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Embrace Islam, reap the benefits or deny it, lament the loss
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Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> The Effect of Islam on Muslims

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Orang_utan

Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 60

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:28 am Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

Hi all,

There is a statement:
" You embrace Islam and reap the benefits or you deny it and lament the loss. Its all a personal mindset".

I see this statement as a universal truth, whether in this forum or elsewhere in the world. Any comments?

personal = not universal

good = not evil

god = not satan

please think logically friend

Let me summarize what you wrote for you that is quite illogical

1. your god says that men should follow him, but when god is deceiving human with satanic verse, it's justice to do so, for both men and satan are his creation

2. human nature is good, but god is capable of evil, such as letting his follower being harmed by satan.

Quote:

In contrast, an All Merciful God should allow Satan to do it

3. your god is all merciful and justice, so he's just a referee watching human fight with satan.....

so you see why we laugh?

_________________
Orang Utan
Smarter then regular religious Fanatics

Ram

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 1502

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:00 am Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

Ram wrote:

What guidance that has been made clear to him? We need more information about the guidance you are talking about. Believing in what? What do you want us to believe in?

Believe there's no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger

Ram wrote:

Day of judgement? What judgement? I am not harming anyone. There are courts to judge us if we commit a crime.

This world we live in is not a just world. As a sign of His Justice, Allah created The Day of Judgement to straighten out everything and to justifies all deeds. Those who were guided go to Heaven, those who denies guidance and follows Satan, goes to Hell. Its clear that you're harming yourself by denying guidance.

Ram wrote:

Let me tell you this, no body is lamenting the loss of peace here. I am at peace.

Are Muslims at peace? Muslims are the angriest people in the world. Why there is so much strife in Muslim countries?

My statement is this:

Leave Islam and join the humanity. Any other religion is better than Islam. After reading the Qur'an I came to the conclusion that Allah is really a Satan. Islam is the major cause of strife in the world. Islam has been a curse on humanity. Islam is war.

Its foolish to judge a car by its driver. A car is a car. Some drive it properly, some drive it recklessly. Islam is straight, like the car. Its the followers (drivers) that's reckless, never the car.

Do you have a proof that Allah is God? Muhammad may be messenger of Allah but I don't give a damn. Besides, Allah is not true God. Allah is an imposter. Allah exists only in your imagination. I don't care if you believe that Allah is God and Muhammad is his prophet. This is your belief, it is not a fact. People of different faiths have different beliefs. Someone else's belief is not better than your belief.

We have the proof that Muhammad was not a prophet. Muhammad was a merchant, caravan raider and a warlord. Muhammad also was a pedophile. You should read the Hadiths about little Ayesha. You want to venerate a pedophile, I don't give a damn but I do not want any part of it.

Whose guidance? What guidance? You have not said one word about what guidance means. So far you have uttered only meaningless platitudes. I'd like you to describe in detail what you mean by guidance. Allah is God is not guidance, it is only a supertitious belief.

What heaven? The heaven with 72 houris for shaheeds? There is no proof that heaven or hell exists. I think this is nothing but a claptrap.
What would you do in heaven? Your heaven seems like a place without any purpose. You go to heaven. I'll go and have a beer with my friends.

By your last statement of your post you seem to admit that there is major cause of strife in this world, otherwise you would not compare your religion with a car and a Muslim with a driver.

I think it is absolutely pathetic that you are reduced to comparing your religion with a car. But I can understand why. Because you do not know what to say. Let me tell you that Islam is a very badly manufactured car and Muslims are very bad drivers.

Tell me this, If Islam is the guidance why are Muslims so backward? In last one thousand years Muslims have not had one scientific achievement to their credit. Is there a great Muslim musician in the world like Yehudi Menuihin or Ravi Shankar? How many books are published in Muslim countries. More books are written by 12 million Jews than 1200 million (1.2 billion) Muslims. Absolutely amazing! Jews have won more than 125 Nobel Prizes while Muslims have only won only 5! What happened to guidance you are talking about? Are there great Muslim scientists in last 100 years like Albert Einstien? Any great technological innovation in any Muslim country?

The world does not really need the type of guidance you are talking about. This 'guidance' is nothing but a curse.

Ram

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 1502

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:10 am Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

That's a very pessimistic view on the car of Islam. Its best if we look at Islam stripped down to its very core. What makes Islam misunderstood by many is the loads of mumble-jumble being add-on to it by those self-proclaiming authority on Islam itself. They (the so-called drivers) distracts many people away from the very core of its teaching, thus giving an impression of Islam as a breakdown car with many failures. It is vital for us to understand the core of Islamic teaching to best see the condition of Islam's car.

If Islam is perfect nobody can add any mumble-jumble on it. The fact that people can be 'mislead' by a self-proclaiming authority of Islam is a proof that Islam is deficient.

Last edited by Ram on Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total

orangupahan

Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 400
Location: New Jerusalem

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:13 am Post subject:

Orang_utan wrote:

personal = not universal

good = not evil

god = not satan

please think logically friend

What's wrong with that logic?
If you have a personal mindset of embracing Islam, it is you who reap the benefits, not anyone else.
If you have a personal mindset of denying Islam, it is you who lament the loss, not anyone else. Its your personal mindset that determines what happens to you.

