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Attention: Year 2009 is here
Wishing a very Happy New Year to all members of FFI. Our new and improved site is ready. To visit main site, click at faithfreedom.org and to visit our new forum, click at forum09.faithfreedom.org and register again. Do not worry about your old forum posts and PM, everything is saved here till 31st December, 2008 for future references.
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
| Pointerr wrote: |
| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
| I will only deliver a message. It is upto people to either study it, accept it, or deny it. You have made your choice. |
I thought it was Allah who has decided that we don't see the light ???  Didn't kkoran say that "Allah-ho-Qadir" ??? |
Pointerr I have commented on this in another post. You will need to find and read it. But I will briefly respond to the question.
When a sane person makes a decision, its due to using the Free Will, which ALLAH has created. |
Allah can not create free will and assign it to his creatures if he wants to stay omniscient. "Free Will" and "God's Omniscience" both will not go hand in hand.
| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
| Therefore, anything you do using the "FREE WILL" can basically be referred to as "permitted and made possible" because thats what FREE WILL means. |
Baloney!! Free Will means absolute freedom to do without restraint. Here you use "Permitted" and "Made Possible". Both refers to a force from whom they generate. If you can only Do what is "permitted" or "made possible" it means you have no Free Will at all.
| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
| It is impossible to convince some people because they rely on their ego to lead them. Some pass the limits of no return. Take Saddam Hussein or Hitler as an example. People such as these lose all hopes of seeing the light. So God informs us that these individuals have crossed the no-return limits. |
Well, dear Ahmadi Muslim, If Allah hadn't allowed Saddam Hussein or Hitler to do atrocious acts, they could not have done them at all. Allah knew beforehand Saddam would gas children of Halabja. Allah knew beforehand Hitler would send Jews to gas chambers. Allah knowing all these indicates he controls all these too. All these happened because he let them occur. If it was not for Allah, none of these would have been happened. So, It is all Allah who made and still makes the mess. (This is your Muslims' belief and you can't escape from it)
| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
Its not easy concept to get ur head around.
I hope it was sufficient.
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Of course this is not an easy subject at all. God's omniscience and human's Free Will, this has been a topic which put almost all great philosophers in a quandary. Alvin Plantinga and his explanation has been relatively better from all available stuffs on this from theistic point of view. But unfortunately for theists, Plantinga has been refuted thoroughly. Most recently Raymond Bradley put the last nail in the coffin.
Click >>>Here<<< and witness to the end of Plantinga who had once the best explanation for Free Will and God's omniscience.
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Pointerr
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
| When a sane person makes a decision, its due to using the Free Will, which ALLAH has created. Therefore, anything you do using the "FREE WILL" can basically be referred to as "permitted and made possible" because thats what FREE WILL means. |
There is no free will in Islam, as Allah had already decided much before my creasion that I would leave Islam eventhough I would born to Muslim parents.... don't you agree with this ??? you are doubting on the authority of Allah ??? very bad
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Those who choose to live in the past, remain backward....... |
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Ahmadi Muslim
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Hello Haik,
| Quote: |
| Free Will" and "God's Omniscience" both will not go hand in hand. |
&
| Quote: |
| If you can only Do what is "permitted" or "made possible" it means you have no Free Will at all. |
When we refer to the existence of Free Will, we refer to the humans freedom to take sane decisions for oneself and decide a course of action. This is precisely the reference I have maintained in this discussion. I was not discussing the Creator's Absolute Free Will. There is only ONE ABSOLUTE, and the rest will fall under Relativistic reference frame.
God's free will is Absolute; while Human free will is relative.
| Quote: |
| So, It is all Allah who made and still makes the mess. |
No, it is most certainly not Allah that makes the Mess but your human erroneous mind.
Allah has created humans with the light of Free Will. Humans could not recognise and utilize this Free Will without the fullfilment of fundamentals of Free Decision. If Humans must benefit from the Light (God) then they must understand the relativitic difference from the darkness [evil]. This is why humans understand the Universe in entirely Relativitic terms.
For example, black can not be black in the absence of white. Similarly, good can not be good without the possibility of comparing it with the bad. Free Will [in human terms] simply means humans using their intellect to make intelligent decisions.
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| God's omniscience and human's Free Will, this has been a topic which put almost all great philosophers in a quandary. |
Yes, we are priviliged to understand that you have great philosophers under your study and research! This should surely add weight to your arguments! Appeal to Authority. Denial, Dismissal. Disregard, Misunderstanding, Misinterpretation.
