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Emmanuel
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 661
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 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you don't |
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Narrated Jundab bin Abdullah:Allah's apostle said, Recite ( and study ) the Quran as long as your hearts are in agreement as to its meanings,but if you have differences as regards its meaning, stop reading it then.''
Sahih AL-Bukhari. Vol. 9, Book # 92, Number 466, 476.
I the Logic = I studied the Quran and found it illogical and I did not agree to its stupid meaning. Because, the earth is not FLAT,( 2:22,144,150. 13:3. 15:19. 20:53. 39:5. 43:10. 50:6-7. 51:48. 71:19. 78:6. 79:27-30. 88:20. 91:5-6.Read this verse and who is speaking here, 112:1 ?
Last edited by Emmanuel on Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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S.A.M
Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Emmanuel wrote: |
Narrated Jundab bin Abdullah:Allah's apostle said, Recite ( and study ) the Quran as long as your hearts are in agreement as to its meanings,but if you have differences as regards its meaning, stop reading it then.''
Sahih AL-Bukhari. Vol. 9, Book # 92, Number 466, 476.
I the Logic = I studied the Quran and found it illogical and I did not agree to its stupid meanind. Because, the earth is not FLAT,( 2:22,144,150. 13:3. 15:19. 20:53. 39:5. 43:10. 50:6-7. 51:48. 71:19. 78:6. 79:27-30. 88:20. 91:5-6.Read this verse and who is speaking here, 112:1 ? |
The Qur'an has an outer meaning and an inner meaning.
Allah sent down the Qur'an in ten successive layers of inner meaning. Each inner meaning is more useful and more profitable than the one before, because it is a marrow [mukhkh]. |
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sum
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hello S.A.M.
Your quote -
The Qur'an has an outer meaning and an inner meaning.
Allah sent down the Qur'an in ten successive layers of inner meaning. Each inner meaning is more useful and more profitable than the one before, because it is a marrow [mukhkh].
What utter rubbish.
sum |
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Lincoln
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Emmanuel wrote: |
Narrated Jundab bin Abdullah:Allah's apostle said, Recite ( and study ) the Quran as long as your hearts are in agreement as to its meanings,but if you have differences as regards its meaning, stop reading it then.''
Sahih AL-Bukhari. Vol. 9, Book # 92, Number 466, 476.
I the Logic = I studied the Quran and found it illogical and I did not agree to its stupid meaning. Because, the earth is not FLAT,( 2:22,144,150. 13:3. 15:19. 20:53. 39:5. 43:10. 50:6-7. 51:48. 71:19. 78:6. 79:27-30. 88:20. 91:5-6.Read this verse and who is speaking here, 112:1 ? |
Hello Emmanuel! Emmanuel Petit was one of my favorite player in the France football team in 1998 world cup. You have a part of his name. Cheers.
Now, my Hadith believing friend, congratulation!
Now, let me have few words on you post:-
1. The Glorious Quran is revealed for eternity. You must have known this as you blog in this site(I suppose).
Something that is revealed for eternity may not be in some part is very lucid to a particular generation, but it may be well understood by the next generation. This is really a wonderful fact.
Note:- The Glorious Quran doesnt talk about the shape of the Earth. Rather we deem that its talking about the surface of the earth.
Thanks.
_________________
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17
Women are liars, corrupt, greedy, and unvirtuous. (Manu II 1)  |
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Lincoln wrote: |
| 1. The Glorious Quran is revealed for eternity. |
Great piece of....  Thank you Lincoln...
So, when you find the command "kill infidels wherever you find them" in Quran you must be thinking of your holy book's sempiternal relevance.
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Something that is revealed for eternity may not be in some part is very lucid to a particular generation, but it may be well understood by the next generation. This is really a wonderful fact. |
Really? Huh... I never thought you would come up with this moon in your hands..!!!
Quran was not very lucid for Muhammad because he belonged to a past generation. Or at least some parts of it was not made clear to him though he was assigned the glorious prophethood. And still many parts are not very lucid in it for us because we are not capable of understanding them.., Better leave those to generations to come as they are meant for them.
