|
Attention: Year 2009 is here
Wishing a very Happy New Year to all members of FFI. Our new and improved site is ready. To visit main site, click at faithfreedom.org and to visit our new forum, click at forum09.faithfreedom.org and register again. Do not worry about your old forum posts and PM, everything is saved here till 31st December, 2008 for future references.
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
infidel_01
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1443
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Its time to teach you your own HOLY QURAN, dear farid,
Let see what your allah told in these verses:
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)
And He completed them seven heavens in two days
and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded... (41:12)
We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. (37:6)
So your all-knowing allah is talking about lowest heaven which he adorned with stars, which is just above the earth.
_________________
It is NOT IMMORAL for muslims to have non-muslims as slaves and sex slaves; But it is definitely IMMORAL for non-Muslims to own Muslim slaves -- Allah Diya, MTD & NAV;
WHY? None could answer |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
termina
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 58
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Salam, Farid.
| Quote: |
Shayatin can be for the devils among jinns or mankind. It is not exclusive for jinns or satan. Muhammad Asad, has translated as astrologers, because the stars are supposed to be a futile guess. Who else would you say it is talking about? |
Wow! Could you explain how stars (metaphorically or literally) 'rajm' astrologers to me ? ' '
And the "devils" mentionned in the verses that infidel_01 has just quoted are the "astrologers" as well ?
According to hadith, jinns listen to angels in order to inspire fortune-tellers. So, in this context, i think it could be the Shayatin among Jinns.
| Quote: |
| You say Muhammad Asad lies. Show me one instance where he has. |
See his tafseer of the verses on mountains function.
| Quote: |
Farid Wrote:
Why are you even talking about earth? The Quran says they try to steal a hearing from heaven, not earth. So why are you even talking about meteors close to earth? This has nothing to do with it.
|
A meteor is, according to its definition, a visible event that occurs when a meteoroid or asteroid enters atmosphere. And doesn't this atmosphere belong to Earth ?
| Quote: |
| Secondly, talking about the sun makes no difference either. What does the sun have to do with it. I told you it is talking about stealing a hearing from heaven. Who knows how far that is. |
I made this example with the Sun in order to show you how human's ignorance makes superstitions.
| Quote: |
Say I go to a village, and I see a river that is green in color. I tell them that in america, there are blue rivers. Then all of a sudden a guy comes and says, "you are a liar, look at this river, see it is green, so how can it be blue". You see, I was not even talking about that river, I was talking about river hundred of miles away.
|
 Okay...
| Quote: |
| Similarily, it is no use to even talk about this solar system to debunk this, or even this galaxy or who knows, it may not even be in this universe. |
...the verses mentions that devils and jinns try to listen to angels
in the heaven.
Yes! But, the Quran is more precise, here. This heaven which mentionned is the heaven OF THIS WORLD.
This heaven is "adorned" by lamps and protected.
If the heaven of this World isn't the atmosphere, or the visible sky from the Earth; so, what may it be ? An alternative Universe?
Wasalam. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Salam,
Infidel_01 Wrote:
| Quote: |
| Its time to teach you your own HOLY QURAN, dear farid, |
Farid Wrote:
Infidil, please read my posts clearly. I did not ask you if the lowest heaven has stars. I asked you, which heaven do the jinns steal a hearing from?
Termina Wrote:
| Quote: |
| Wow! Could you explain how stars (metaphorically or literally) 'rajm' astrologers to me ? |
Farid Wrote:
Did you not read my first post? I will quote Muhammad Asad,
| Quote: |
| As regards the term rajm (pl. rujum), which literally denotes the "throwing [of something] like a stone" - i.e., at random - it is often used metaphorically in the sense of "speaking conjecturally" or "making [something] the object of guesswork" (Jawhari, Raghib - the latter connecting this metaphor explicitly with the above verse -, Lisan al-‘Arab, Qamus, Taj al-'Arus, etc.). |
Termina Wrote:
| Quote: |
| According to hadith, jinns listen to angels in order to inspire fortune-tellers. So, in this context, i think it could be the Shayatin among Jinns. |
Farid Wrote:
How do you know it is talking about this verse?
Termina Wrote:
| Quote: |
| A meteor is, according to its definition, a visible event that occurs when a meteoroid or asteroid enters atmosphere. And doesn't this atmosphere belong to Earth ? |
Farid Wrote:
If you think meteors are only in earth or close to, then you need to attend science class over. It does not matter what is the definition of meteors. There can be many things as fiery flame, to translate it strictly as meteors is not a good method.
So far, I still have not seen this "error". Wow, where is this error?
Thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
termina
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 58
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| As regards the term rajm (pl. rujum), which literally denotes the "throwing [of something] like a stone" - i.e., at random - it is often used metaphorically in the sense of "speaking conjecturally" or "making [something] the object of guesswork" (Jawhari, Raghib - the latter connecting this metaphor explicitly with the above verse -, Lisan al-‘Arab, Qamus, Taj al-'Arus, etc.). |
Ok!
| Quote: |
| How do you know it is talking about this verse? |
Oh! It depens on how you interpret the verse. See the tafsir of Ibn Kathir of this verse.
| Quote: |
If you think meteors are only in earth or close to, then you need to attend science class over. It does not matter what is the definition of meteors. There can be many things as fiery flame, to translate it strictly as meteors is not a good method.
So far, I still have not seen this "error". Wow, where is this error? |
Meteors are really in Earth's atmosphere, otherwise they are called asteroids or meteoroids. Learn science before saying that.
A fiery flame in the sky may be interpreted as a meteor.
I remember a hadith quoted by Ibn Kathir in the context of the revelation of the surat Al Jinn:
| Quote: |
(And evil is not attributed to You (Allah).) It used to be that shooting stars (meteors) occurred before this, however it did not happen much, rather only occasionally. As was reported in the Hadith of Ibn `Abbas when he said, "While we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah a shooting star flashed in the sky. So the Prophet said,
(What did you all used to say about this) We replied, "We used to say that a great person has been born and a great person has died.'' The Prophet said,
(This is not so, rather whenever Allah decrees a matter in the heaven...)'' and then he went on to narrate the rest of the Hadith which we have already mentioned in its entirety in Surah Saba'. This is what caused them to seek the reason for this occurrence. So they set out searching in the east and the west. Then they found the Messenger of Allah reciting (the Qur'an) while leading his Companions in prayer. Thus, they knew that this Qur'an was the reason for the sky being guarded. Therefore, some among them believed in it and the others became more rebellious in their transgression. A discussion of this has preceded in a Hadith of Ibn `Abbas concerning Allah's statement in Surat Al-Ahqaf,
(And (remember) when We sent towards you (Muhammad) a group of the Jinn (quietly) listening to the Qur'an.) (46:29) There is no doubt that when so many shooting stars began appearing in the sky, it horrified humans and Jinns alike. They were very disturbed and alarmed by it. They thought that it was the destruction of the world. As-Suddi said, "The sky was never guarded except if there was a Prophet in the earth or the religion of Allah was victorious and dominant in the earth.'' So the devils before the time of Muhammad had taken sitting stations for themselves in the heaven of this world and they would listen to the matters that occurred in the heaven. But when Allah sent Muhammad as a Prophet and Messenger, they were suddenly pelted one night (with the flaming, shooting stars). So the people of Ta'if were frightened because of this and they began to say, `The dwellers of the sky have been destroyed.' This was because they saw the severe fires in the sky and the shooting flames. They began freeing their servants and abandoning their luxuries. So `Abd Yalayl bin `Amr bin `Umayr said to them and he was referred to for judgement among them "Woe to you O people of Ta'if! Hold on to your wealth and look at these guiding stars in the sky.If you see them remaining in their place, then the dwellers of the sky have not been destroyed, rather this has happened because of Ibn Abi Kabshah (-- meaning Muhammad ). And if you look and see that you can no longer see these stars, then verily the dwellers of the sky have been destroyed.'' So, they looked and saw that the stars still remained, and thus, they kept their wealth. The devils also were frightened during that night. They went to Iblis and informed him of what happened to them. So he (Iblis) said, "Bring me a handful of dirt from every land so that I may smell it.'' So they brought it and he smelled it and said, "It is your friend in Makkah.'' Then he sent a group of seven Jinns to Makkah, and they found the Prophet of Allah standing in prayer in Al-Masjid Al-Haram while reciting the Qur'an. They drew near to him eager to hear the Qur'an, until their chests almost pressed against him. Then they accepted Islam and Allah revealed their matter to His Messenger . We have mentioned this chapter in its entirety in the first section of the Kitab As-Sirah with lengthy discussion. Allah knows best and unto Him is all praise and blessings. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Salam,.
Termina Wrote:
| Quote: |
Meteors are really in Earth's atmosphere, otherwise they are called asteroids or meteoroids. Learn science before saying that.
A fiery flame in the sky may be interpreted as a meteor.
I remember a hadith quoted by Ibn Kathir in the context of the revelation of the surat Al Jinn: |
Farid Wrote:
I asked you how do you know it is talking about the verse we were talking about. You did not find it. You just quoted something I already knew. You have to be aware, that Ibn Khatir is not treated like Bukhari, please check the authencity. Secondly, where are the words of Muhammad(pbuh)? If it is somebody else's word, then it can be an opinion.
There are of course different intrepretations, and Allah knows which is the right one.
Thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
infidel_01
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1443
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Infidel_01 Wrote:
Its time to teach you your own HOLY QURAN, dear farid,
Let see what your allah told in these verses:
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)
And He completed them seven heavens in two days
and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded... (41:12)
We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. (37:6)
So your all-knowing allah is talking about lowest heaven which he adorned with stars, which is just above the earth.
|
Farid Wrote:
Infidil, please read my posts clearly. I did not ask you if the lowest heaven has stars. I asked you, which heaven do the jinns steal a hearing from? |
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 432
Narrated 'Aisha:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The angels descend, the clouds and mention this or that matter decreed in the Heaven. The devils listen stealthily to such a matter, come down to inspire the soothsayers with it, and the latter would add to it one-hundred lies of their own."
Is it clear now
[/quote]
_________________
It is NOT IMMORAL for muslims to have non-muslims as slaves and sex slaves; But it is definitely IMMORAL for non-Muslims to own Muslim slaves -- Allah Diya, MTD & NAV;
WHY? None could answer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Salam,
infidel_01 Wrote:
| Quote: |
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 432
Narrated 'Aisha:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The angels descend, the clouds and mention this or that matter decreed in the Heaven. The devils listen stealthily to such a matter, come down to inspire the soothsayers with it, and the latter would add to it one-hundred lies of their own."
Is it clear now |
Farid Wrote:
So I guess I know my Quran? Anyways. My question was that the heaven they try to steal from might not be so close. You quote this hadith. But this hadith does not prove that. Look at it carefully, there is no mention of fiery flame and it says that they "The angels descend", from where? the heaven, right? Because they talk about matter decreed in heaven. So you can clearly see the differentiation between clouds and heaven. and thus this does not prove that the clouds are this heaven or that the heaven the jinns try to steal from is near by.
Thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
infidel_01
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1443
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Farid,
You asked for MO's words so I provided the hadith. MO thought that these 7 heavens are just above the earth and lowest heaven has stars in it. So those 7 heavens can't be too far as you claimed.
The following verses prove that:
067.003
YUSUFALI: He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?
067.004
YUSUFALI: Again turn thy vision a second time: (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out.
067.005
YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
If the 7 heavens are far far enough, how could possible one can see them? It is only possible when they are close enough to the earth. However, can you see the those 7 heavens as your allah said you can?
Moreover, quran 67:5 says that he has adorned the lowest heaven (MIND IT THE LOWEST) with lamps, and THESE LAMPS are made missiles to drive away evil ones (Jinns). SO clearly quran is talking about the LOWEST HEAVEN which has LAMPS(Stars), [which is wrong BTW], and THE SAME LAMPS are made to drive away JINNS. Even if it is the farthest heaven(7th heaven), it is just above earth and not any imaginary far far away heaven, dear farid.
_________________
It is NOT IMMORAL for muslims to have non-muslims as slaves and sex slaves; But it is definitely IMMORAL for non-Muslims to own Muslim slaves -- Allah Diya, MTD & NAV;
WHY? None could answer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Salam,
infidel_01 Wrote:
| Quote: |
You asked for MO's words so I provided the hadith. MO thought that these 7 heavens are just above the earth and lowest heaven has stars in it. So those 7 heavens can't be too far as you claimed. |
Farid Wrote:
You claim that the heavens cant be too far because they are one above the other? How does that prove it. I never said that they are not above the other. I just said, how do you know which heaven the jinns try to steal a hearing from? Secondly, samaa translated as seven is synonomous with many. So there can be thousands of heavens one above the other, on of them can be billions in lenght.
67:3 of the Quran does not mean that you can see the seven heavens. It just says to turn thy vision, it can mean to the sky. Even if you can see it, it still does not mean that it is close. There might be a invisible boundry between them. For example, we can see the stars, it does not mean it is near by. If the heaven with the stars is the closest, then think about the last one or even the second one? Wow, that is probably quite of distance.
Infidel_01 Wrote:
| Quote: |
| Moreover, quran 67:5 says that he has adorned the lowest heaven (MIND IT THE LOWEST) with lamps, and THESE LAMPS are made missiles to drive away evil ones (Jinns). SO clearly quran is talking about the LOWEST HEAVEN which has LAMPS(Stars), |
Farid Wrote:
It seems that you are quite late in this debate. This verse has been discussed already. Let me quote Muhammad Asad's translation.
| Quote: |
| 67:5 And, indeed, We have adorned the skies nearest to the earth with lights, [4] and have made them the object of futile guesses for the evil ones [from among men]: [5] and for them have We readied suffering through a blazing flame – |
Then he comments:
| Quote: |
| For the wider meaning of shayatin - a term which in this context points specifically to "the satans from among mankind, that is, the astrologers" (Baydawi) - see surah 15, note 16. As regards the term rajm (pl. rujum), which literally denotes the "throwing [of something] like a stone" - i.e., at random - it is often used metaphorically in the sense of "speaking conjecturally" or "making [something] the object of guesswork" (Jawhari, Raghib - the latter connecting this metaphor explicitly with the above verse -, Lisan al-‘Arab, Qamus, Taj al-'Arus, etc.). Cf. also 37:6-10.(Quran Ref: 67:5 ) |
Thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