Its common knowledge.

Orang_utan wrote:

Let me summarize what you wrote for you that is quite illogical

1. your god says that men should follow him, but when god is deceiving human with satanic verse, it's justice to do so, for both men and satan are his creation

Yes. Deceiving is not forcing. There's still choice.

Orang_utan wrote:

2. human nature is good, but god is capable of evil, such as letting his follower being harmed by satan.

I never say human nature is good. God is good. God is especially good by being merciful to requests from all His creations, including Satan. Merciful is good. Furthermore, Satan may only harm those people that Allah allows him to harm, not all people.

Orang_utan wrote:

Quote:

In contrast, an All Merciful God should allow Satan to do it

3. your god is all merciful and justice, so he's just a referee watching human fight with satan.....

so you see why we laugh?

Humans do not fight with Satan, humans choose whether to follow God or to follow Satan. It is humans who fight each other. Those who follows Allah vs those who follows Satan. The funny thing is, nearly all of those who follows Satan didn't realize that they're following Satan. They prefer to close their mind, stuckin their pseudo-comfort of deception.

.
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Crede, ut intelligas~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger" --- Buddha

orangupahan

Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 400
Location: New Jerusalem

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:34 am Post subject:

Ram wrote:

Someone else's belief is not better than your belief.

True

Ram wrote:

We have the proof that Muhammad was not a prophet. Muhammad was a merchant, caravan raider and a warlord. Muhammad also was a pedophile. You should read the Hadiths about little Ayesha. You want to venerate a pedophile, I don't give a damn but I do not want any part of it.

I'm an advocate of pedophilia. Its legal according to Allah's law, there's nothing wrong with it. The problem arises when those who missed out on the opportunity keep oppressing us pedophiles just for the sake of public opinion.

Ram wrote:

Whose guidance? What guidance? You have not said one word about what guidance means. So far you have uttered only meaningless platitudes. I'd like you to describe in detail what you mean by guidance. Allah is God is not guidance, it is only a supertitious belief.

Guidance within the Holy Quran:
"This is the Book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt; to those who fear Allah.
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
They are on (true guidance) from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper."
Al-Baqarah 2:2-5

Ram wrote:

What heaven? The heaven with 72 houris for shaheeds? There is no proof that heaven or hell exists. I think this is nothing but a claptrap.
What would you do in heaven? Your heaven seems like a place without any purpose. You go to heaven. I'll go and have a beer with my friends.

What else to do? humpin' those wide eyed houris, of course. Being raped by 72 hot chicks!!! Whooooaahhh.....Can you imagine that?

Ram wrote:

By your last statement of your post you seem to admit that there is major cause of strife in this world, otherwise you would not compare your religion with a car and a Muslim with a driver.

I think it is absolutely pathetic that you are reduced to comparing your religion with a car. But I can understand why. Because you do not know what to say. Let me tell you that Islam is a very badly manufactured car and Muslims are very bad drivers.

If Islam is perfect nobody can add any mumble-jumble on it. The fact that people can be 'mislead' by a self-proclaiming authority of Islam is a proof that Islam is deficient.

What I'm implying is the straightness of Islam. It has been one way during the age of Prophet Muhammad, and it should always be that way. But unfortunately, the truckloads of junk being smeared on Islam makes it look dirty when the fact is it is a very beautiful way of life.

Ram wrote:

Tell me this, If Islam is the guidance why are Muslims so backward? In last one thousand years Muslims have not had one scientific achievement to their credit. Is there a great Muslim musician in the world like Yehudi Menuihin or Ravi Shankar? How many books are published in Muslim countries. More books are written by 12 million Jews than 1200 million (1.2 billion) Muslims. Absolutely amazing! Jews have won more than 125 Nobel Prizes while Muslims have only won only 5! What happened to guidance you are talking about? Are there great Muslim scientists in last 100 years like Albert Einstien? Any great technological innovation in any Muslim country?

The Jews are the most beloved people of Allah
.
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Crede, ut intelligas~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger" --- Buddha

Ram

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 1502

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:51 am Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

Guidance within the Holy Quran:
"This is the Book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt; to those who fear Allah.

For me Qur'an is uselss. It is not the book of guidance. It is the utterance of a megalomaniac.

Quote:

Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.

To believe in unseen does not make any sense. What the unseen is going to do for me?

Quote:

And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

Revelation? This is absurd. What hereafter?

Quote:

They are on (true guidance) from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper." Al-Baqarah 2:2-5

You are not able to explain what guidance really means. How they will they prosper?

orangupahan

Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 400
Location: New Jerusalem

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:36 am Post subject:

Ram wrote:

To believe in unseen does not make any sense. What the unseen is going to do for me?

The Unseen will either persuade you towards evil or guide you towards salvation. It depends on which Unseen; Allah or Satan.

Quote:

Revelation? This is absurd. What hereafter? You are not able to explain what guidance really means. How they will they prosper?

