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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
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 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Islam...an off shoot of catholicism |
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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in 325. As early as 320 or 321 St. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, convoked a council at Alexandria at which more than one hundred bishops from Egypt and Libya anathematized Arius. The latter continued to officiate in his church and to recruit followers. Being finally driven out, he went to Palestine and from there to Nicomedia. During this time St. Alexander published his "Epistola encyclica". Sozomen even speaks of a Council of Bithynia which addressed an encyclical to all the bishops. The emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea. Several bishops from outside the Roman Empire (e.g., from Persia) came to the Council. The choice of Nicaea was favourable to the assembling of a large number of bishops. It was easily accessible to the bishops of nearly all the provinces, but especially to those of Asia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Greece, and Thrace.
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All I'm saying is that Islam claims to 'unify' judaism and christianity. Wouldn't it be equally logical to claim that Islam is a heretical off shoot of catholicism?
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"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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It is very obvious, that islam is a christian heresy - the dumbest and most dangerous of all heresies. Thomas of Aquinas and many others noticed that.
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Ahmed the wife-beating bahgat moslem said:
"I said I will beat MY ILL CONDUCT WIFE if she insists on her ill conduct" |
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arildno
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Eeh, how can Islam be a "heresy" to some other equally false belief??? |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| arildno wrote: |
| Eeh, how can Islam be a "heresy" to some other equally false belief??? |
what does the veracity of either have to do with how they are related? Atheist logic... 
_________________
Ahmed the wife-beating bahgat moslem said:
"I said I will beat MY ILL CONDUCT WIFE if she insists on her ill conduct" |
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arildno
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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The word "heresy" is an intra-religious term.
It is unsuitable to use as an objective description of differing belief systems. |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Islam...an off shoot of catholicism |
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| Lyzandra Daria wrote: |
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in 325. As early as 320 or 321 St. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, convoked a council at Alexandria at which more than one hundred bishops from Egypt and Libya anathematized Arius. The latter continued to officiate in his church and to recruit followers. Being finally driven out, he went to Palestine and from there to Nicomedia. During this time St. Alexander published his "Epistola encyclica". Sozomen even speaks of a Council of Bithynia which addressed an encyclical to all the bishops. The emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea. Several bishops from outside the Roman Empire (e.g., from Persia) came to the Council. The choice of Nicaea was favourable to the assembling of a large number of bishops. It was easily accessible to the bishops of nearly all the provinces, but especially to those of Asia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Greece, and Thrace.
>>>
All I'm saying is that Islam claims to 'unify' judaism and christianity. Wouldn't it be equally logical to claim that Islam is a heretical off shoot of catholicism? |
>>>
I ask the question because...
http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=381
Pope Benedict XVI has responded to a letter sent to him in October by 138 Muslim scholars by inviting some of them to meet him at the Vatican.
The letter is addressed to Jordanian Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, and signed by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone. In it the Pope expresses his deep appreciation for the positive spirit which inspired the text from Muslim scholars and its call for a common commitment to promoting peace in the world.
While it is important not to ignore or down play the difference between Christians and Muslims, the Pope says “we can and therefore should look to what unites us, namely, belief in the one God, the provident Creator and universal Judge”.
Reiterating his words to representatives of Some Muslim Communities in Cologne, at the beginning of his pontificate, the pope stressed “we must not yield to the negative pressures in our midst, but must affirm the values of mutual respect, solidarity and peace. Adding there is plenty of scope for acting together in the service of fundamental moral values”.
“The common ground between the two faiths”, he says “allows us to base dialogue on respect for the dignity of every human person on the objective knowledge of the other’s religion, on the sharing of religious experience and, finally, on common commitment to promoting mutual respect and acceptance among the younger generation”.
The letter concludes with an invitation to the Jordanian Prince and to a select group of the Muslim signatories for a papal audience to encourage such initiatives.
The Pope also proposes setting up meetings between the Muslim scholars and Vatican organisations such as the Pontifical council for Inter Religious Dialogue, the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies and the Pontifical Gregorian University.
>>>
I wouldn't trust the catholics! They treat heresy very seriously.
Do I believe there will be a meeting of minds? No...emphatically no. Neither sect wants to yield power or position to the other.
Remember, Catholics entered into treaties w/ facist Franco, Hilter, Mussolini.