Quran gives muslims a beautiful answer. There can only be one Eternal Absolute, the rest falls victim to relativism, and eventually dies. Read about Entropy. It kills your great philosopers, scientists, planets, stars, universes and big bangs.
Humans should feel privilged to understand that they have been given even a hint of free will, where they have the power to either accept their own Creator, or deny Him. Is this not enough? What did you want on the silver platter? More Freedom? You want to become God then?
Let me tell you your limitations. You were born from your mother without your permission. You will die without your permission. The begining and the end, both taken away from you. Good luck.
| Quote: |
| Well, dear Ahmadi Muslim, If Allah hadn't allowed Saddam Hussein or Hitler to do atrocious acts, they could not have done them at all. Allah knew beforehand Saddam would gas children of Halabja. |
I should be crying now that you have mentioned gassing of innocent people? I should perhaps feel emotionally blackmailed, and eventually agree with your argument.
EVERY SINGLE criminal, a liar, a robber, a rapist, a murderer etc. etc. betray their Creator's gift of Inner Conscience before commiting their crimes. You have the audacity to blame GOD? You are either created, or not created. if you are created then you will listen to the arguments in favour of God. If you are not created then you do not exist. If you do not exist, you are lying to yourself.
So Haik, are you a liar?
Pointerr wrote:
| Quote: |
| There is no free will in Islam, as Allah had already decided much before my creasion that I would leave Islam eventhough I would born to Muslim parents.... don't you agree with this ??? you are doubting on the authority of Allah ??? very bad |
Lets replace Allah with a general term for the Creator, which is GOD. Now lets say there is nothing to stop you from Commiting a crime, because after all you are a human being, and can out of free will, or under pressure; do something less than noble.
If you believe in GOD then you will blame this crime on HIM. IF you are an atheist, then please refer to the argument raised earlier in reference to HAIK.
_________________
Love for All, Hatred for None. www.alislam.org
Watch Parliament House Reception of Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xlZvo10HKA
MUSLIM TV:
http://play.www.muslimtv.servecast.net/wmwebcasts/muslimtv/muslimtv300ken.asx |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quran gives muslims a beautiful answer. There can only be one Eternal Absolute, the rest falls victim to relativism, and eventually dies. Read about Entropy. It kills your great philosopers, scientists, planets, stars, universes and big bangs... say Ahmadi Muslim |
What questions and what answers are you taking dear Ahmadi M?? did you EVEN READ Q'uran??
Islam not only takes away the common sense from smart guys like you.. it simply makes a confused people.. MORE ENTROPY in the brain...
with best..
yeezevee |
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Pointerr
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
Pointerr wrote:
| Quote: |
| There is no free will in Islam, as Allah had already decided much before my creasion that I would leave Islam eventhough I would born to Muslim parents.... don't you agree with this ??? you are doubting on the authority of Allah ??? very bad |
Lets replace Allah with a general term for the Creator, which is GOD. Now lets say there is nothing to stop you from Commiting a crime, because after all you are a human being, and can out of free will, or under pressure; do something less than noble.
If you believe in GOD then you will blame this crime on HIM. IF you are an atheist, then please refer to the argument raised earlier in reference to HAIK. |
Are you sure you want to replace Allah with some other God ??? 
My God never knew that eventhough I was born in the Muslim family, one day, would realize the truth and free from the clutches of Islamic ideology ....
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Those who choose to live in the past, remain backward....... |
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Pointerr
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
| EVERY SINGLE criminal, a liar, a robber, a rapist, a murderer etc. etc. betray their Creator's gift of Inner Conscience before commiting their crimes. You have the audacity to blame GOD? You are either created, or not created. if you are created then you will listen to the arguments in favour of God. If you are not created then you do not exist. If you do not exist, you are lying to yourself. |
So you mean to say that Allah didn't know that a person would betray his/her inner conscience when Allah created that person ? Are are sure this what you believe ?
Or, are you saying that a person can go against what Allah had already decided, much before his creation, depending on that person's inner conscience ???
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Those who choose to live in the past, remain backward....... |
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Pointerr
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
| Let me tell you your limitations. You were born from your mother without your permission. You will die without your permission. The begining and the end, both taken away from you. |
Tell this to wannabe jehadi sucide bombers, they will prove you wrong in the name of Allah
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robinth
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: tanah nirmala
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote]Allah can not create free will and assign it to his creatures if he wants to stay omniscient. "Free Will" and "God's Omniscience" both will not go hand in hand. [/quote]
Hi Haik,
would you elaborate more on your statement above? sorry cos i am not so clear.
anyway I think I had to agreed with you and somehow that explained me why God have to incarnate as a human being to be with us .. just as like he want to say tht by giving his omniscien for human's freewill has been His Greatest Sacrification.
that what I think .....