But.. but.. if that is the case, why did god say some parts of Quran are clear and some parts are not? Did he forget the fact those unclear parts will be decoded by a generation (perhaps hundreds of thousands of years from hereon)?
Regards
KhaliL
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Lincoln
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
Thank you Lincoln... |
You are welcome all the way to your that spotted dotted dots.
| Quote: |
| So, when you find the command "kill infidels wherever you find them" in Quran you must be thinking of your holy book's sempiternal relevance. |
I dont know why I admire people who claim to be apostates!The reason I deem that their unique capability to present Quranic statement in a total different way. Bravo Haik Monsieur.
Dear Haik Monsieur, Kill the infidels wherever you find them. The arrogance of knowledge is that it wants to prove facts are fallible. When Quran says that fight them who fights you and kill them. You find the very suitable except "kill them". I really believe that everyone has his or her own way of thinking that leads them to their ultimate understanding! But there is commonsense that allow us to understand what forwards as well as backwards.
My ex-muslim friend, why do you forget those (Non-Muslims fighters/killer who kill and fight Muslims to persecute Muslims and to oppress Muslims are targeted in Quran. Later on- we see that Quran urges its followers to escort their enemy to safe place if the enemy wants to go away.
| Quote: |
| But.. but.. if that is the case, why did god say some parts of Quran are clear and some parts are not? Did he forget the fact those unclear parts will be decoded by a generation (perhaps hundreds of thousands of years from hereon)? |
Congratulations. You are having very right thought. You can be great scholar. Imam Ghazali initially was so much frustrated debating with atheists that he had turned to atheism for some time. But in the end, he proceeded to know the truth very well and as you know that he became one of the great scholars of Islam.
Now, The Glorious Quran informs us about everything that is needed to lead a perfect religious life excluding the verses that might have some meaning that we still may not understand very well or we may understand( because none of us clearly can say that we are right). Thatswhy there is room for speculation.
But.. But. For the sake of argument if it is taken as granted that some verses of the Quran arent understood properly, then my brother your pointed thought is near to the original thought.
Future is the endless horizon to give everyone hope(Even to Ali Sina)..
Take care.[/quote]
_________________
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17
Women are liars, corrupt, greedy, and unvirtuous. (Manu II 1) |
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Lincoln wrote: |
| You are welcome all the way to your that spotted dotted dots. |
That is my style of writing. There is nothing sinister. 
| Lincoln wrote: |
| I dont know why I admire people who claim to be apostates!The reason I deem that their unique capability to present Quranic statement in a total different way. Bravo Haik Monsieur. |
Merci Lincoln, but I don't seek admiration. When you accuse us of presenting your book in a totally different way, I assume the way which embarrasses you..?? Facts are not comfortable for a Muslim. I can testify it because I was there once where you sit now.
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Dear Haik Monsieur, Kill the infidels wherever you find them. The arrogance of knowledge is that it wants to prove facts are fallible. When Quran says that fight them who fights you and kill them. You find the very suitable except "kill them". I really believe that everyone has his or her own way of thinking that leads them to their ultimate understanding! But there is commonsense that allow us to understand what forwards as well as backwards. |
Glad you bolded them so that I don't want to bother. Now,
What about reading your book? The verses I mentioned does not state "Fight them who fights you" but they mean literally "Kill them wherever you find them." If that was meant for self defence, what thwarted Allah from saying "Fight only in self defence?"
| Lincoln wrote: |
| My ex-muslim friend, why do you forget those (Non-Muslims fighters/killer who kill and fight Muslims to persecute Muslims and to oppress Muslims are targeted in Quran.. |
It is not a matter of forgetfulness. I know what those verses mean. What makes you believe Quran targets oppressors? After all the command is there in your book to fight until "polytheism - disbelief" is no more; I can quote your authentic Mufassirs if you insist.
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Later on- we see that Quran urges its followers to escort their enemy to safe place if the enemy wants to go away. |
Oh.. really? Let me see that part in Quran. Would you mind bringing some relevant materials from your book in this regard?