Note: Franco and Hitler were raised in the catholic church but found it convenient to their purposes to enter into treaties w/ the pope. Musolini was considered an aethist but also couldn't succeed w/o the catholic church.
http://www.mcn.org/e/iii/franco.htm
"It wasn't just the athiest anarchists and socialists that the Catholic Church wanted Franco to slaughter: anyone who even believed in democracy was executed"
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob37.html
Hitler's Concordat with the Catholic Church (1933)
Although Hitler was determined to undermine, if not entirely destroy, the influence of Christianity in Germany, he could hardly proceed in a provocatively confrontational manner against the two main religious denominations--Protestant and Catholic. His problem with the Catholic Church, however, derived from the allegiance both the Catholic hierarchy and the laity owed to the dictates of the Pope. And since Catholics represented some one-third of the population, Hitler perforce proceeded with caution in his ultimate goal to bring the Church to heel. Thus, the formal agreement of July 1933, the Concordat with the Vatican, was an interim step on this path--enough to lull the Church into acquiescence of the regime while leaving him the option, which he used, to step up intimidation and persecution of its members as the opportunity afforded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Treaty
The fact that Fascism was born and first established in a Catholic country, and that it began its official career in the very seat of Roman Catholicism, is neither mere coincidence nor a freak of history. It was due to various important factors of a religious, social, economic, and political nature, not the least of which was the presence and co-operation of the Vatican in this first experiment of modern Totalitarianism.
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| arildno wrote: |
| Eeh, how can Islam be a "heresy" to some other equally false belief??? |
>>>
Catholics (obviously) don't consider their 'beliefs' to be false. My point is that catholics could come to also believe, as with the other 'heresies' that went the way of the sword, that Islam is actually an off shoot of catholicism which needs to be a) eradicated or b) brought into alignment. Catholics have proved very ingeneous in accomplishing either option. Catholics turned a blind eye at ethnic clensing so long as catholics aren't being killed or threatened (hence the reference to the catholic concords w/ facists. Catholics will align w/ the worst of humankind to achieve the objectives of their cult...world domination.
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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arildno
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, Muslims regard all other religions to be heresies of original Islam, and that Mohammad brought back the pure, pristine form of it. |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| arildno wrote: |
| Well, Muslims regard all other religions to be heresies of original Islam, and that Mohammad brought back the pure, pristine form of it. |
>>>
Yet in Egypy (an original christian territory as indicated in 326 Council) it is illegal for a muslim to convert to christianity ( because it is an older religion) 
Hence...isn't Islam an off shoot of catholicism...even though catholicism wasn't even then the only cult considered to be christian...hence the need for the 'coven' of bishops to convene. 
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Islam...an off shoot of catholicism |
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| Lyzandra Daria wrote: |
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in 325. As early as 320 or 321 St. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, convoked a council at Alexandria at which more than one hundred bishops from Egypt and Libya anathematized Arius. The latter continued to officiate in his church and to recruit followers. Being finally driven out, he went to Palestine and from there to Nicomedia. During this time St. Alexander published his "Epistola encyclica". Sozomen even speaks of a Council of Bithynia which addressed an encyclical to all the bishops. The emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea. Several bishops from outside the Roman Empire (e.g., from Persia) came to the Council. The choice of Nicaea was favourable to the assembling of a large number of bishops. It was easily accessible to the bishops of nearly all the provinces, but especially to those of Asia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Greece, and Thrace.
>>>
All I'm saying is that Islam claims to 'unify' judaism and christianity. Wouldn't it be equally logical to claim that Islam is a heretical off shoot of catholicism? |
http://www.traces-cl.com/gen02/inwhat.htm
"The religious essence of Islam is based on the two heresies mentioned above (Monothelitism and Iconoclasm), seeing in man a finite form without any freedom and in God an infinite reality without any form."
"In this way, religion is reduced to a purely external, ritual relationship between the omnipotent creator and the creature without freedom, who therefore owes nothing to the creator except an act of blind devotion (without any reason): in fact, the meaning of the word “Islam” is “submission.”
>>>
I still see that Islam is basically a 'heresy' of catholicism. Catholics burn heretics don't they? Maybe not anymore, but with a little encouragement...who knows what the catholics might resort to.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5074599
"A Roman Catholic diocese in Southern California has put a former priest on trial on charges of heresy. The San Bernardino Diocese says Father Ned Reidy is leading Catholics astray with his breakaway parish near Palm Springs. While a secret diocese tribunal deliberates on a verdict, Father Reidy continues to celebrate Mass for his small but devoted congregation at the Pathfinder Community of the Risen Christ in San Bernardino, Calif.