_________________
God is alive and so are we.... wished tht FFI indonesia be opened near soon ..... I missed this forum alot and hope all mods and all the people OK. |
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Ahmadi Muslim
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Again.
Pointerr wrote:
| Quote: |
| Are you sure you want to replace Allah with some other God ??? |
in response to my sentence:
| Quote: |
| Lets replace Allah with a general term for the Creator, which is GOD. |
Pointerr I clarified what I meant within that one sentence. You are not reading me attentively. If you are not reading me properly then I do not see how you will understand anything that I try to elaborate.
yeezevee wrote:
| Quote: |
| What questions and what answers are you taking dear Ahmadi M?? did you EVEN READ Q'uran?? |
yeezevee why are you such a Munafiq? You teach muslims to respect the prophet on one hand, and then at the same time insult the same prophet. Whats wrong with you?
| Quote: |
| anyway I think I had to agreed with you and somehow that explained me why God have to incarnate as a human being to be with us .. just as like he want to say tht by giving his omniscien for human's freewill has been His Greatest Sacrification. |
Robinth: You can not agree with Haik, as it would go against your religion. Lucifer was the first person to have the intention and will to disobey the command of God, according to your Old Testament. If humans do not have this (free will ie to make good and bad decisions) then you prove your own Book wrong. If Yehweh had not granted man with the "free will" then the need for "Reincarnation" is completely removed.
When do you need Redemption? When you are prone to committing Sin. One can not possibly sin in the absence of free will.
I believe Christianity has borrowed the idea of Re-incarnation from Hinduism. In any case, The SIN REDEMPTION and Re-incarnation can be proven false and un-intelligent with simple common sense logic. Jesus mission was completely different. He is pure of such invented fairytales.
Robinth wrote in his signature:
| Quote: |
| God is alive and so are we.... wished tht FFI indonesia be opened near soon ..... I missed this forum alot and hope all mods and all the people OK. |
Your god is dead. If he was alive then you would have believed and practiced in "Love Thy Neighbour" & "offer the other cheek" teachings. How could you "miss" a forum that preaches hatred against fellow humans, and against another religion?
_________________
Love for All, Hatred for None. www.alislam.org
Watch Parliament House Reception of Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xlZvo10HKA
MUSLIM TV:
http://play.www.muslimtv.servecast.net/wmwebcasts/muslimtv/muslimtv300ken.asx |
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robinth
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: tanah nirmala
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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@Ahmadi,
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Robinth: You can not agree with Haik, as it would go against your religion. Lucifer was the first person to have the intention and will to disobey the command of God, according to your Old Testament. If humans do not have this (free will ie to make good and bad decisions) then you prove your own Book wrong. If Yehweh had not granted man with the "free will" then the need for "Reincarnation" is completely removed.
When do you need Redemption? When you are prone to committing Sin. One can not possibly sin in the absence of free will.
I believe Christianity has borrowed the idea of Re-incarnation from Hinduism. In any case, The SIN REDEMPTION and Re-incarnation can be proven false and un-intelligent with simple common sense logic. Jesus mission was completely different. He is pure of such invented fairytales. |
what do you know abt christianity? you just now nothing. I grew up in muslim community and even till now my religius thought still sometimes contaminated with muslim idea abt God, however now I know how difference is Christianity compare to Islam.
I corrected what you said abv, Christ is Incarnation of God not Re-Incarnation .
According to NT, Christ said that even a single penny will be counted, so what I understood from Christian teachings, is that redemption doesnot mean we are free from punishment. Just like if you break somebody window, you still hv to pay for the window, but the owner forgive you, he will not give you any prejudgment as you go near his window , thought like you will do the same mistake.
If we believe christ is God manifest then we will somehow have to figure it out why He cried when he entered Jerusalem . Why he can feel the pain. all those things that , christians would say, all sacrifation that God has to pay for our lives.....
To give lifes then he feel 'pain'. It is not the same as 'human's pain' however Christ life was a demonstration on what God should be in the eyes of a person who believe him.
sorry, I hv to go and will continue on this issue the soonest i got a time .