The guidance is reserved for those who fear Allah, believe in the Unseen, steadfast in prayer, give alms, believing in all the revelations and assured that the Hereafter will come. God promises this. So, everyone who missed out on any of the criteria cannot complain to God "Why has the Guidance not come unto me?". Let's try fulfilling these criteria for a change. We really got nothing to lose.
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Crede, ut intelligas~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger" --- Buddha

Ram

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 1502

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

Ram wrote:

To believe in unseen does not make any sense. What the unseen is going to do for me?

The Unseen will either persuade you towards evil or guide you towards salvation. It depends on which Unseen; Allah or Satan.

This is complete non-sense. This is nothing but humbo jumbo. There are hundrends of Islam like cults in the world which say the same thing.

Quote:

Revelation? This is absurd. What hereafter? You are not able to explain what guidance really means. How they will they prosper?

Why should I fear Allah? Allah who instils fear in me or any other creature is not God, he is no different from satan. God is love but Allah equals fear. I have no desire to pray to Allah because is not real, he only exists in the minds of the brainwashed. I think you are lost in the darkness of Islam. Please step out in the light for a second. You will discover that there is light of knowledge and love in the open world.

So far you have failed utterly to convince me the validity of your arguement. Allah does not exist. Why don't you try to think for a second withouth being constrained by the rigidity of Islam. Islam is extremely rigid ideology which only demands obedience without giving anything in return. The proof is in the status of ummah. The ummah is backward and uneducated. There is no joy among Muslims. There is no music, there is no dance. There is only Qur'an which is full of errors and contradictions. The Qur'an is full of meaningless pronouncements. The Qur'an is full of hatred and cruelty towards fellow human beings.

orangupahan

Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 400
Location: New Jerusalem

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:07 am Post subject:

Ram wrote:

Why should I fear Allah? Allah who instils fear in me or any other creature is not God, he is no different from satan. God is love but Allah equals fear.

Because Allah is The Greatest. We, as His creation, should love and fear Him, The Lord of the heavens and the earth.

Ram wrote:

So far you have failed utterly to convince me the validity of your arguement. Allah does not exist. Why don't you try to think for a second withouth being constrained by the rigidity of Islam. Islam is extremely rigid ideology which only demands obedience without giving anything in return. The proof is in the status of ummah. The ummah is backward and uneducated. There is no joy among Muslims. There is no music, there is no dance. There is only Qur'an which is full of errors and contradictions. The Qur'an is full of meaningless pronouncements. The Qur'an is full of hatred and cruelty towards fellow human beings.

That's a very ignorant view of Islam. But I understand that its not you whose to blame, its most of us Muslims that fails to follow the straight path of Islam. This weakness of today's muslims has painted an ugly picture of Islam within the minds of non-muslims. This picture is taken as the true Islam by the non-muslims whereas it is far from the truth.
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Crede, ut intelligas~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger" --- Buddha

Haik Monsieur

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:33 am Post subject:

Orang wrote:

Because Allah is The Greatest. We, as His creation, should love and fear Him, The Lord of the heavens and the earth.

How does this answer Ram’s question “why one should fear god?”

Orang wrote:

Do us a favour then Orang, just show us an exemplar (a single occasion would be more than enough) for a perfect Ummah in history of Islam. I am waiting.

Haik M
_________________
________________________________

SkepticOfBible

Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 140

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:50 am Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

Ok now I am officially gonna puke!!!!!...If you are living in the Western world, I hope they take and put you in a jail, where you will be someone's bitch. Then we'll see how you feel about sex with children.

DSingh

Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 326
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:13 am Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

...Man I don't believe you said that, I never expected it

_________________

THHuxley_redux wrote:

Watching debates between Christians and Muslims is like watching a boxing match between quadrilateral amputees.

""Everything I ever needed to learn about Islam, I learned on 911.""

Ram

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 1502

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject:

orangupahan wrote:

Because Allah is The Greatest. We, as His creation, should love and fear Him, The Lord of the heavens and the earth.

Your answer tells me that you do not know anything about Allah because he does not exist. How can you love and fear Allah? Either you love him or you fear him. This statement of yours tells us that Islam is illogical. I reject such Allah.

Ram

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 1502

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject:

DSingh wrote:

orangupahan wrote:

...Man I don't believe you said that, I never expected it

Atleast orangupahan is honest.

orangupahan

Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 400
Location: New Jerusalem

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject:

Ram wrote:

orangupahan wrote:

Because Allah is The Greatest. We, as His creation, should love and fear Him, The Lord of the heavens and the earth.

We should love Allah because He is Most Gracious, Most Merciful. He and only He that gives blessings upon our lives. There's no benefit that reaches either Muslims or non-muslims unless it came from Allah. He is the Only Provider.

We should fear Allah because Allah is the only Power that could continually inflict tribulations and suffering upon us in this world and the hereafter. Prophet Muhammad pbuh is very afraid of Allah's wrath that whenever there are dark clouds lingering in the sky, he'd became very restless and sweating profusely. He only calmed down when the rain pours down instead of a heavy thunderstorm.
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Crede, ut intelligas~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger" --- Buddha

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