Reidy left the Roman Catholic church in 1999 to join the Ecumenical Catholic Communion, a denomination that now boasts more than a dozen parishes nationwide. While Catholic in name, it splits with the Vatican over some fundamental church doctrines. Unlike heretics of old, Reidy does not openly rail against Roman Catholic teachings with which he disagrees. He says he just offers an alternative.
"We're involved in ministry here: women's ordination and calling men who are married and who've all their lives wanted to be priests," Reidy tells Steven Cuevas of member station KPCC. "I'm involved with priests who've left, who are just floating around. We're involved in preaching a good news that a lot of people have never heard before."
It's a message that resonates with some Catholics. Gene Philips is a regular at Pathfinder. A staunch anti-abortion Catholic, he broke away after a priest told him that as a divorced man, he could not receive communion.
"When Jesus said, 'Take this all of you and eat it. Take this all of you and drink from it,' he meant all!" Philips says. "He meant all of you!"
But in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Bernardino, Father Reidy is a heretic -- someone who goes against basic church teachings. Father Howard Lincoln, a spokesman for the San Bernardino Diocese, says the rare heresy trial is necessary to clarify Reidy's status within the church: He is no longer a Roman Catholic priest. The diocese fears that by using the word "Catholic" in his denomination, Reidy could mislead some worshippers.
"Ned Reidy made promises to his religious community and vows at his ordination, which he publicly broke with the Roman Catholic Church with the establishment of another denomination," Lincoln says.
Reidy is also charged with schism, which is defined as a failure to submit to the authority of the pope or of church leaders.
Reidy doesn't deny the charges. But he says the diocese no longer has jurisdiction over him. If found guilty, Reidy would be formally defrocked and ex-communicated from the Roman Catholic Church.
Reidy was a Roman Catholic priest in good standing for nearly 20 years in the Palm Desert area of Southern California. Tom Roberts, editor of the National Catholic Reporter, says he understands if the diocese might feel a little threatened by Reidy's breakaway denomination.
"If he's an effective minister, someone who's been high profile in the community, and he leaves and co-founds his own denomination, I can understand the bishop wanting to make a special statement about this person," Roberts says. "I also don't think Catholics are confused by these issues. I don't think they would mistake this person as a Roman Catholic cleric."
Whatever the verdict, Reidy can always appeal to the Vatican. But he says he won't. He didn't attend his heresy trial, and he says he plans to continue his ministry regardless of the verdict."
>>>
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| arildno wrote: |
The word "heresy" is an intra-religious term.
It is unsuitable to use as an objective description of differing belief systems. |
Only if you aren't catholic and/or don't want to accept the viewpoint that Islam is schismatic.
I prefer to speculate that Islam will be determined to be schismatic and the catholics will do all in their power to bring them back to the 'true' religion.
They will have a few 'minor' points to work out...but if they try real hard and pray for enlightenment...to ascertain god's true 'will' on the matter...they can resolve the petty differences.
If not...maybe it will be time to fire-up the barbie (BBQ)
(chuckles facetiously)
>>>
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra
Last edited by Lyzandra Daria on Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Islam...an off shoot of catholicism |
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>>>
I ask the question because...
http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=381
Pope Benedict XVI has responded to a letter sent to him in October by 138 Muslim scholars by inviting some of them to meet him at the Vatican.
The letter is addressed to Jordanian Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, and signed by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone. In it the Pope expresses his deep appreciation for the positive spirit which inspired the text from Muslim scholars and its call for a common commitment to promoting peace in the world.
While it is important not to ignore or down play the difference between Christians and Muslims, the Pope says “we can and therefore should look to what unites us, namely, belief in the one God, the provident Creator and universal Judge”.
Reiterating his words to representatives of Some Muslim Communities in Cologne, at the beginning of his pontificate, the pope stressed “we must not yield to the negative pressures in our midst, but must affirm the values of mutual respect, solidarity and peace. Adding there is plenty of scope for acting together in the service of fundamental moral values”.
“The common ground between the two faiths”, he says “allows us to base dialogue on respect for the dignity of every human person on the objective knowledge of the other’s religion, on the sharing of religious experience and, finally, on common commitment to promoting mutual respect and acceptance among the younger generation”.
The letter concludes with an invitation to the Jordanian Prince and to a select group of the Muslim signatories for a papal audience to encourage such initiatives.