PS: I have an article in the frontpage on the ultimate message of Quran. Check under the pen name Khalil Fariel. (only if you don't mind)
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Congratulations. You are having very right thought. You can be great scholar. Imam Ghazali initially was so much frustrated debating with atheists that he had turned to atheism for some time. But in the end, he proceeded to know the truth very well and as you know that he became one of the great scholars of Islam. |
It can go either way Lincoln. Al-Marri began as an Islamic scholar later disparaged your Islam. He was a great philosopher and poet.
Ghazali's creativity was very much curtailed due to his adherence to Islamic orthodoxy. The guy could have offered a lot better than "Ihya Ulum ul-din." I don't forget his contribution "Kalam cosmological argument' though it is effectively refuted in modern context.
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Now, The Glorious Quran informs us about everything that is needed to lead a perfect religious life excluding the verses that might have some meaning that we still may not understand very well or we may understand( because none of us clearly can say that we are right). Thatswhy there is room for speculation. |
But you are not even willing to leave matters for speculation. Instead you fill the gap with your god. Aren't you? If you fill all with god, then what would be there left for you to leave for logical thinking and reasoning? It is what happened to Ghazzali too. He had to dismiss Ibn Sina for the same reason though latter proved more sensible and genuine.
| Lincoln wrote: |
But.. But. For the sake of argument if it is taken as granted that some verses of the Quran arent understood properly, then my brother your pointed thought is near to the original thought.
Future is the endless horizon to give everyone hope(Even to Ali Sina)..
Take care. |
Funny indeed. I meant a joke but you added that too in yor basket..!!
Btw, off-topic and something personal. Are you from sub-continent?
Regards
KhaliL
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Lincoln
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
That is my style of writing. There is nothing sinister. |
If sinister is personified then it would proclaim it existence.
| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Later on- we see that Quran urges its followers to escort their enemy to safe place if the enemy wants to go away. |
Oh.. really? Let me see that part in Quran. Would you mind bringing some relevant materials from your book in this regard? |
"And if anyone of the Mushrikoon (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not." [The Noble Quran-009:006]
Well, Dear Haik Monsieur, look! Quran is ordering Muslims to kill the kafirs!!! Its always intoxicating to get confused and to make confused. But the Glorious Quran answers everything.
Indeed. Looks good when you acknowledge the source. but Haik Monsieur ,dont forget the truth.
Love Humanity. Preach Islam.
CYA.
_________________
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17
Women are liars, corrupt, greedy, and unvirtuous. (Manu II 1) |
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S.A.M
Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| sum wrote: |
| Hello S.A.M. What utter rubbish. |
More UTTER MISERY for you.....
"And unto you (O Muhammad) have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher/corrector over it. So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto you. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He has given you (He has made you as you are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah you will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein you differ. So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce you from some part of that which Allah has revealed unto you. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are rebellious." Al-Maidah(5):48-49 |
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sum
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hello S.A.M.
Your post -
sum wrote:
Hello S.A.M. What utter rubbish.
S.A.M.
More UTTER MISERY for you.....
"And unto you (O Muhammad) have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher/corrector over it. So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto you. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He has given you (He has made you as you are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah you will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein you differ. So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce you from some part of that which Allah has revealed unto you. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are rebellious." Al-Maidah(5):48-49
I can find no logic or sense in what you post. Would you please explain to us the point that you are making?
sum |
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Lincoln wrote: |
| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
That is my style of writing. There is nothing sinister. |
If sinister is personified then it would proclaim it existence.
| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Later on- we see that Quran urges its followers to escort their enemy to safe place if the enemy wants to go away. |
Oh.. really? Let me see that part in Quran. Would you mind bringing some relevant materials from your book in this regard? |
"And if anyone of the Mushrikoon (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not." [The Noble Quran-009:006] |
I missed this one from Lincoln somehow. Thank you Lincoln for reminding of this,
Now, I would ask you to read your book in context. Do not cherry pick Lincoln, This verse comes after the “Kill them wherever you find them” verse.
So, if by chance polytheists put their knees down to Muslims and seeking asylum, Muhammad grants them protection on a prerequisite, they will hear the word of Allah and eventually become Muslims. It is how Ibn Kathir, Jalalain, Ibn Abbas, Razi and most of Mufassirs (quran interpreters) explained this verse. Granting asylum and protecting them do not make the verse look better when there is this precondition remains in it dear Lincoln. Try some other Meccan verses which are relatively nonviolent if you want to make a case.
