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Berber
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 4049
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Kecharitomene wrote: |
| Berber wrote: |
you can talk al day long about trinity and you will not convince me LOL  . Its just does not make sense at all |
To claim that something "does not make sense" when you have no idea what it is to begin with speaks more volumes about you than I ever could.
And yes, I already realize that cult members cannot be convinced of things that differ from what they were brainwashed with.. this isn't exactly news to me. |
only chritians believe in trinity . show me this trinity in OT
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JulianCharteris
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Berber wrote: |
| JulianCharteris wrote: |
I wonder if Muslims are aware that if min dooni means 'in exclusion of', it proves even more so that the Quran cannot be true, since Jesus would never teach that there are only two gods, himself and his mother, to the exclusion of God with a capital G.
So rather than prove that the Quran did not refer to a false understanding of the Trinity, it proves a false understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ who never once denied the presence of God with a capital G.
When Jesus said, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani (Matthew 27:46), who was he referring to? Who was Eli?
Julian Charteris |
where does it say in koran that jesus preached 2 gods only. it seems you cannot even anderstand simple English.God ask Jesus whether he said to people this does not mean he told him you preach to people that there are 2 gods. as for Eli you should ask yourself that question Eli is not an Armaic word the correct word in Armaic is Elahi which means my God is like Elahi in Arabic.so if Jesus said my god then he is telling you in clear language that he is not god |
Dear Berber,
The Trinity means 3 - either 3 gods as with the Hindu Trinity, or 3 aspects of the one god as with the Christian Trinity.
My post was in response to Ahmed Bahgat who attempted to claim that min dooni means 'in exclusion to'. If Bahgat is right, then verse has Allah asking whether Jesus taught the worship of 2 gods.
This is clearly not true. It is a pity you did not understand the crux of the discussion.
Strong’s Greek-English Concordance says that "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" are Greek "transliterations" of Hebrew/Aramaic words. http://www.biblestudy.org/question/meaning-of-eli-eli-lama-sabachthani-spoken-by-jesus.html
It makes sense since the copy (or what is believed to be the original) used in most our modern translations was in Greek, so I think you're way off track with your point about Aramaic.
Julian Charteris |
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Berber
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 4049
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| JulianCharteris wrote: |
| Berber wrote: |
| JulianCharteris wrote: |
I wonder if Muslims are aware that if min dooni means 'in exclusion of', it proves even more so that the Quran cannot be true, since Jesus would never teach that there are only two gods, himself and his mother, to the exclusion of God with a capital G.
So rather than prove that the Quran did not refer to a false understanding of the Trinity, it proves a false understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ who never once denied the presence of God with a capital G.
When Jesus said, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani (Matthew 27:46), who was he referring to? Who was Eli?
Julian Charteris |
where does it say in koran that jesus preached 2 gods only. it seems you cannot even anderstand simple English.God ask Jesus whether he said to people this does not mean he told him you preach to people that there are 2 gods. as for Eli you should ask yourself that question Eli is not an Armaic word the correct word in Armaic is Elahi which means my God is like Elahi in Arabic.so if Jesus said my god then he is telling you in clear language that he is not god |
Dear Berber,
The Trinity means 3 - either 3 gods as with the Hindu Trinity, or 3 aspects of the one god as with the Christian Trinity.
My post was in response to Ahmed Bahgat who attempted to claim that min dooni means 'in exclusion to'. If Bahgat is right, then verse has Allah asking whether Jesus taught the worship of 2 gods.
This is clearly not true. It is a pity you did not understand the crux of the discussion.
Strong’s Greek-English Concordance says that "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" are Greek "transliterations" of Hebrew/Aramaic words. http://www.biblestudy.org/question/meaning-of-eli-eli-lama-sabachthani-spoken-by-jesus.html
It makes sense since the copy (or what is believed to be the original) used in most our modern translations was in Greek, so I think you're way off track with your point about Aramaic.
Julian Charteris |
I think you have problem with reading english. The verse is clearly stating God asking jesus whether he asked people to take him and his mother as 2 gods.
[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
isnt when sentence in English start with Did , the sentence is question
The phrase in Bible eli eli is not Greek is Armaic because if it were Greek then we should have the word ke tʰeˈos and not eli.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/el/Eli-Eli.html
here is verse from the gospel
[en arˈkʰi in o ˈloɣos, ke o ˈloɣos im bros to(n) tʰeˈo(n), ke tʰeˈos in o ˈloɣos. ˈutos in en arˈkʰi pros to(n) tʰeˈo(n). ˈpanda di aɸˈtu eˈjeneto, ke kʰoˈris aɸˈtu eˈjeneto ude ˈen o ˈjeɣonen. en aɸˈto zoˈi in, ke i zoˈi in to pʰos ton anˈtʰropon; ke to pʰos en di skoˈtia ˈpʰeni, ke i skoˈti(a) a(ɸ)ˈto u kaˈtelaβen]
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
I do not see the word Eli or Elo in there
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JulianCharteris
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Berber wrote: |
| I think you have problem with reading english. |
No. I don't but apparently you do.
| Berber wrote: |
The verse is clearly stating God asking jesus whether he asked people to take him and his mother as 2 gods.
[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
isnt when sentence in English start with Did , the sentence is question |
This is why I wrote that you have no understanding of the issue under discussion.
It was not me but Ahmed Bahgat that said 'min dooni' means 'in exclusion of' and not 'besides'. Therefore it was Ahmed Bahgat, not me, who said that 5:116 refers to Jesus teaching the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary) and not three (Jesus, Mary and Allah).
My point is that Jesus did not teach the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary) in exclusion of God with a capital G. His teaching always included God.
I think you need to re-read Ahmed Bahgat's posts.
If Bahgat is right about min dooni meaning in exclusion of instead of besides (as you have obviously used), then Allah is asking Jesus if he taught the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary).
If Bahgat is wrong about min dooni meaning in exclusion of instead of besides (as you have obviously used), then Allah is asking Jesus if he taught the Trinity to comprise of 3 gods (Jesus, Mary and Allah).
I hope I'm making the issue very clear now.
| Berber wrote: |
The phrase in Bible eli eli is not Greek is Armaic because if it were Greek then we should have the word ke tʰeˈos and not eli.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/el/Eli-Eli.html
here is verse from the gospel
[en arˈkʰi in o ˈloɣos, ke o ˈloɣos im bros to(n) tʰeˈo(n), ke tʰeˈos in o ˈloɣos. ˈutos in en arˈkʰi pros to(n) tʰeˈo(n). ˈpanda di aɸˈtu eˈjeneto, ke kʰoˈris aɸˈtu eˈjeneto ude ˈen o ˈjeɣonen. en aɸˈto zoˈi in, ke i zoˈi in to pʰos ton anˈtʰropon; ke to pʰos en di skoˈtia ˈpʰeni, ke i skoˈti(a) a(ɸ)ˈto u kaˈtelaβen]
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
I do not see the word Eli or Elo in there |
Wrong verse. It is obviously you don't know the Bible.
The verse you cited was John 1:1-3
The verse that has "Eli Eli Lam Sabachthani" is Matthew 27:45-46. I have already given this reference.
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/meaning-of-eli-eli-lama-sabachthani-spoken-by-jesus.html
Of course you won't see Eli in John 1:1-3 since it is the wrong verse. The Bible uses many different words for God. Theos is the Greek word for God but not the Greek TRANSLITERATION of an Aramaic/Syriac word.
I had already provided Strong's reference to show that the word Eli was a TRANSLITERATION but I wonder why you failed to notice it.
As a clarification: In the English language we use GOD to mean the supreme deity. But when we transliterate Arabic we use ALLAH. That doesn't mean we believe that Allah is God (since we don't believe Allah is the supreme deity) but that we transliterate the Arabic meaning of God to be Allah.
In the aforementioned example Theos is equivalent to God and Eli is equivalent to Allah.
Julian Charteris |
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Berber
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 4049
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| JulianCharteris said : No. I don't but apparently you do. |
No you are the one who has problem with english. This is what you said before
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
My post was in response to Ahmed Bahgat who attempted to claim that min dooni means 'in exclusion to'. If Bahgat is right, then verse has Allah asking whether Jesus taught the worship of 2 gods.
This is clearly not true. It is a pity you did not understand the crux of the discussion. |
what is not true there ? do you mean that the verse does not state that or what
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
It was not me but Ahmed Bahgat that said 'min dooni' means 'in exclusion of' and not 'besides'. Therefore it was Ahmed Bahgat, not me, who said that 5:116 refers to Jesus teaching the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary) and not three (Jesus, Mary and Allah). |
I think you misunderstood him .he was probably saying that the verse is about God asking Jesus if he taught this doctrine or not
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JulianCharteris said :
My point is that Jesus did not teach the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary) in exclusion of God with a capital G. His teaching always included God. |
Koran also say that he never did . you sound to me you never read that verse before I posted to you
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JulianCharteris said :
I think you need to re-read Ahmed Bahgat's posts.
If Bahgat is right about min dooni meaning in exclusion of instead of besides (as you have obviously used), then Allah is asking Jesus if he taught the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary). |
the way how i understand the word besides in English as apart from.
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JulianCharteris said :
If Bahgat is wrong about min dooni meaning in exclusion of instead of besides (as you have obviously used), then Allah is asking Jesus if he taught the Trinity to comprise of 3 gods (Jesus, Mary and Allah).
I hope I'm making the issue very clear now. |
no he was right .
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
As a clarification: In the English language we use GOD to mean the supreme deity. But when we transliterate Arabic we use ALLAH. That doesn't mean we believe that Allah is God (since we don't believe Allah is the supreme deity) but that we transliterate the Arabic meaning of God to be Allah.
In the aforementioned example Theos is equivalent to God and Eli is equivalent to Allah. |
Lets starte from the begining , shall we ?
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JulianCharteris said :
When Jesus said, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani (Matthew 27:46), who was he referring to? Who was Eli? |
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Beber said :
as for Eli you should ask yourself that question Eli is not an Armaic word the correct word in Armaic is Elahi which means my God is like Elahi in Arabic.so if Jesus said my god then he is telling you in clear language that he is not god |
the thing which i want to know here . what do you mean by saying that so I think you're way off track with your point about Aramaic.Do you speak Armaic ? I do not think so . I speak Arabic and Arabic is so close to Armaic . i was surprised when i watched the movie passion of the Christ in which Jesus spoke Armaic because i heard so many words that look just like Arabic . One of those words are when he was on the cross and cried Eli Eli .Let me tell what he really said . Elahi Elahi lima and not Eli eli .Do you know why ? because Mil Gipson hired the expert in Armaic to shoot the movie .Ask any Arabic Muslim speaker how do you say my God why in Arabic ? its just exactly like in Armaic . for that reason I said to you that Eli Eli is not correct Armaic word for my God there is big difference between Eli and Elahi .
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anasya
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 129
Location: somewhere in this world
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Berber wrote: |
[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
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Your Allah and Mohamed pedofils and rapers did even here mistakes!!! my dear look what dose it mean Trinity in Bible and not invention of your fu!ing sh!t god :
1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.
2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.
3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:1 and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.
4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).
5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.
6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8 ; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.
The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:3. Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
WHERE IS MARRY HERE????? [/b]
What to do if Mohamed's brain is bettwen blackbone and ribs!!!!!!![b] |
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anasya
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 129
Location: somewhere in this world
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Berber wrote: |
[
what is not true there ? do you mean that the verse does not state that or what
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Read the Bible and you will gonna see the christian truth..but be carefull to dont become apostate in islam |
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Kecharitomene
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 465
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Berber wrote: |
| Kecharitomene wrote: |
| Berber wrote: |
| you can talk al day long about trinity and you will not convince me LOL . Its just does not make sense at all |
To claim that something "does not make sense" when you have no idea what it is to begin with speaks more volumes about you than I ever could.
And yes, I already realize that cult members cannot be convinced of things that differ from what they were brainwashed with.. this isn't exactly news to me. |
only chritians believe in trinity . show me this trinity in OT |
There is no reference to God being a Trinity in the OT. However, there is nothing in the OT that denies God is a Trinity either.
Your line of reasoning that "if something isn't mentioned in the OT it must not exist", does not hold water though. I don't know what you hope to prove with this. |
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JulianCharteris
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Berber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| JulianCharteris said : No. I don't but apparently you do. |
No you are the one who has problem with english. This is what you said before.
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
My post was in response to Ahmed Bahgat who attempted to claim that min dooni means 'in exclusion to'. If Bahgat is right, then verse has Allah asking whether Jesus taught the worship of 2 gods.
This is clearly not true. It is a pity you did not understand the crux of the discussion. |
what is not true there ? do you mean that the verse does not state that or what |
Dear Berber,
I think you need to step back a little and think about what you're saying. It is very clear you have no idea of what the issue is.
I think you don't realize that Ahmed Bahgat is saying that according to the verse, Allah was asking Jesus if he taught the worship of 2 gods that DID NOT INCLUDE ALLAH
i.e. Jesus was supposed to teach the worship of Jesus and Mary as gods, BUT NOT ALLAH.
In other words - Jesus DENIED the teaching of Allah as the supreme god.
This is in consequence of his definition of 'min dooni' to mean 'in exclusion of' rather than the usual meaning of 'besides' or 'in addition to'.
| Berber wrote: |
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
It was not me but Ahmed Bahgat that said 'min dooni' means 'in exclusion of' and not 'besides'. Therefore it was Ahmed Bahgat, not me, who said that 5:116 refers to Jesus teaching the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary) and not three (Jesus, Mary and Allah). |
I think you misunderstood him .he was probably saying that the verse is about God asking Jesus if he taught this doctrine or not |
No. I don't think so. Ask yourself what 'min dooni' means. You say it means 'besides'. He said it means 'in exclusion of'.
That was the entire point of his assertion.
| Berber wrote: |
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
My point is that Jesus did not teach the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary) in exclusion of God with a capital G. His teaching always included God. |
Koran also say that he never did . you sound to me you never read that verse before I posted to you |
I know that. You know that. But does Ahmed Bahgat know that? I'm pointing out his peculiar definition of 'min dooni' raises the problem that it would mean 2 gods instead of 3.
You can't 'exclude' Allah from Jesus's teachings - since he's supposed to be a prophet of Allah. If he is then Ahmed Bahgat's definition of 'min dooni' is wrong.
The problem I think is that you don't understand what we're discussing. We're actually discussing the meaning of 'min dooni' - which leads the verse referring to 2 or 3 gods.
| Berber wrote: |
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
I think you need to re-read Ahmed Bahgat's posts.
If Bahgat is right about min dooni meaning in exclusion of instead of besides (as you have obviously used), then Allah is asking Jesus if he taught the worship of 2 gods (Jesus and Mary). |
the way how i understand the word besides in English as apart from. |
But that is not what Ahmed Bahgat understands 'min dooni' to mean. You really ought to read his post and understand what the discussion is all about.
| Berber wrote: |
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
If Bahgat is wrong about min dooni meaning in exclusion of instead of besides (as you have obviously used), then Allah is asking Jesus if he taught the Trinity to comprise of 3 gods (Jesus, Mary and Allah).
I hope I'm making the issue very clear now. |
no he was right . |
No he was wrong. Do you even realise that his definition of min dooni is different from yours?
He is saying your definition of min dooni to mean 'besides' is crap. Why are you jumping on me when I actually am of the same position as you? I think his definition is wrong and min dooni should mean 'besides' and not 'in exclusion of'. But you instintively take the side of the Muslim and jump on the kafir even though the kafir agrees with you.
That is why I keep saying you don't understand the crux of the discussion.
| Berber wrote: |
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
As a clarification: In the English language we use GOD to mean the supreme deity. But when we transliterate Arabic we use ALLAH. That doesn't mean we believe that Allah is God (since we don't believe Allah is the supreme deity) but that we transliterate the Arabic meaning of God to be Allah.
In the aforementioned example Theos is equivalent to God and Eli is equivalent to Allah. |
Lets starte from the begining , shall we ?
| Quote: |
JulianCharteris said :
When Jesus said, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani (Matthew 27:46), who was he referring to? Who was Eli? |
| Quote: |
Beber said :
as for Eli you should ask yourself that question Eli is not an Armaic word the correct word in Armaic is Elahi which means my God is like Elahi in Arabic.so if Jesus said my god then he is telling you in clear language that he is not god |
the thing which i want to know here . what do you mean by saying that so I think you're way off track with your point about Aramaic.Do you speak Armaic ? I do not think so . I speak Arabic and Arabic is so close to Armaic . i was surprised when i watched the movie passion of the Christ in which Jesus spoke Armaic because i heard so many words that look just like Arabic . One of those words are when he was on the cross and cried Eli Eli .Let me tell what he really said . Elahi Elahi lima and not Eli eli .Do you know why ? because Mil Gipson hired the expert in Armaic to shoot the movie .Ask any Arabic Muslim speaker how do you say my God why in Arabic ? its just exactly like in Armaic . for that reason I said to you that Eli Eli is not correct Armaic word for my God there is big difference between Eli and Elahi . |
It's because Eli is the Greek transliteration for the Aramaic word Elahi. That is what Strong's was referring to. Why would you expect the Greeks to transliterate something super accurately?
If Eli is not God/Elahi who is Eli?
Besides, your John 1:1-3 verse also proves me right and Ahmed Bahgat wrong since who is God being referred to here?
If God is the supreme god, and Jesus was referring to God in John 1:1-3 and not Jesus or Mary, then Ahmed Bahgat's definition of 'min dooni' as 'in exclusion of' cannot be right.
Therefore, I suggest you re-read Ahmed Bahgat's posts to find out what we are actually talking of here.
Julian M Charteris |
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Berber
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 4049
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| anasya said : 2) In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). |
if Elohim is plural why the scholars did not translated it as Gods . This claim is based on ignorance of Semitic languages. In most eastern languages, there are two types of plurals, i.e. plural of numbers and plural of respect. In the Koran, God speaks of Himself as "us" and "we" as well. Yet in those verses, no Muslim will ever doubt that God is referring to Himself alone.
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