The Pope also proposes setting up meetings between the Muslim scholars and Vatican organisations such as the Pontifical council for Inter Religious Dialogue, the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies and the Pontifical Gregorian University.
>>>
http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2008/feb/27/vatican_urges_muslims_respect_people_all_faiths.html
Vatican urges Muslims to respect people of all faiths
The Vatican has urged Muslims to respect people of all faiths and not exclude them on grounds of religion, race and other personal characteristics. "They (the Muslims) must ensure culture of peace and solidarity between different religious communities and spread a teaching which honors all human creatures," The Guardian reported yesterday, quoting Jean-Louis Cardinal Tauran as saying. Cardinal Tauran is the newly appointed President of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, the Vatican's main liaison agency with the Muslim world.
Cardinal Tauran also expressed concern about the treatment of Christians in Muslim-majority countries. Though he did not make a direct link between Islam and violence, Cardinal Tauran described it as the duty of believers to "reject, denounce and refuse every recourse to violence, which can never be motivated by religion…". Violence, especially terrorism which strikes blindly and claims countless innocent victims, is incapable of resolving conflicts and leads only to a deadly chain of destructive hatred," he was quoted as saying. It may be mentioned that relations between the Vatican and Muslims soured after Pope Benedict XVI quoted a 14th century Byzantine Emperor and triggered a wave of condemnation and violence. At least two people -- an Iraqi priest and a Somali nun -- were killed in the ensuing unrest.
>>>
See...my evil plan is working
The pope gets the Imams to come to the vatican...drugs them or somehow convinces them to partake in some harmless 'fun'...then  before you know it, the Imams are baptized!
Born again!
Christianized!
Maybe even shaved...although they might let that go...because the greek orthodox grow beards.
Their muslim congregations won't be able to believe a word they say anymore. or any less.
The Mosqes will never be the same. No more bowing...just kneeling, genuflecting once in a while and confession. Boy, won't they love the lenten season? Maybe they will be allowed to move Ramadan and fast for the full 40 days. "Yum...Ash Wednesday".
>>>
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra
Last edited by Lyzandra Daria on Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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IoshkaFutz
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3895
Location: Caput Mundistan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| arildno wrote: |
The word "heresy" is an intra-religious term.
It is unsuitable to use as an objective description of differing belief systems. |
So by your same logic the word treason cannot be used.
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</islam> Whenever you guys shout "Allah Akbar" I find myself ducking for the floor - Haik Monsieur |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Lyzandra Daria wrote: |
| arildno wrote: |
| Eeh, how can Islam be a "heresy" to some other equally false belief??? |
>>>
Catholics (obviously) don't consider their 'beliefs' to be false. My point is that catholics could come to also believe, as with the other 'heresies' that went the way of the sword, that Islam is actually an off shoot of catholicism which needs to be a) eradicated or b) brought into alignment. Catholics have proved very ingeneous in accomplishing either option. Catholics turned a blind eye at ethnic clensing so long as catholics aren't being killed or threatened (hence the reference to the catholic concords w/ facists. Catholics will align w/ the worst of humankind to achieve the objectives of their cult...world domination. |
have you met David Ben-Ariel yet? You two are a match made in heaven... either there or the nuthouse.
My we ARE attracting a bunch of low-achievers, lately...
_________________
Ahmed the wife-beating bahgat moslem said:
"I said I will beat MY ILL CONDUCT WIFE if she insists on her ill conduct" |
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La Ilaha
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1653
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| diotima64 wrote: |
| Lyzandra Daria wrote: |
| arildno wrote: |
| Eeh, how can Islam be a "heresy" to some other equally false belief??? |
>>>
Catholics (obviously) don't consider their 'beliefs' to be false. My point is that catholics could come to also believe, as with the other 'heresies' that went the way of the sword, that Islam is actually an off shoot of catholicism which needs to be a) eradicated or b) brought into alignment. Catholics have proved very ingeneous in accomplishing either option. Catholics turned a blind eye at ethnic clensing so long as catholics aren't being killed or threatened (hence the reference to the catholic concords w/ facists. Catholics will align w/ the worst of humankind to achieve the objectives of their cult...world domination. |
have you met David Ben-Ariel yet? You two are a match made in heaven... either there or the nuthouse.
My we ARE attracting a bunch of low-achievers, lately... |
Salam
This is typical reaction when lawyers don't have anything logical to oppose others view.
Allah hafiz mohtarma dio KHAN 
Iran's secret weapon : POPE
_________________
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” |
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