_________________
God is alive and so are we.... wished tht FFI indonesia be opened near soon ..... I missed this forum alot and hope all mods and all the people OK. |
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robinth
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: tanah nirmala
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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ahmadi,
and have u read quran? Allah misguide people (13:27). Instead of believing that God will lead us to right path, Islam believe that evil is coming from Allah , and you dare to speak abt freewill?
| Quote: |
| I believe Christianity has borrowed the idea of Re-incarnation from Hinduism |
you're talking speculative, bro. Christianity doesnot know abt reincarnation. Do you aware tht Messiah in Judaism tradition is talking abt God manifested, and as Christn and Judaism believe there only one God so there be only one God incarnation, tht is Messiah. Pls read below:
| Quote: |
Maleakhi 3:1
3:1 See, I am sending my servant, and he will make ready the way before me; and the Lord, whom you are looking for, will suddenly come to his Temple; and the angel of the agreement, in whom you have delight, see, he is coming, says the Lord of armies. |
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However I agreed tht Christianity,Judaisme, Hinduism and all God in tradition are similar though have a significance difference and definitely if understand God, we will know that He is not Allah.
| Quote: |
| One can not possibly sin in the absence of free will |
what is sin? it is not an absence of freewill but the sin is against God's will and God's will is definitely right as God will come out as a winner if he be judged.
that why Hillal bin sharar ( crescent and star/known as Lucifer...hmm so co accident with Islam's symbol, crescent and star)hv to be away from God presence as angel should not having freewill but God's nature, I believe, is including free will.
You may notice that Christian look so ignorant when we hv to deal with sin, it is not abt redemption but it is abt how tht as long as our breath is still with us, there still be an open door to be with Him and it means giving our free will to become His will.
I suspect tht this also what Islam means when he talk abt submission, too bad , islam submit to Allah that is not God , so that Allah's will is not God will therefore u find so many terroris activitis claimed he just did Allah's will, not forgetting this Allahuakbar .. screaming in the air, proudly proclaimed Allah will againts God will. So sad...
| Quote: |
| Your god is dead. If he was alive then you would have believed and practiced in "Love Thy Neighbour" & "offer the other cheek" teachings. How could you "miss" a forum that preaches hatred against fellow humans, and against another religion? |
that bcs Islam is a hatred religion that you hv tht point of view. Indonesia people hv to understand how destructive islam to indonesia's culture and yes all netter FFIndo , hate Islam , but many of them love moslems. that including me. How I can hate moslem, they hv been my relative, close friends for so many years. Joining FFI is the only things that I can do, cos i don't hv a guts to tell them frankly what I think abt this evil spirit lying in islam's teachings.
indeed, I am practicing what he has taught me tht why I pray that FFI Indo will re-open, so that many Indon' brother and sister will know the truth, will be able to escape himself from Ungodly Islam doctrines. I don't give a damn of what religion they will be , after Islam ...
I love my bros and sist to spend my time contributing what I hv in mind in FF indonesian and I found so many great articles from others, especially from netter namely Hillman tht hopefully can influence indo moslems to realise what an evil teaching they hv been in .
sorry, to disagree with you. You know nothing abt Jesus, offer the cheek is an active words to say that to be patient when we opressed but its nothing to do with an evil spirit.
instead you can read below , that Jesus is very intolerant with all this evil spirit and if he is here today he will be eager to be one of FFI contributor, I believe .
| Quote: |
Markus 8:33
8:33 But he, turning about, and seeing his disciples, said sharply to Peter, Get out of my way, Satan: for your mind is not on the things of God, but on the things of men.
Matius 9:33
9:33 And when the evil spirit had been sent out, the man had the power of talking: and they were all surprised, saying, Such a thing has never been seen in Israel.
Matius 17:18
17:18 And Jesus gave orders to the unclean spirit, and it went out of him: and the boy was made well from that hour. |
brgds,
Hi Emma,
I salute you for your struggling escaping from Islam,i know is tough. my advise is that concentrating on what you can understand abt true God, be tough on what you believe is right. In my life, I hv seen moslems are most stubborn people, they will deny his own truth in the sake of islam. Act speak louder than words. So be patient.. they will see God thru u and will be free , and it all depend on persistence.Don't get stress and be faithful.My pray with u.
_________________
God is alive and so are we.... wished tht FFI indonesia be opened near soon ..... I missed this forum alot and hope all mods and all the people OK. |
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robinth
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: tanah nirmala
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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in addition,
in my opinion, if not by free will, it is only need one time against Godwill to put us in death (it means a conditions without God, cos God=source of life).
and tht by giving free will, God has created ' a world' where though how many time we have did something against His will,as long as we still in this world, we still hv got a chance to be with Him.
and when He decided to give us the best things that happen to us, he did it in His omniscient, as he know that only free will that will give human an ability to develop 'strong love' .
God is love, and he cannot stop himself from creating, as it is his nature ... and how love can grow without freewill?
