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4everChristian
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 42
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 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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my purpose in this tread is not to defend whether Christianity is true of false, since an accusation has been made several places, this tread is to to determine whether i am an "idiot" to be a Christian, to believe in Christianity, and hope in God, and the afterlife.
i find it interesting, on this forum the level of criticism leveled at those who have faith in Christianity, a few on this forum forum have even labeled Christians as, morons, idiots, self deluded, ignorant, intolerant. (the Islamic critics despise Christianity in the face of proof in there own holy books, that true Muslims are all of these things, just a reflection of there own false prophet)
in truth you can talk till you are blue in the faith about proof of the religion, without getting anywhere good, questions are, is there any merit to my faith? (whether "you" believe my faith true or not.) does the world gain any benefit, or come to any great harm from the true biblical Christian faith? is it really a sign of stupidity to believe in Christianity?
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this is my experience of what my faith has called me to, and what impact it has had on my life.
first off, my faith saved my marriage, i have been healed from much evil, am in the process of healing. and have been called help to heal others engaged in the evils i was trapped in (if your interested in details, please respect my privacy, if you wish PM me do so i will answerer dependent on your posting history on ffi, and whether i think you are likely to keep my confidence) i have been blessed with two children, the first conceived with the help of medicine, the second, a very unlikely surprise (my "Miracle baby") at times i have been called by some, a good man, although i will claim that if I have the shown the appearance of such, its only because of the times i was able to follow the example of my savior and master, Jesus Christ.
....................
a note to the atheists, in order for you to convert me to atheism, you would have to explain to me how, without a the existence of a supreme being, i could have seen my uncommonly unique in appearance, first daughter 3 years before she was conceived. you are free to believe me or not. call me a liar if you will, for i have no prove for you as to my "vision" and for me, it was not meant to be proof of God, but a wake up call to change my heart.
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Psycho Bunny
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 7620
Location: Apologies to Ali but to everyone else: I'M BACK!!!!
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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This is just a personal opinion -
I think there is nothing wrong with having a religion - even Islam - and it can be a beneficial thing, as long as it makes one want to be a better and more positive human being, particularly towards other fellow human beings.
I am an atheist (perhaps an agnostic, I am am not sure) but I see most Christians as decent people.
I get damned annoyed at those who profess Christianity or any other religion, and then proceed to deliberately mangle the basic principles of science to justify their particular literalist interpretation of the Bible or any other holy book.
That is lazy thinking, and I do not approve of lazy thought.
I am sure having a sense of faith can make one a better person/partner, and I am sure having faith creates a more positive outlook.
I do not know about visions - but from what I have read of your posts, I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve you. I could be a cynic and discuss the mechanics of perception and deja-vu but that would be deliberately harsh for the sake of it.
I can say for certain that when particular people I know - close friends and family in particular (my father, my aunt) - die, I usually get a "forewarning" of the event. And it is real - and cannot be explained away easily.
I was upset recently when I found that two friends who had been fairly close (but not soul-mates) had died - one six months ago and one ten months ago - and I had had no inkling. They were not close like the others, but I still expected to get some "feeling" that they had gone. With one I had a suspicion that he could have died, but it was nowhere near as clear or as synchronous as other times when I knew for certain that people had died.
If you see me arguing here with Christians and getting nasty, it is often because I am arguing against what I perceive to be "arrogant positions" or "arrogant attitudes", not because I am against Christians or Christianity per se.
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The Pagaal Chamar Bhangi Khargosh rules!!
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THHuxley_redux
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| 4everChristian wrote: |
| my purpose in this tread is not to defend whether Christianity is true of false, since an accusation has been made several places, this tread is to to determine whether i am an "idiot" to be a Christian, to believe in Christianity, and hope in God, and the afterlife. |
First... understand how silly the stated purpose of this thread is to begin with. You are either an idiot, not an idiot, or some point on a continuum in between. Where you are on that continuum is likely to be independent of what you believe. There are both geniuses and idiots who believe what you do, and there are both geniuses and idiots who are atheists.
While there is a well established direct correlation between intelligence and atheism... where you fit on the continuum of intelligence should be evaluated on its own merits based more on how you think than on what you think.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i find it interesting, on this forum the level of criticism leveled at those who have faith in Christianity, a few on this forum forum have even labeled Christians as, morons, idiots, self deluded, ignorant, intolerant. (the Islamic critics despise Christianity in the face of proof in there own holy books, that true Muslims are all of these things, just a reflection of there own false prophet) |
I have spent a couple of years away from this forum and only recently returned. Still, my experience is that accusations of idiocy, delusion, ignorance and intolerance are often actually elicited by behavior which is idiotic, deluded, ignorant and intolerant.
Certainly, you do not believe that your co-religionists are incapable of such behavior?
So... again, let's see whether or not you earn the label of "idiot" that you appear so anxious to pursue. I for one am willing to suspend judgment.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| in truth you can talk till you are blue in the faith about proof of the religion, without getting anywhere good, questions are, is there any merit to my faith? (whether "you" believe my faith true or not.) does the world gain any benefit, or come to any great harm from the true biblical Christian faith? is it really a sign of stupidity to believe in Christianity? |
Again... those are very different questions that should be considered seperately. But I am most intrigued by the implications of what you are saying here:
Is it really your position (please, be explicit rather than beating around the bush here) that a pleasant fiction is preferable to an unpleasant truth? Are you actually proposing that falsehood is okay as long as it is "good" falsehood?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
this is my experience of what my faith has called me to, and what impact it has had on my life.
first off, my faith saved my marriage, i have been healed from much evil, am in the process of healing. and have been called help to heal others engaged in the evils i was trapped in (if your interested in details, please respect my privacy, if you wish PM me do so i will answerer dependent on your posting history on ffi, and whether i think you are likely to keep my confidence) i have been blessed with two children, the first conceived with the help of medicine, the second, a very unlikely surprise (my "Miracle baby") at times i have been called by some, a good man, although i will claim that if I have the shown the appearance of such, its only because of the times i was able to follow the example of my savior and master, Jesus Christ. |
A very nice (if excruciatingly ordinary and ambiguous) anecdote. I am thrilled that your marriage is intact. I for one am not the slightest bit interested in the details. After all, if they really were important, you would have already shared them.
I would counter with the anecdote that my marriage is also intact... after 28 years. I have two adult children, neither of whom needed either medical intervention nor miracles to concieve. I am not in the process of healing... having never plunged into the "trap" of "evils" in the first place, even though I rejected Christianity as false when I was 9 years old. I am considered by many people who know me to be a good man, and a great husband and father.
So... for starters we can see that different people behave in different ways right out of the box. You were weak in a way that I am not. Do not consider that an insult, as I am certain that you are also strong in ways that I am not. But for the purpose of this comparison we can only use the example you offered.
Because you were weak in that way, you have found Christiabity useful to support that weakness... much like a crutch supports a bad leg.
Would I ever consider that a bad thing? Of course not... just as I would never consider a crutch a bad thing for a person who really needed one.
But... not for the tiniest fraction of a second would I ever consider a weak leg and a crutch better than a strong leg that did not need to be crutched in the first place.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| a note to the atheists, in order for you to convert me to atheism, you would have to explain to me how, without a the existence of a supreme being, i could have seen my uncommonly unique in appearance, first daughter 3 years before she was conceived. |
Let's pretend for a moment that you had an actual paranormal experience... i.e. you clairvoyantly "saw" your future daughter.
What would a god necessarily have to do with it? Exactly?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| you are free to believe me or not. call me a liar if you will, for i have no prove for you as to my "vision" and for me, it was not meant to be proof of God, but a wake up call to change my heart. |
I suspect you very much believe that was your experience... so I would never call you a liar.
That is a far cry from accepting the story as true.
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4everChristian
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Psycho Bunny wrote: |
This is just a personal opinion -
I think there is nothing wrong with having a religion - even Islam - and it can be a beneficial thing, as long as it makes one want to be a better and more positive human being, particularly towards other fellow human beings.
well, looking at evidence posted on this website, following Islam literally as its presented by its scripture, scholars, and "gurus" does not lead to a good place for anyone, Islamic or non Islamic. as such i will hold out Christianity's superiority to the Islamic religion as written in the Koran. this is not a blast against any Muslims, as there are many decent people who follow in ignorance, and many more who are trapped and fear for there lives should they not follow "the script" so i do pray and hope for freedom in the Islamic world
I am an atheist (perhaps an agnostic, I am am not sure) but I see most Christians as decent people.
I get damned annoyed at those who profess Christianity or any other religion, and then proceed to deliberately mangle the basic principles of science to justify their particular literalist interpretation of the Bible or any other holy book.
I'm not a literalistic in reading the bible, because it does not always tell a literal story,i also understand teh limitations of tranlation, english is both a great launguage to translate into but also in many ways a horrible launguate to tranlate into. and i believe in the laws of physics, and scientific truths (i just believe these laws, and truths are created by God) i do get a bit annoyed at 6 day creationists, because most get so Hung up On 6 days, they forget when the bible says time was created, and most impotently, that "God created"... and then said "it was good" if there is a God, in my opinion Genesis is a descent way for him to have gone about creation.
That is lazy thinking, and I do not approve of lazy thought.
i have my lazy moments from time to time, but i have given much thought, and effort to study the nature of the God i believe in, and the faith i follow, to do any less is one great way to slip into "apostasy"
I am sure having a sense of faith can make one a better person/partner, and I am sure having faith creates a more positive outlook.
the essence of Joy is contentment dispite ones circumstances, not easy to achieve normally but i have been there a few times.
I do not know about visions - but from what I have read of your posts, I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve you. I could be a cynic and discuss the mechanics of perception and deja-vu but that would be deliberately harsh for the sake of it.
personally hard for me think de ja vue, as i remember where i was and what i was doing when i saw the vision, i also told my wife briefly what i had seen when we saw the doctor to work on having the first child.
I can say for certain that when particular people I know - close friends and family in particular (my father, my aunt) - die, I usually get a "forewarning" of the event. And it is real - and cannot be explained away easily.
I was upset recently when I found that two friends who had been fairly close (but not soul-mates) had died - one six months ago and one ten months ago - and I had had no inkling. They were not close like the others, but I still expected to get some "feeling" that they had gone. With one I had a suspicion that he could have died, but it was nowhere near as clear or as synchronous as other times when I knew for certain that people had died.
If you see me arguing here with Christians and getting nasty, it is often because I am arguing against what I perceive to be "arrogant positions" or "arrogant attitudes", not because I am against Christians or Christianity per se. |
as far as i know arrogance is not a "spiritual gift," if you see me doing such, please just point it out, i am willing to admit that i am wrong,
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4everChristian
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| THHuxley_redux wrote: |
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| my purpose in this tread is not to defend whether Christianity is true of false, since an accusation has been made several places, this tread is to to determine whether i am an "idiot" to be a Christian, to believe in Christianity, and hope in God, and the afterlife. |
First... understand how silly the stated purpose of this thread is to begin with. You are either an idiot, not an idiot, or some point on a continuum in between. Where you are on that continuum is likely to be independent of what you believe. There are both geniuses and idiots who believe what you do, and there are both geniuses and idiots who are atheists.
won't get into names, but a few have implicated the entre world of christianity is mentaly deficent by assosiation. (for beleving in fairy tails,) when one is taken to tast for beleving a story, that the body of christian belevers also hold as true and in fact foundational to our belefe, then all of christianity is impuned
While there is a well established direct correlation between intelligence and atheism... where you fit on the continuum of intelligence should be evaluated on its own merits based more on how you think than on what you think.
i haven't always seen the correlation between atheism, and intelligence, anyway, intelligence can be tricky, i have seen highly educated individuals who are so lacking in wisdom as to take on the appearance of ignoramuses (Norman finkelstine, and Noam Chomsky as just two examples) i believe both are also secularist Jews, ( although I don't know if they are atheist) my apology's, but saying theres a well established correlation between intelligence and atheism seem to be a rather arrogant stamen and i would like to see the studs, as well as the internals of the studies.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i find it interesting, on this forum the level of criticism leveled at those who have faith in Christianity, a few on this forum forum have even labeled Christians as, morons, idiots, self deluded, ignorant, intolerant. (the Islamic critics despise Christianity in the face of proof in there own holy books, that true Muslims are all of these things, just a reflection of there own false prophet) |
I have spent a couple of years away from this forum and only recently returned. Still, my experience is that accusations of idiocy, delusion, ignorance and intolerance are often actually elicited by behavior which is idiotic, deluded, ignorant and intolerant.
Certainly, you do not believe that your co-religionists are incapable of such behavior?
of course not, in my life i have been subject vileness from some Christians who could be said to have been all of that, thankfully Christians forgive, so i don't carry them with me wherever i go. (theirs also the plank in the eye thing as well) but, that behavior is not in my experience universal, or typical, (especially for my Christian brothers and sisters on this forum)
So... again, let's see whether or not you earn the label of "idiot" that you appear so anxious to pursue. I for one am willing to suspend judgment.
in the past, and in the future as well, i have, and will likly earn the label of idiot with my own hard work(i caught my wife by admitting i was a bonehead, but that is another story). i will not accept that label simply because I have the hope of Christ in me.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| in truth you can talk till you are blue in the faith about proof of the religion, without getting anywhere good, questions are, is there any merit to my faith? (whether "you" believe my faith true or not.) does the world gain any benefit, or come to any great harm from the true biblical Christian faith? is it really a sign of stupidity to believe in Christianity? |
Again... those are very different questions that should be considered seperately. But I am most intrigued by the implications of what you are saying here:
Is it really your position (please, be explicit rather than beating around the bush here) that a pleasant fiction is preferable to an unpleasant truth? Are you actually proposing that falsehood is okay as long as it is "good" falsehood?
first off in my heart of hearts, i don't believe it is a pleasant falsehood, in my life i have experienced things that cannot be explained without God.
as to what my position is, i would rather go through life with my marriage intact, with my wife healthy, and loving me (not just enduring me for the sake of the kids) my children growing up strong wise, and with a belief in eternal consequence, so they will actively avoid many of the temptations, and life damaging mistakes made by there there parents, grandparents, and peers, so for me, if it is a pleasant fiction, its better than what i know to be the alternative (lets just say i know my own dark heart better than anyone, and its been made clear to me by study and example, and recovery, where i would be without God in my life). this is my own personal experience. and is not a judgment of any sort (if you find judgment in the proceeding statement, then you should examine your life, it may be a symptom of something wrong)
| 4everChristian wrote: |
this is my experience of what my faith has called me to, and what impact it has had on my life.
first off, my faith saved my marriage, i have been healed from much evil, am in the process of healing. and have been called help to heal others engaged in the evils i was trapped in (if your interested in details, please respect my privacy, if you wish PM me do so i will answerer dependent on your posting history on ffi, and whether i think you are likely to keep my confidence) i have been blessed with two children, the first conceived with the help of medicine, the second, a very unlikely surprise (my "Miracle baby") at times i have been called by some, a good man, although i will claim that if I have the shown the appearance of such, its only because of the times i was able to follow the example of my savior and master, Jesus Christ. |
A very nice (if excruciatingly ordinary and ambiguous) anecdote. I am thrilled that your marriage is intact. I for one am not the slightest bit interested in the details. After all, if they really were important, you would have already shared them.
I would counter with the anecdote that my marriage is also intact... after 28 years. I have two adult children, neither of whom needed either medical intervention nor miracles to concieve. I am not in the process of healing... having never plunged into the "trap" of "evils" in the first place, even though I rejected Christianity as false when I was 9 years old. I am considered by many people who know me to be a good man, and a great husband and father.
and honestly, i am very happy for you and your family, and pray you enjoy best of life. we both have likely seen the effects of broken family's, (not my own extended family thankfully) and it truly is a horrible thing.
So... for starters we can see that different people behave in different ways right out of the box. You were weak in a way that I am not. Do not consider that an insult, as I am certain that you are also strong in ways that I am not. But for the purpose of this comparison we can only use the example you offered.
Because you were weak in that way, you have found Christiabity useful to support that weakness... much like a crutch supports a bad leg.
Would I ever consider that a bad thing? Of course not... just as I would never consider a crutch a bad thing for a person who really needed one.
But... not for the tiniest fraction of a second would I ever consider a weak leg and a crutch better than a strong leg that did not need to be crutched in the first place.
i said nothing about a crutch, one who has been healed has no need of a crutch, tell me a Dr saved my life, what kind of person would i be if i didn't at at least acknowledge the doctor (one doctor Mazar in fact) who saved my life with a diagnosis, or what if i claimed credit for the diagnosis?, ans said i healed myself, (saying the surgery had nothing to do with it) so i give Credit to God for healing the hurts and pain i have received, mostly at my own hand, but also from the evils of the world. and about my needing a crutch, do a bit of self examination,(without comment on this thread) what areas in life do you find the need of a crutch, have you some lameness, or weakness. your in good company, everyone is in the same boat, truth is some avoid seeing any weakness (our Islamic brothers are artful at avoiding this truth, just read there words) so dosen't a sick man, or a dying man in fact need a doctor?
but we haven't been talking about a physical ailment here, we have been using lameness to symbolize something that is hard to define for lack of a better term, what "I" have had is a spiritual or moral weakness or ailment, for witch God has been the best answerer, The news i "Preach" is that Jesus is that answerer (just as i would recommend DR. Mazer to you, should you have a difficult to diagnose lung ailment)
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| a note to the atheists, in order for you to convert me to atheism, you would have to explain to me how, without a the existence of a supreme being, i could have seen my uncommonly unique in appearance, first daughter 3 years before she was conceived. |
Let's pretend for a moment that you had an actual paranormal experience... i.e. you clairvoyantly "saw" your future daughter.
