Yes the idea of God is known. That is my argument too. But i take God as a general term for the divine knowledge. I believe there exists such a knowledge which is aware. I have had personal experiences with this unknown.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject:

landonlyl wrote:

Although you hae to give Mr. Huxley lot of credit for his knowledge and reasoning. He is one of the most logical people I have met here. Problem however with the people of science and especially evolution is that they totally discount what is no good with science when science is nowhere close to even solving 0.01% of human problems and quest. I am not a person who will believe in a system with that much success. However, for the things science has proved so far they are pretty good proofs so science need not be discarded but other systems are atlest important untill the success ratio of science is somewhere around 50% or so.
Lastly, evolutionists can say wahtever they want, so far, they have only proved the physical aspects of evolution. The important thing is intelligence which might or might not evolve along with us but the birth of so much intelligence around us could not have came without an input. In fact, intelligence has to come before us for so many intelligent things in us so if intelligence evolved along with us questions become even more complicated.

There is no such thing as Science existing seperate from life. And thus used as a means to assess life. Life dictates Sciences, so what we have in fact is just life. I have discussed this too before.
The quest for God is the answer for this life. Life is knowledge and by its defintion requires a knower.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject:

IandonlyI wrote:

Okay this argument is actually absurd because no one was talking about excessiveness.

How can we not? Certainly you do not to intend to manufacture a desired conclusion by ignoring the complete situation. That would be arguing in a vicious circle... in fact essentially stacking the deck to reach a preconceived conclusion.

If you want to label something as unambiguously good or bad you must take a comprehensive view. The universe is Darwinian, not Platonic. It does not exist of "ideals" that are perfect and from which every variance is "less perfect." It is composed of continua. The variation reflects truth, not the mean.

If you want to call something "good" you have two choices: Either show that it is good in all its variations, or show that it is good in net sum.

If you choose the first, then nothing is good. If you choose the second then a lot of things are counterintuitively good. Things like anger, jealousy and hate.

This poses a conundrum only to the naive.

landonly wrote:

If you are calm by nature does that mean you never get angry? Where is that logic from?

I have made no such argument.

landonly wrote:

You are taking this argument the wrong way for a purpose of just winning the debate. Although you have all the right to debate till the last drop being ridiculous and just prove your point right no matter what is not a good sign of a debater. No I diddnt know about crystal methamphetamine and neighter do I need to for this debate. Hell why not talk about Potassium Cynide? You can bring in many puzzles to our health as you did about nutrition and excercise but that is taking the argument the wrong way.

I disagree. It may be taking the argument in a way that is inconvenient to you, but it is absolutely necessary to understand what is true.

landonly wrote:

The point here is overall does positive thinking have positive results on us or not?

Sometimes yes... sometimes no. I suspect that "overall" it is neutral. It is certainly less valuable than positive action.

landonlyl wrote:

Your third answer. Again, I am not out of kinter garden and I will not let you derail the debate so let's take this step by step. Let's take hope for example and one of your statement below.

Something that exists and is also conceived is "knowledge" that is "true."

So tell us Mr. huxley does hope exist and is it also concieved and is it also true or not?

If you define hope as a behavior rather than a thing, yes it exists and yes it is knowledge. Sometimes it is true. Sometimes it is not.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

IandonlyI

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 2884

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:19 am Post subject:

Mr. huxley wrote:

Quote:

landonly wrote:
The point here is overall does positive thinking have positive results on us or not?

Sometimes yes... sometimes no. I suspect that "overall" it is neutral. It is certainly less valuable than positive action.

You this is how I debate, when I am wrong I admit and when you are wrong, you admit. But I guess unless the rules are pre-established this is all very futile.

You know very well, that positive thinking is good fos us(health). There is no sometimes or other times and you also know that positive thinking does not mean positive thinking always but overall thinking.

You know you have a lot at stake so you will not admit something that is true as science sees it. Is this all I am suppose to make of athiest power?

If you are going to admit or thwart this we can carry on otherwise debate is over from my end.

Later

IandonlyI
_________________
If you cannot see god in all, how can you see god at all?

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject:

IandonlyI wrote:

You know very well, that positive thinking is good fos us(health). There is no sometimes or other times and you also know that positive thinking does not mean positive thinking always but overall thinking.

You know, it's very bad form to tell your debate opponent what he does or does not know. If you want to understand what I "know very well" then you should ask me. And when I answer, you should accept that answer and not pretend that I answered differently.

Positive thinking is often good for your health. Positive thinking can also kill you. I have relatives (through marriage) who are Christian Scientists.... and I assure you that their positive thinking is often very detrimental to their health.

As I said before, sometimes yes... sometimes no. I suspect that "overall" it is neutral. It is certainly less valuable than positive action.

landonlyl wrote:

You know you have a lot at stake so you will not admit something that is true as science sees it. Is this all I am suppose to make of athiest power?

I am not an atheist. So make of it what you choose. That said, I am at a complete loss as to what you imagine I have at stake in this discussion.

landonlyl wrote:

If you are going to admit or thwart this we can carry on otherwise debate is over from my end.

It barely got started. Bye.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:12 am Post subject:

Huxley, happy new year to you my friend. I hope you can muster some good arguments to support your claim in the year 2009. However, it seems you still havent got a refutation to my last post which was posted to you last year. As always, i await your refutations. _________________ i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

Display posts from previous:

	Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> God	All times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Page 10 of 10

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum