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Bam
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 137
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 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| piggy wrote: |
| The words from Matthew 21:4-5 are a comment by Matthew, after the event, and not reported as having been said by Jesus. |
Mathew 21:4-5 was not a comment by the author but a narration that Jesus trying to fufill the false prophecy that he would be king:
And when they (Jesus and his disciples) drew near to Jerusale...then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
If any one says anything to you, you shall say, 'The Lord has need of them,' and he will send them immediately." This took place to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet, saying, "Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on an ass, and on a colt, the foal of an ass (Mathew 21:1-6).
| piggy wrote: |
| There is no evidence that the people even owned the animal. |
And as they (disciples) were untying the colt, its owners said to them, "Why are you untying the colt? (Luke 19:33).
| piggy wrote: |
| "the Lord needs it"?........Jesus might have been referring to God. |
And it was "God" who rode the donkey into Jerusalem.
| piggy wrote: |
| This question by Jesus could mean..."why have you left me". |
Okay, so why did Yahweh abandon Jesus to the Romans instead of fufilling the prophecy of "king" Jesus victorious establishment of his kingdom as narrated in Mathew 21:4-6?
| piggy wrote: |
| How do you know what his prayers were at Gethsemane? |
In anticipation of the fufillment of the prophecy, he was about to become king in direct confrontation against the powerful Romans. What else could he have prayed about?
| piggy wrote: |
| I don't rely on this verse |
Then which one do you rely on?
| piggy wrote: |
| IF Jesus asked Peter to put away his sword due to realizing "the futility of just 13 people against the Romans" - why would he suddenly realize this? |
Because Elohim dissapointed him.
| piggy wrote: |
| ...he would have gone down fighting |
Obviously he was nether that brave nor courageous. |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| The words from Matthew 21:4-5 are a comment by Matthew, after the event, and not reported as having been said by Jesus. |
Mathew 21:4-5 was not a comment by the author but a narration that Jesus trying to fufill the false prophecy that he would be king:
And when they (Jesus and his disciples) drew near to Jerusale...then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
If any one says anything to you, you shall say, 'The Lord has need of them,' and he will send them immediately." This took place to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet, saying, "Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on an ass, and on a colt, the foal of an ass (Mathew 21:1-6). |
Yes, it was Matthew who elected to see this as a fulfilment of a prophecy of Zechariah.
The "Lord" in Zechariah was more likley to be THE God.
Did Zechariah prophecize it would be Jesus?
Jesus just wanted to ride a horse and probably let the people believe it was the fulfillment of an earlier prophecy, but he already had stated "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
| Bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| There is no evidence that the people even owned the animal. |
And as they (disciples) were untying the colt, its owners said to them, "Why are you untying the colt? (Luke 19:33). |
You are correct again on a minor point, Bam, with regard to Luke 19:33.
At best this gives some weight to the assertion of Jesus being "king" as perceived by the people as the one in the prior prophecy .............still nothing about over-throwing the Romans using a sword or promoting any violence.
Even IF this were to be the case that Jesus was referred to as "king" by others , Jesus did not see the "kingdom" as a place to over-throw the Romans and seize as a physical kingdom..............I have already pointed this out to you but you have conveniently ignored it, as you have ignored that fact that Pilate did not consider Jesus to be launching an over-throw of the Romans.
Luke 17:20 - 17:21
The Coming of the Kingdom of God
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation,
21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
Also read my post about the Roman governor, Pilate who did not consider Jesus was embarking on a violent, over-throw using weapons.
| bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| "the Lord needs it"?........Jesus might have been referring to God. |
And it was "God" who rode the donkey into Jerusalem. |
You are making this up Bam.
It is reported that it was Jesus who rode the colt, not God.
Jesus did not claim to be God, as can be evidenced when he prayed to God at Gethsemane......you know the (invented) prayer when he made an (invented) deal with God. 
| bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| This question by Jesus could mean..."why have you left me". |
Okay, so why did Yahweh abandon Jesus to the Romans instead of fufilling the prophecy of "king" Jesus victorious establishment of his kingdom as narrated in Mathew 21:4-6? |
You are claiming that he was abandoned, Jesus willingly surrendered.............you are inventing this.
The "kingdom" has already been explained.
Who says God has to fulfill someone's prophecy anyway?
| Bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| How do you know what his prayers were at Gethsemane? |
In anticipation of the fufillment of the prophecy, he was about to become king in direct confrontation against the powerful Romans. What else could he have prayed about? |
In other words you don't know, you are guessing, there is no report of what the content of the prayer was.
It was Matthew who asserted that a prophecy was being fulfilled.
| bam wrote: |
| What else could he have prayed about? |
Beats me!.......probably the usual stuff, like thank you God for such a wonderful life, thank you god for the trees and the earth, etc, you know?.......the usual stuff when one prays.
| bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| I don't rely on this verse |
Then which one do you rely on? |
Already explained.
| Bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| IF Jesus asked Peter to put away his sword due to realizing "the futility of just 13 people against the Romans" - why would he suddenly realize this? |
Because Elohim dissapointed him. |
You already said that, and it has been proven to be an invented guess on your part, an invention in desperation to suit your slander campaign.
The answer is, because Jesus did not promote violence or harm to people, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the clear evidence and prefer to keep repeating your invented guesses as if it will make them true.
| Bam wrote: |
| piggy wrote: |
| ...he would have gone down fighting |
Obviously he was nether that brave nor courageous. |
"Obviously".............baloney.
Typical of the slander you espouse, Bam.
According to your inventions, he was brave and courageous enough to march on Jerusalem to over-throw the Romans with a handful of meek disciples, who it seems only had one sword between them. |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Bam,
With regard to John 8:7 do you have a link or reference, so that I can take a look at the annotated bible that you mentioned.
Thanks in advance. |
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freeland
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 179
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Ciao Piggy,
I was just reading your past post about religion and I was asking my self why people need so desperately to believe. Why is so essential to believe in some prophet when the Quran, the Bible, the Gospel are clearly manipulated by man. I respect people who believe, but looking back at the history of Christianity and Islam I cannot understand how can we relay on contradictory manuscripts. Perhaps we are so materialistic that we cannot accept the fact that we’ll eventually die without knowing what will happen to us, so we desperately need to believe in a life after death. When people talk about religion inevitably fight; we need to prove our religion, our prophets, our god are the authentic one. Why cant we just accept the fact that all religions were made up by men to subjugate people, to discriminate women, to terrorize people with stuff like Satan, hell, fire, sins...
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe...
[Albert Einstein] |
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doubtless
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| we’ll eventually die without knowing what will happen to us |
Who or what is this we? Religion postulates an eternal soul. "We" are our souls. Death then is separation of the soul from the body, although soul is stated in a manner that it is a "thing" itself. Reducing life to materialistic "souls" albeit eternal is an insult to the possibilties of what reality could be.
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."
Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!" |
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lilith
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:51 am Post subject: |
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That's religion talking doubtless.
You need chemicals to have a thoughtprocess, so death is just the end of that chemacal process that makes you aware.
_________________
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean;
if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.
Where there is love there is life."
Mahatma Gandhi |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| freeland wrote: |
Ciao Piggy,
I was just reading your past post about religion and I was asking my self why people need so desperately to believe. Why is so essential to believe in some prophet when the Quran, the Bible, the Gospel are clearly manipulated by man. I respect people who believe, but looking back at the history of Christianity and Islam I cannot understand how can we relay on contradictory manuscripts. Perhaps we are so materialistic that we cannot accept the fact that we’ll eventually die without knowing what will happen to us, so we desperately need to believe in a life after death. When people talk about religion inevitably fight; we need to prove our religion, our prophets, our god are the authentic one. Why cant we just accept the fact that all religions were made up by men to subjugate people, to discriminate women, to terrorize people with stuff like Satan, hell, fire, sins... |
Hi Freeland,
It is not a proven fact that Jesus even existed.
Point is, someone said what "Jesus" was reported to have said, and personally I get a message/guidance that rings true.
Using the reports (Gospels) as reference, Bam has made charges against the character of of a person in the reports (could have been a female, who knows).
Based on these reports, the evidence weighs in favour of the character of this "person" (known to us as "Jesus") as being a non-violent person, kind, merciful, compassionate, loving, humanitarian, etc.
If Bam were to be making similar charges against say, Snow White, I would defend her character in the same manner, based on available reports, (the "story") not based on popular beliefs or in dutiful-defense of a group-think religion.
In the case of "Jesus", I see a tall-poppy syndrome in effect on the part of the accuser.
That being said, it is interesting to explore this particular issue, as for me it is an interesting topic, I have never been in such a position before or taken on such a defence until recently on this forum, starting with another forumer here at FFI who made similar charges basing his case on the theories of other tall-poppy-cutters.
If it were to be the case that these charges had the weight of evidence and were proven to some reasonable degree, it would be no skin off my nose.
I don't go for religions, but that doesn't mean that the person of Jesus should "go down with the ship" which he did not even build or captain.
I think the message and guidance of Jesus has nothing to do with religion, in fact I think Jesus was against religions.
Last edited by piggy on Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| lilith wrote: |
That's religion talking doubtless.
You need chemicals to have a thoughtprocess, so death is just the end of that chemacal process that makes you aware. |
Though not only chemicals.
The "spark" of life that we have and carry to pass-on through procreation, comes from the "beginning".
The chemistry, biology may alter over time through evolution, but does the essential "spark" alter?.......has this essence remained the same since the beginning? |
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lilith
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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tall poppy effect?
I was kind of skimming over this thread.
it being safely in piggy's capable hands.
That poppy remark made me read: 'definition of love' again.
Drugs and whores amognst the tulips of holland.
With the joking reply that that made for enhanced genetically engineered flowers.
But what is a tall poppy effect?
religion as opium for the people and macro-penetration i.e. mass illusion?
_________________
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean;
if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.
Where there is love there is life."
Mahatma Gandhi |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| lilith wrote: |
tall poppy effect?
I was kind of skimming over this thread.
it being safely in piggy's capable hands.
That poppy remark made me read: 'definition of love' again.
Drugs and whores amognst the tulips of holland.
With the joking reply that that made for enhanced genetically engineered flowers.
But what is a tall poppy effect?
religion as opium for the people and macro-penetration i.e. mass illusion? |
It's like when someone is seen to be successful, achieved, popular, in a position where they are adored, etc. there are those who target these 'tall-poppies" that are prominent in height above the rest of the "flowers", to cut them down.
They ignore and over-look weeding out the more noxious "plants" that might grow at ground-level. |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| freeland wrote: |
| Perhaps we are so materialistic that we cannot accept the fact that we’ll eventually die without knowing what will happen to us, so we desperately need to believe in a life after death. |
I have no problem accepting that we’ll eventually die without knowing what will happen to us.
I don't even know if I will die in the next minute.
The next moment, minute, day, week, etc. is my "after-life".  |
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freeland
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 179
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:02 am Post subject: |
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If I were a Muslim, a man, a martyr, I would have 70 virgins at my feet. I’m not a Muslim, I’m not a man, I don’t want to be a martyr.
I wonder what’s going to happen to me after death…  X
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe...
[Albert Einstein] |
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Humanist
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| freeland wrote: |
If I were a Muslim, a man, a martyr, I would have 70 virgins at my feet. I’m not a Muslim, I’m not a man, I don’t want to be a martyr.
I wonder what’s going to happen to me after death… X |
I wish I could believe in life after death, but based on everything that I can glean it will just be oblivion. Of course that is not that bad. It sure is a lot better than hell.
If the Muslims and some Christians I know go to heaven/paradise I sure don’t want to go there.
So oblivion appears to be the destination for all Human Beings, just like elephants, dogs, lizards etc.
_________________
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell |
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scaredguy
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Your contributions to FFI wil remain for ever! Cheers.
Zoroastrianism believes in two gods - one good one bad. Those who oppose violence and dishonesty will go the good god's place. Muslim men will go to their own allah-mullah-god and live there with orgasms and wine.
We don't have to care about after-life phantasies. Our duty is to prevent human life from becoming victim of islamic and other fascisms. |
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mehdi_t
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 738
Location: France
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