What would a god necessarily have to do with it? Exactly?
the message i got from God was clear, "this is what i'm going to do for you (the gift of a daughter) what are you going to do with it", this was the start of a long journy for me, as i said, i know where am very likly to have ended up without this journy i took with God, so i needed this wake up call, at this time (call it a tiping piont in my life
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| you are free to believe me or not. call me a liar if you will, for i have no prove for you as to my "vision" and for me, it was not meant to be proof of God, but a wake up call to change my heart. |
I suspect you very much believe that was your experience... so I would never call you a liar.
That is a far cry from accepting the story as true. |
i don't ask you to believe in God, or accept my tale as true, as i have no proof to give you, you have the benefit of reasonable doubt. i posted it to show the I have an honest reason to believe in god, for me personally it is not a fairy tail.
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FreePower
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 564
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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Hello 4everChristian
I found your story to be very compelling, in some ways I relate to it myself. To the world your faith may seem stupid and people might ridicule you for it, but they did it to Christ first and so we can expect no less. As for the majority of people they do not have the inner understanding we have, our faith might seem crazy and ludicrous, but for us it makes perfect sense. It is something only God can show and change within a person. One thing I've learned is that no matter how much evidence, experiences you try to show a person, if they are not willing to listen then you are just throwing pearls to swine.
Take Care
FreePower
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The Meeting House - What convinced me - www.themeetinghouse.ca - Irreligious Christians
“The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about” |
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chiplee
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| FreePower wrote: |
Hello 4everChristian
One thing I've learned is that no matter how much evidence, experiences you try to show a person, if they are not willing to listen then you are just throwing pearls to swine.
Take Care
FreePower |
so everyone who fails to see it your way is a pig?
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"[The Bible] has noble poetry in it... and some good morals and a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of a thousand lies." Mark Twain
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FreePower
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 564
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:54 am Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| chiplee wrote: |
| FreePower wrote: |
Hello 4everChristian
One thing I've learned is that no matter how much evidence, experiences you try to show a person, if they are not willing to listen then you are just throwing pearls to swine.
Take Care
FreePower |
so everyone who fails to see it your way is a pig? |
No, I read my post again and that might have been the impression given, but that was not my intent. People are people no matter what they believe.
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The Meeting House - What convinced me - www.themeetinghouse.ca - Irreligious Christians
“The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about” |
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THHuxley_redux
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| 4everChristian wrote: |
| won't get into names, but a few have implicated the entre world of christianity is mentaly deficent by assosiation. (for beleving in fairy tails,) when one is taken to tast for beleving a story, that the body of christian belevers also hold as true and in fact foundational to our belefe, then all of christianity is impuned |
I thought you were a Christian? After 2000 years you should be used to at least some of that by now. Sure beats being fed to the lions, right?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i haven't always seen the correlation between atheism, and intelligence |
I do not expect you see it.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| anyway, intelligence can be tricky, i have seen highly educated individuals who are so lacking in wisdom as to take on the appearance of ignoramuses (Norman finkelstine, and Noam Chomsky as just two examples) i believe both are also secularist Jews, ( although I don't know if they are atheist) my apology's, but saying theres a well established correlation between intelligence and atheism seem to be a rather arrogant stamen and i would like to see the studs, as well as the internals of the studies. |
I will ignore the seeming anti-semitism in that paragraph and only suggest that if you have an honest desire to see the studies then you should perhaps spend some time looking them up. You do know how to use Google, right?
If you don't... then start here: http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23860215-5005361,00.html
And perhaps it might help you to reconsider your (expected) accusation of arrogance... I am not an atheist. I figured you could not go more than five posts before starting to throw insults... but you beat me.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| in the past, and in the future as well, i have, and will likly earn the label of idiot with my own hard work(i caught my wife by admitting i was a bonehead, but that is another story). i will not accept that label simply because I have the hope of Christ in me. |
There you have it. You are a self admitted "idiot." It appears (as suggested) to be independent of your Christianity.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| first off in my heart of hearts, i don't believe it is a pleasant falsehood, in my life i have experienced things that cannot be explained without God. |
That wasn't my question... was it?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| as to what my position is, i would rather go through life with my marriage intact, with my wife healthy, and loving me (not just enduring me for the sake of the kids) my children growing up strong wise, and with a belief in eternal consequence, so they will actively avoid many of the temptations, and life damaging mistakes made by there there parents, grandparents, and peers, so for me, if it is a pleasant fiction, its better than what i know to be the alternative (lets just say i know my own dark heart better than anyone, and its been made clear to me by study and example, and recovery, where i would be without God in my life). this is my own personal experience. and is not a judgment of any sort (if you find judgment in the proceeding statement, then you should examine your life, it may be a symptom of something wrong) |
Awesome. Cuteing through the prolix hemming and hawing, your position appears clear that you would prefer a lie to truth if it works for you.
I can no longer trust you now... can I? To tell the truth, I mean?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i said nothing about a crutch |
No you didn't. I did.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| the message i got from God was clear, "this is what i'm going to do for you (the gift of a daughter) what are you going to do with it", this was the start of a long journy for me, as i said, i know where am very likly to have ended up without this journy i took with God, so i needed this wake up call, at this time (call it a tiping piont in my life |
So... you're talking to god now? What does he look like? Can we expect a scripture from you some time soon?
You said you had a vision. Visions can come from many different places.
How do you know yours was from God?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i don't ask you to believe in God, or accept my tale as true, as i have no proof to give you, you have the benefit of reasonable doubt. i posted it to show the I have an honest reason to believe in god, for me personally it is not a fairy tail. |
It does not matter if you believe it is a fairy tale or not. It only matters if it actually is a fairy tale or not.
Your vision appears to be an honest reason to believe in visions. I am not yet clear on how you connect it with god.
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4everChristian
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| THHuxley_redux wrote: |
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| won't get into names, but a few have implicated the entre world of christianity is mentaly deficent by assosiation. (for beleving in fairy tails,) when one is taken to tast for beleving a story, that the body of christian belevers also hold as true and in fact foundational to our belefe, then all of christianity is impuned |
I thought you were a Christian? After 2000 years you should be used to at least some of that by now. Sure beats being fed to the lions, right?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i haven't always seen the correlation between atheism, and intelligence |
I do not expect you see it.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| anyway, intelligence can be tricky, i have seen highly educated individuals who are so lacking in wisdom as to take on the appearance of ignoramuses (Norman finkelstine, and Noam Chomsky as just two examples) i believe both are also secularist Jews, ( although I don't know if they are atheist) my apology's, but saying theres a well established correlation between intelligence and atheism seem to be a rather arrogant stamen and i would like to see the studs, as well as the internals of the studies. |
best for you to ignore the seeming antisemitism, because it is not anti semitism, its a reference to there particular idiocy (that is self proclaimed secularists, and Jews spouting propaganda for islamofachist muslems who would gladly cut off there heads as soon as they are trough using them)
I will ignore the seeming anti-semitism in that paragraph and only suggest that if you have an honest desire to see the studies then you should perhaps spend some time looking them up. You do know how to use Google, right?
If you don't... then start here: http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23860215-5005361,00.html
And perhaps it might help you to reconsider your (expected) accusation of arrogance... I am not an atheist. I figured you could not go more than five posts before starting to throw insults... but you beat me.
did i accuse you of arrogance? umm, no. sorry you got that impression, and thank you for letting me know your not an atheist, i will remember that. to explain, i though a study that came to that conclusion seemed a Bit arrogant, and i would have to see the study, and the internals, what you gave me was a link to a newspaper article, which was not the study or internals of the study, as such i remain unconvinced, as far as using google, i do know how, but haven't the time to do that study deep enough to do you justice, because of family, work, ministry, and creative obligations. later maybe we can discuss this with the info we need to have an informed debate. (problem i have is an upcoming kite festival, for which i am constructing four kites (i hope) but i will be going away for a month or so, as my free time is not free any longer
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| in the past, and in the future as well, i have, and will likly earn the label of idiot with my own hard work(i caught my wife by admitting i was a bonehead, but that is another story). i will not accept that label simply because I have the hope of Christ in me. |
There you have it. You are a self admitted "idiot." It appears (as suggested) to be independent of your Christianity.
yup, hard work, of corse this was a self depreciating joke, the idiocy i was thinking of when i typed that was the time i laught at my 7 mounth pregnent wife when she "turtled" on her back, had i not been subject to temparary stupidity, i would have immediatly helped her get up
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| first off in my heart of hearts, i don't believe it is a pleasant falsehood, in my life i have experienced things that cannot be explained without God. |
That wasn't my question... was it?
hmm, just a little bit testy, but that wasn't my answer, was it?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| as to what my position is, i would rather go through life with my marriage intact, with my wife healthy, and loving me (not just enduring me for the sake of the kids) my children growing up strong wise, and with a belief in eternal consequence, so they will actively avoid many of the temptations, and life damaging mistakes made by there there parents, grandparents, and peers, so for me, if it is a pleasant fiction, its better than what i know to be the alternative (lets just say i know my own dark heart better than anyone, and its been made clear to me by study and example, and recovery, where i would be without God in my life). this is my own personal experience. and is not a judgment of any sort (if you find judgment in the proceeding statement, then you should examine your life, it may be a symptom of something wrong) |
Awesome. Cuteing through the prolix hemming and hawing, your position appears clear that you would prefer a lie to truth if it works for you.
I can no longer trust you now... can I? To tell the truth, I mean?
ahh, the trap is sprung!, now we get to see which one of us Got caught in it.
to explain, this is the second time i have read your question, (the first was asked of someone else, in another thread... tell me do you save this question for Christians only, or is this an equal opportunity inquisition?  its a bit amusing to me that you tell me you can no longer trust me, and question my ability to tell the truth... for telling you the truth of my life, rather than a convenient lie that might mollify any criticism.
but that being said, you obviously missed the point of my answerer. so let me do a "cost benefit analysis" on your questing in relation to the effect it would have on the economy of my life.
my answerer,
in the debit column, i pay out "your" truth (call it the God fairy tale theory) years of shame, pain and regret. and seemingly, your respect.
in the benefit column, i am paid, my marriage, my children, possibly my life, purpose, significance, and joy. a fellowship with believers, who support, and encourage each other. and a perfectly loving God as a heavenly father. like i say (in the light green above, that paragraph you may have read out of context, this assessment is based on my experience, observations of others, and study. (in short, i know where my life is now, and where it was headed without repentance, and change)
so, in summation. the conclusion, if i am right about God, after having a blessed life, i can dye secure in the promise of an eternity with the body of believers, including some of my own family. if i am wrong about God, i get the blessed life, die and rot, in my last moments secure in the knowledge that my family grieves for me, not because of what i wasn't, and could have been, put for what i am. (in the case of my fathers dad, i grieve for him in the later sense, my father, well i am blessed in that i will Grieve for him in the former sence)
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i said nothing about a crutch |
No you didn't. I did.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| the message i got from God was clear, "this is what i'm going to do for you (the gift of a daughter) what are you going to do with it", this was the start of a long journy for me, as i said, i know where am very likly to have ended up without this journy i took with God, so i needed this wake up call, at this time (call it a tiping piont in my life |
So... you're talking to god now? What does he look like? Can we expect a scripture from you some time soon?
nope, cant tell you what he looked haven't seen him, maybe you can google a few Michaelangelo paintings and get an idea as to what he looks like, but I'm not sure Michelangelo saw him either. but as to God giving me any scripture, yup he gave me lots. so glad to oblige you.