Islam is a teachings that request us to give up freewill by force by showing Allah as a punisher... but christ's teachings tht request us to give up freewill by our own will bcs we love God and want to be united with Him so that his will becoming our will .
that why, if i am not mistaken , it is st francis who said by giving our life we will received it back.
I hope you can understand why I had to agreed with Haik... in a human point of view that God be not omniscient when he give us free will , but if look further , it is in his omniscient that he give us free will so that we now our way back home as he don't want us to be in place where there is no God.. that is Death...
and that is the risk of creation , that God had to bear and in his omniscient he know that man will mis used his freewill so badly that he crossed the One that invented it in our hearts but yet in his omniscients he know that the risk is worth taking bcs , he is love and only by love we can be united with him.
now u may ask me why God not create us in united with Him... Ok we just go back to stage one.. bcs it is means no creation at all.
and you should try to understand what is written by st paul, that there are faith,hope and love and love is the greatest....
and that chrstian teaching says , ironic to what people think if someone submit himself to God he will lose everythings ... instead God will make him bigger and bigger ,and do things beyond what he thought he can do bcs God having unlimited power.
PS: sorry for my english as this is not my mother tongue so I am not so good at expressing my thought.
_________________
God is alive and so are we.... wished tht FFI indonesia be opened near soon ..... I missed this forum alot and hope all mods and all the people OK. |
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Ahmadi Muslim
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| PS: sorry for my english as this is not my mother tongue so I am not so good at expressing my thought. |
Robinth: If you are representing Christianity and ideas like Incarnation then I really do not have to read anything more.
The message of christianity is different from what you believe today. Jesus did not come to die for anyone. He was not god, or incarnate of god, or son of god.
As for ALLAH forcing people to believe in him, or islam forcing people to give up their free will for Allah; I dont have to explain this to you because you will definitely not understand.
good luck to you in the search of the truth.
_________________
Love for All, Hatred for None. www.alislam.org
Watch Parliament House Reception of Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xlZvo10HKA
MUSLIM TV:
http://play.www.muslimtv.servecast.net/wmwebcasts/muslimtv/muslimtv300ken.asx |
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Pointerr
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahmadi Muslim wrote: |
As for ALLAH forcing people to believe in him, or islam forcing people to give up their free will for Allah; I dont have to explain this to you because you will definitely not understand.
good luck to you in the search of the truth. |
Ahamadi Muslim, in search of the truth, one thing I understood very well that, whether you try to explain or nor, whether you accept or not, Allah is definitely forcing the 98% Muslims world-wide to prevent Ahamadi Muslims to enter in Mecca and Medina  .... it's not ironic ???
_________________
Those who choose to live in the past, remain backward....... |
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robinth
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: tanah nirmala
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Robinth: If you are representing Christianity and ideas like Incarnation then I really do not have to read anything more.
The message of christianity is different from what you believe today. Jesus did not come to die for anyone. He was not god, or incarnate of god, or son of god. |
And so what is a difference between christian who worship Jesus with Moslems who would die for Muhamad?
too bad you can not understand indonesia,if only u can , you should read Hilman's thread in FFI indonesia : Does Quran agree Jesus is God?.
| Quote: |
| As for ALLAH forcing people to believe in him, or islam forcing people to give up their free will for Allah; I dont have to explain this to you because you will definitely not understand. |
if Allah not forcing people, why Quran threatened people who not believe in Allah with all the scary punishments?
| Quote: |
| good luck to you in the search of the truth. |
Thank you, I owed moslems who I grew up with , that now I understand God and yes you are correct, that i feel lucky and blessed and now I feel obliged to share with my indonesia bro's and sis's thru FFI indon tht why I miss it alot.
pointer wrote:
| Quote: |
| Ahamadi Muslim, in search of the truth, one thing I understood very well that, whether you try to explain or nor, whether you accept or not, Allah is definitely forcing the 98% Muslims world-wide to prevent Ahamadi Muslims to enter in Mecca and Medina .... it's not ironic ??? |
heheh ironic but does ahmadi care ? i don't think so .. he so in love with Muhamad tht whateve evil teaching in Islam he will think that Muhamad is kind of God.
I condemn moslems like Ahmadi who preaching islam as peace religion,screaming abt love , freewill while it is an absurd ideas if we talk inside islamic context cos quran never say abt those valuable things that make a man human.
in FFI, persons like you will be called as Taqqiya-ers
_________________
God is alive and so are we.... wished tht FFI indonesia be opened near soon ..... I missed this forum alot and hope all mods and all the people OK. |
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