Regards
KhalIL
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Lincoln
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
That is my style of writing. There is nothing sinister. |
If sinister is personified then it would proclaim it existence.
| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
| Lincoln wrote: |
| Later on- we see that Quran urges its followers to escort their enemy to safe place if the enemy wants to go away. |
Oh.. really? Let me see that part in Quran. Would you mind bringing some relevant materials from your book in this regard? |
"And if anyone of the Mushrikoon (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not." [The Noble Quran-009:006] |
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| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
Thank you Lincoln for reminding of this, |
You will always be welcomed by me!
| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
| Now, I would ask you to read your book in context. Do not cherry pick Lincoln, This verse comes after the “Kill them wherever you find them” verse. |
Wait! My friend, Putting responsibility on to someone's else shoulder is not always welcomed. Who cherry picked my dear?.If you kindly read your previous post stating Quran orders killing non-believers.
Buddy , dont blame me of cherry picking. This is what you wrote couple of post earlier.
| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
| So, when you find the command "kill infidels wherever you find them" in Quran you must be thinking of your holy book's sempiternal relevance. |
Now, you know what Quran more says about infidels!
Question is:- Who Cherry picked to prove his point? Who intentionally avoided the following verse of verse 9:5 to accuse Quran?..
I guess that in one way or another everyone whoever has gone through this thread knows the answer. And you are the first one I believe.
| Quote: |
So, if by chance polytheists put their knees down to Muslims and seeking asylum, Muhammad grants them protection on a prerequisite, they will hear the word of Allah and eventually become Muslims. It is how Ibn Kathir, Jalalain, Ibn Abbas, Razi and most of Mufassirs (quran interpreters) explained this verse. Granting asylum and protecting them do not make the verse look better when there is this precondition remains in it dear Lincoln. Try some other Meccan verses which are relatively nonviolent if you want to make a case.
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Intelligent!lame tactics? ILT!
You wanted a proof on behalf of my claim that Quran states/orders Muslims to escort the disbelievers even in war if they ask or seek that. You are provided with the proof. Dont change business far too often!Its not an advise but its a dictum!
Take care.
_________________
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17
Women are liars, corrupt, greedy, and unvirtuous. (Manu II 1) |
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Mersk
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 5764
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| Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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And for eternity we will just kill Muslims for fighting out religions.
The Quran is the source of our inspiration. = Kill them wherever we find.
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MAM = Muslims acting as Muslim Affairs Ministers for Modk. HAM = Last Profit of Islam. |
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infidel_01
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1443
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| Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Love Humanity. Preach Islam. |
Joke of the day. Thanks for the laugh.
Can you show us a single verse in your crap quran which says:
"Love Infidels Unconditionally"
_________________
It is NOT IMMORAL for muslims to have non-muslims as slaves and sex slaves; But it is definitely IMMORAL for non-Muslims to own Muslim slaves -- Allah Diya, MTD & NAV;
WHY? None could answer  |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Muhammad said if you agree with Quran's meaning if you d |
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| S.A.M wrote: |
| Emmanuel wrote: |
Narrated Jundab bin Abdullah:Allah's apostle said, Recite ( and study ) the Quran as long as your hearts are in agreement as to its meanings,but if you have differences as regards its meaning, stop reading it then.''
Sahih AL-Bukhari. Vol. 9, Book # 92, Number 466, 476.
I the Logic = I studied the Quran and found it illogical and I did not agree to its stupid meanind. Because, the earth is not FLAT,( 2:22,144,150. 13:3. 15:19. 20:53. 39:5. 43:10. 50:6-7. 51:48. 71:19. 78:6. 79:27-30. 88:20. 91:5-6.Read this verse and who is speaking here, 112:1 ? |
The Qur'an has an outer meaning and an inner meaning. |
Why does the outer meaning display an errant notion of a flat earth? Also, what is the inner meaning of these verses?
| S.A.M wrote: |
Allah sent down the Qur'an in ten successive layers of inner meaning. Each inner meaning is more useful and more profitable than the one before, because it is a marrow [mukhkh]. |
Who said that?
_________________
Somebody get me a hairdryer |
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