John 3:16 "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son so That man would not perish, but have everlasting life"
prov 30:1 (my life verse) the sayings of agur..I am a fool, and i haven't the wisdome of a man. (a joke)
point being God doesn't give me new scripture, he already included all the scripture i need in the bible, (if you find me giving you "new" Scripture, you have my permission to stone me to death, as i will in fact be a heretic
You said you had a vision. Visions can come from many different places.
How do you know yours was from God?
i don't take drugs, (well, nothing without a prescription that is, and nothing that has hallucinogenic side effects) i don't drink, i don't do hypnotism, self hypnotism, or any new age "altered states of consciousness" techniques (i lead a boring life i guess) maybe it was lack of oxygen due to an Asama attack? only i don't remember having one that day, and that i would remember, as i have only had three attacks in my life. so whats left, maybe you can tell me. regardless, i know what started me on the path to the good life, (what i saw) so where it came from is academic to me
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i don't ask you to believe in God, or accept my tale as true, as i have no proof to give you, you have the benefit of reasonable doubt. i posted it to show the I have an honest reason to believe in God, for me personally it is not a fairy tail. |
It does not matter if you believe it is a fairy tale or not. It only matters if it actually is a fairy tale or not.
this theory does not fit in my life's economy, sorry, besides i have enough prof of gods existence to satisfy me and it actualy dosn't matter to me if the body of body of evidence will satisfy you
Your vision appears to be an honest reason to believe in visions. I am not yet clear on how you connect it with god. |
well, for one, i am a Christian, so i would assume it is other from the evil spirit, or God, since following it to its logical conclusion has brought me closer to God, and been a positive in my life, i cant attribute it to
or it could have been bad cheese, or as underdone potato, but I'm not going to argue with the results regardless
with prayers for joy, peace, and blessings 
4ever christion
see you all in about a mouth or so
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0x29a
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| my purpose in this tread is not to defend whether Christianity is true of false, since an accusation has been made several places, this tread is to to determine whether i am an "idiot" to be a Christian, to believe in Christianity, and hope in God, and the afterlife. |
if I tell you that I believe that The Flying Spaghetti Monster existed before the universe, since even before the begining of time, and that the flying speghetti monster decided one day for an unknown reason to create the universe and to create living creature some he creates to be good and some to be evil and he creates heaven and hell to punish the evil ones and to reward good ones for iternity and forever and ever... do you consider me an idiot?
in order to explain how the above is beyond sanity... I'll tell you that there's a big invisible pink unicorn that exist in your bedroom ( yes invisible and pink at the same time, you're not allowed to ask ), and that the invisible pink unicorn knows what you're doing.. and will jump on you one day and beat you with the powerful unicorn if you do not believe in what I'm saying.. and of course burn you forever.. or you could believe what i say and do as I tell you to do and you'll go to heaven.. good boy.. if I believe in this, do you think i'm stupid?
If you believe in god. no I don't think you're stupid. but i sure don't think you're smart either.
Your belief came out as a result to the intensive brainwash you had when you were young.. or out of personal weakness that you want a powerful unnatural force to help you with your life.. not only that, this brainwash talks about hell and iternal punishment so that you'll not dare to think about it.. since if you do, you'll lose faith.. and you'll discover the truth. |
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4everChristian
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| 0x29a wrote: |
| Quote: |
| my purpose in this tread is not to defend whether Christianity is true of false, since an accusation has been made several places, this tread is to to determine whether i am an "idiot" to be a Christian, to believe in Christianity, and hope in God, and the afterlife. |
if I tell you that I believe that The Flying Spaghetti Monster existed before the universe, since even before the begining of time, and that the flying speghetti monster decided one day for an unknown reason to create the universe and to create living creature some he creates to be good and some to be evil and he creates heaven and hell to punish the evil ones and to reward good ones for iternity and forever and ever... do you consider me an idiot?
in my faith it is fairly clear that evil is a chioce, not a mandate, and we will all be judged by teh chioces we have made, as far the rest, i live in the USA, where we practice tolerence and freedom of religion. as such, i dissagree with this religion, i beleve there is a better way, but you are free to beleve it. i will reserve my opinion of you the belever, as i do not wish to judge you personaly, and its posible you are a perfectly nice person who i could fly kites with in perfect peace.
in order to explain how the above is beyond sanity... I'll tell you that there's a big invisible pink unicorn that exist in your bedroom ( yes invisible and pink at the same time, you're not allowed to ask ), and that the invisible pink unicorn knows what you're doing.. and will jump on you one day and beat you with the powerful unicorn if you do not believe in what I'm saying.. and of course burn you forever.. or you could believe what i say and do as I tell you to do and you'll go to heaven.. good boy.. if I believe in this, do you think i'm stupid?
i would say crazy, as this is doctrin in you religion is positivly islamic, and i know that isnt good
If you believe in god. no I don't think you're stupid. but i sure don't think you're smart either.
Your belief came out as a result to the intensive brainwash you had when you were young.. or out of personal weakness that you want a powerful unnatural force to help you with your life.. not only that, this brainwash talks about hell and iternal punishment so that you'll not dare to think about it.. since if you do, you'll lose faith.. and you'll discover the truth. |
your off the mark in your analogy, wich does not match fundimental parts of my beliefe, as such it is a false similitude.
as far as the rest. i have spent much of my life questioning my faith. i believe the Christian God Welcomes questions, like any good teacher does. in my study of God, i have found compelling evidence, in circumstance, example, and observation. that leads me to believe in the Omniscient Creator. as far as being weak? isn't it the beginning of wisdom to recognize ones limits? ones weaknesses? i tried for years to overcome my own weakness (sin) and it was like flapping my arms, trying to fly, i found myself always going back to my sin. now that i have had the humility to admit that i cant do it on my own, and asked help from God, i find I can overcome my weakness. someone who has a serious infection needs a doctor (in my case antibiotics were not working, as such, i needed a surgeon to cut the infected cyst out of my lung) i know from experience also, that a man who is living with sin, needs a Forgiving God, willing to provide the strength to stop sinning. this had been my REALITY.
ps, i have an above average IQ, bt not unusualy so, and i dont clame to be the smartest guy around, on the other hand, i have found Wisdome that works well for my life. [/color]
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THHuxley_redux
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| 4everChristian wrote: |
| best for you to ignore the seeming antisemitism, because it is not anti semitism, its a reference to there particular idiocy (that is self proclaimed secularists, and Jews spouting propaganda for islamofachist muslems who would gladly cut off there heads as soon as they are trough using them) |
No.... I will not ignore racism or bigotry, especially when spouted with a religious motivation. I long ago decided that this was a stand I would take... never to allow offensive racist language to pass without comment. The antisemitism that drips from your writing is offensive.
It is sad to see you still embracing an attitude that has forever tarred Christianity as a source of terror and atrocity.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| ahh, the trap is sprung!, now we get to see which one of us Got caught in it. |
Yes... lets.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| to explain, this is the second time i have read your question, (the first was asked of someone else, in another thread... tell me do you save this question for Christians only, or is this an equal opportunity inquisition? |
It is an equal opportunity inquisition.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| its a bit amusing to me that you tell me you can no longer trust me, and question my ability to tell the truth... for telling you the truth of my life, rather than a convenient lie that might mollify any criticism. |
I have no basis for knowing whether anything you have told me is the truth or not. After all, the presumption of truthfullness which was initially afforded you (as is afforded all newly encountered people) was rather neatly tossed back by your admission that you are happy with falsehood if it works for you.
I do not question your ability to tell the truth. Everyone is so able. I question your committmentto tell the truth given your expressed consideration that it's really not all that important.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| but that being said, you obviously missed the point of my answerer. so let me do a "cost benefit analysis" on your questing in relation to the effect it would have on the economy of my life. |
A cost benefit analysis on the truth? Please... you are starting to sound even more like Joseph Goebells than when you were whining about the Jews.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
my answerer,
in the debit column, i pay out "your" truth (call it the God fairy tale theory) years of shame, pain and regret. and seemingly, your respect.
in the benefit column, i am paid, my marriage, my children, possibly my life, purpose, significance, and joy. a fellowship with believers, who support, and encourage each other. and a perfectly loving God as a heavenly father. like i say (in the light green above, that paragraph you may have read out of context, this assessment is based on my experience, observations of others, and study. (in short, i know where my life is now, and where it was headed without repentance, and change)
so, in summation. the conclusion, if i am right about God, after having a blessed life, i can dye secure in the promise of an eternity with the body of believers, including some of my own family. if i am wrong about God, i get the blessed life, die and rot, in my last moments secure in the knowledge that my family grieves for me, not because of what i wasn't, and could have been, put for what i am. (in the case of my fathers dad, i grieve for him in the later sense, my father, well i am blessed in that i will Grieve for him in the former sence) |
Good for you. Your further explanation is little more than the restatement that you do not really care what the truth is, and it doesn't matter to you one way or the other. I pretty much understood that from your last post.
So... why are you bothering us again?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| nope, cant tell you what he looked haven't seen him, maybe you can google a few Michaelangelo paintings and get an idea as to what he looks like, but I'm not sure Michelangelo saw him either. but as to God giving me any scripture, yup he gave me lots. so glad to oblige you. |
Blah... blah.... blah..... blah...
If God did not personally hand you that scripture, then you are wrong to be so certain he gave you anything. Maybe your wife handed it to you, or maybe your pastor did, or maybe a bookseller at Barnes and Noble did... but none of those folks appear to be God.
As to quoting scripture to me... I would find more value in an actual work of non-fiction.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i don't take drugs, (well, nothing without a prescription that is, and nothing that has hallucinogenic side effects) i don't drink, i don't do hypnotism, self hypnotism, or any new age "altered states of consciousness" techniques (i lead a boring life i guess) maybe it was lack of oxygen due to an Asama attack? only i don't remember having one that day, and that i would remember, as i have only had three attacks in my life. so whats left, maybe you can tell me. regardless, i know what started me on the path to the good life, (what i saw) so where it came from is academic to me |
Yet another example of your cavalier attitude towards truth. It may be "academic" to you, but it also therefore deserves no serious consideration by anyone else of its divine origin.
You asked (to begin this thread) if you were an idiot for believing what you believe. I responsed by pointing out that idiocy is more a reflection on how one thinks than on what one believes.
You are beginning to make a very strong case for yourself.
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japan257
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 3217
Location: The Good Ole US of A
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| FreePower wrote: |
Hello 4everChristian
I found your story to be very compelling, in some ways I relate to it myself. To the world your faith may seem stupid and people might ridicule you for it, but they did it to Christ first and so we can expect no less. As for the majority of people they do not have the inner understanding we have, our faith might seem crazy and ludicrous, but for us it makes perfect sense. It is something only God can show and change within a person. One thing I've learned is that no matter how much evidence, experiences you try to show a person, if they are not willing to listen then you are just throwing pearls to swine.
Take Care
FreePower |
Ah yes the mysterious 'inner understanding'. What is 'understanding'? Is it understanding you know or that you do not?:
| Quote: |
| 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. |
What is really so amazing about the above?
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4everChristian
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: am i stupid to believe in Jehovah, God |
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| THHuxley_redux wrote: |
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| best for you to ignore the seeming antisemitism, because it is not anti semitism, its a reference to there particular idiocy (that is self proclaimed secularists, and Jews spouting propaganda for islamofachist muslems who would gladly cut off there heads as soon as they are trough using them) |
No.... I will not ignore racism or bigotry, especially when spouted with a religious motivation. I long ago decided that this was a stand I would take... never to allow offensive racist language to pass without comment. The antisemitism that drips from your writing is offensive.
It is sad to see you still embracing an attitude that has forever tarred Christianity as a source of terror and atrocity.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| ahh, the trap is sprung!, now we get to see which one of us Got caught in it. |
Yes... lets.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| to explain, this is the second time i have read your question, (the first was asked of someone else, in another thread... tell me do you save this question for Christians only, or is this an equal opportunity inquisition? |
It is an equal opportunity inquisition.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| its a bit amusing to me that you tell me you can no longer trust me, and question my ability to tell the truth... for telling you the truth of my life, rather than a convenient lie that might mollify any criticism. |
I have no basis for knowing whether anything you have told me is the truth or not. After all, the presumption of truthfullness which was initially afforded you (as is afforded all newly encountered people) was rather neatly tossed back by your admission that you are happy with falsehood if it works for you.
I do not question your ability to tell the truth. Everyone is so able. I question your committmentto tell the truth given your expressed consideration that it's really not all that important.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| but that being said, you obviously missed the point of my answerer. so let me do a "cost benefit analysis" on your questing in relation to the effect it would have on the economy of my life. |
A cost benefit analysis on the truth? Please... you are starting to sound even more like Joseph Goebells than when you were whining about the Jews.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
my answerer,
in the debit column, i pay out "your" truth (call it the God fairy tale theory) years of shame, pain and regret. and seemingly, your respect.
in the benefit column, i am paid, my marriage, my children, possibly my life, purpose, significance, and joy. a fellowship with believers, who support, and encourage each other. and a perfectly loving God as a heavenly father. like i say (in the light green above, that paragraph you may have read out of context, this assessment is based on my experience, observations of others, and study. (in short, i know where my life is now, and where it was headed without repentance, and change)
so, in summation. the conclusion, if i am right about God, after having a blessed life, i can dye secure in the promise of an eternity with the body of believers, including some of my own family. if i am wrong about God, i get the blessed life, die and rot, in my last moments secure in the knowledge that my family grieves for me, not because of what i wasn't, and could have been, put for what i am. (in the case of my fathers dad, i grieve for him in the later sense, my father, well i am blessed in that i will Grieve for him in the former sence) |
Good for you. Your further explanation is little more than the restatement that you do not really care what the truth is, and it doesn't matter to you one way or the other. I pretty much understood that from your last post.
So... why are you bothering us again?
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| nope, cant tell you what he looked haven't seen him, maybe you can google a few Michaelangelo paintings and get an idea as to what he looks like, but I'm not sure Michelangelo saw him either. but as to God giving me any scripture, yup he gave me lots. so glad to oblige you. |
Blah... blah.... blah..... blah...
If God did not personally hand you that scripture, then you are wrong to be so certain he gave you anything. Maybe your wife handed it to you, or maybe your pastor did, or maybe a bookseller at Barnes and Noble did... but none of those folks appear to be God.
As to quoting scripture to me... I would find more value in an actual work of non-fiction.
| 4everChristian wrote: |
| i don't take drugs, (well, nothing without a prescription that is, and nothing that has hallucinogenic side effects) i don't drink, i don't do hypnotism, self hypnotism, or any new age "altered states of consciousness" techniques (i lead a boring life i guess) maybe it was lack of oxygen due to an Asama attack? only i don't remember having one that day, and that i would remember, as i have only had three attacks in my life. so whats left, maybe you can tell me. regardless, i know what started me on the path to the good life, (what i saw) so where it came from is academic to me |
Yet another example of your cavalier attitude towards truth. It may be "academic" to you, but it also therefore deserves no serious consideration by anyone else of its divine origin.
You asked (to begin this thread) if you were an idiot for believing what you believe. I responsed by pointing out that idiocy is more a reflection on how one thinks than on what one believes.
You are beginning to make a very strong case for yourself. |
I pray you can pardon me for being harsh here,
the nature of your character is much reveled by your replies to my words. (and the totality of posts and replies you make on this site.)
you have used slander, ad-homonym attacks, reading out of context as a tactic to set a foundation for personal attack, and, and using questions as a tactic to set up lines of personal attacks. in essence engaging in rhetorical bullying.
overall, in engaging in this you have lowered the level of discourse on this forum, tell me, do you keep score by the people who "flee" from you, or is it just the number of threads you shut down?
about your reveled character. i have to wonder... do you engage in this activity in public as well, that is the essence of a boor
do you only do so under an assumed title, in anonymity? (like here on line) well, that looks like the essence of a coward.
do you do so in an attempt to gain some power over others you consider weaker than yourself, that is the essence of a bully
were i you, i would seriously consider not reply to any more of my posts, unless you can do so politely, and with and interest of the acquisition, or passing on of knowledge.
for with every slander, ad homonym attack, or incident of rhetorical bullying, you only stain your own character more.
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