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Quran 2:282 - Please Vote
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Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Women in Islam

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Why does Allah mandate this Requirement?

Women are Liars, so the other is there to make sure she is truthful

[ 2 ]

Women have a Naturally Bad Memory, so the second Woman is there to remind the First

17%

[ 7 ]

Women are Deficient in Intelligence thus Allah is saying they are too inferior to be equal to a man

51%

[ 20 ]

Women are Deficient in Intelligence, but this does not make them inferior to men

[ 3 ]

Other (please elaborate)

17%

[ 7 ]

Total Votes : 39

Author

Message

MsWesterner

Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:38 am Post subject:

Just a woman.....do not LIE about "side by side" praying. The truth is when you first wrote that, although you didnt specify you made a bald statement but were really referring to males only, werent you. We are not deficient like you appear to have become (not that you were made that way of course, but it is called conditioning) and we know that women do not sit side by side with males in the mosques. Face facts woman - you are coming across as a real joke!!!

LadyTex

Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 1065
Location: God Bless Texas!

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:24 am Post subject:

Just a woman wrote:

Why do you assume that Allah didn't know something of made a mistake? This rule was placed by Allah.

Then why only make a rule for women and not for men also?

Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:05 am Post subject:

Quote:

Look as we have ALL said: if your beliefs/interpretations were mainstream, and what Allah and Muhammad meant, then fine. But they're not, so your conjecture is irrelevant, and is not supported by any evidence whatsoever.

So bring evidence or put a sock in it, liar.

My peaceful and equitable interpretations are main stream.
The majority of Muslims in the Islamic world practice Islam peacefully and interpret the Quran in a peaceful way.

The interpretations that you use are not main stream, and are the practices of a small minority of Muslims who are very violent.

You say you interpret Islam from Quran...ha... you speculate.. nothing more.
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:06 am Post subject:

LadyTex wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

Why do you assume that Allah didn't know something of made a mistake? This rule was placed by Allah.

Then why only make a rule for women and not for men also?

Thats something that we have to speculate about as Quran does not tell us why........
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:15 am Post subject:

Just a woman wrote:

My peaceful and equitable interpretations are main stream.

No, they really aren't.

Just a woman wrote:

The majority of Muslims in the Islamic world practice Islam peacefully and interpret the Quran in a peaceful way.

And when they are called to Jihad?

Look the point I'm making is that your interpretation is not supported by the Quran/ahadith.

We're all still waiting on evidence to the contrary. Until you can provide us with this evidence, your claims are meaningless.

Just a woman wrote:

The interpretations that you use are not main stream, and are the practices of a small minority of Muslims who are very violent.

Liar. We know Muhammad's Islam, and the Islam of the first muslims. Just because you have innovated Islam to suit yourse.f, don't tell us that i what Islam is, because it is all lies.

Just a woman wrote:

You say you interpret Islam from Quran...ha... you speculate.. nothing more.

No, we provide evidence for our assertations about Islam.

You are the one who provides no evidence, hence you are projecting your own faults/flaws onto us.

Provide evidence or concede the point.

-Sani
_________________
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Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:17 am Post subject:

MsWesterner wrote:

Just a woman.....do not LIE about "side by side" praying.

The truth is when you first wrote that, although you didnt specify you made a bald statement but were really referring to males only, werent you.

We are not deficient like you appear to have become (not that you were made that way of course, but it is called conditioning) and we know that women do not sit side by side with males in the mosques.

Face facts woman - you are coming across as a real joke!!!

I was just speaking about males at the time but a group of females can and do sit adjacent to groups of men as long as they are not mixed.
Your not deficient you say........ so I guess your perfect... Well congratulations because you are the first person in all the world to be so...
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:17 am Post subject:

Just a woman wrote:

LadyTex wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

Why do you assume that Allah didn't know something of made a mistake? This rule was placed by Allah.

Then why only make a rule for women and not for men also?

Thats something that we have to speculate about as Quran does not tell us why........

The hadiths do. Now please get back to me regarding the authenticity of the hadiths. You stated that they are "contradictory" please elaborate (with evidence).

Any speculation on your part (ie. not supported directly by the Quran/other ahadiths) will be rejected.

Now back up your claim regarding contradictions.

-Sani
_________________
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Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:24 am Post subject:

Sanitarium wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

My peaceful and equitable interpretations are main stream.

No, they really aren't.

Just a woman wrote:

The majority of Muslims in the Islamic world practice Islam peacefully and interpret the Quran in a peaceful way.

Just a woman wrote:

The interpretations that you use are not main stream, and are the practices of a small minority of Muslims who are very violent.

Liar. We know Muhammad's Islam, and the Islam of the first muslims. Just because you have innovated Islam to suit yourse.f, don't tell us that i what Islam is, because it is all lies.

Just a woman wrote:

You say you interpret Islam from Quran...ha... you speculate.. nothing more.

Everything you said as to why Allah gave the rule of two witnesses is speculation. You know Islam.. your knowledge of Islam is limited to the small Arab population of Muslim.
You are judging Islam by less than 20% of its population.
Your claims are speculations and nothing more.

I presented my evidence, Quran says the reason is in case the other errs, anything that contradicts Quran is void.........
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:27 am Post subject:

Sanitarium wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

LadyTex wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

Why do you assume that Allah didn't know something of made a mistake? This rule was placed by Allah.

Then why only make a rule for women and not for men also?

Thats something that we have to speculate about as Quran does not tell us why........

The Quran says the reason women have two witness is in case the other errs, forgets, make a mistake.
Any hadith that says that Allah gave this rule for any other reason, like being deficient is contradictory to the reason Quran gave as to why women have two witnesses. So it would be rendered void
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:38 am Post subject:

Just a woman wrote:

Everything you said as to why Allah gave the rule of two witnesses is speculation.

Again you're trying to seperate the hadiths from 2:282. Why is that? I've already shown you that you can't, unless they are contradictory/not authentic (you have to prove this)

Just a woman wrote:

You know Islam.. your knowledge of Islam is limited to the small Arab population of Muslim.

Actually I'd say your knowledge is limited only to your indoctrination. You have done no outside study (outside your own accepted beliefs).

Just a woman wrote:

You are judging Islam by less than 20% of its population.
Your claims are speculations and nothing more.

I presented my evidence, Quran says the reason is in case the other errs, anything that contradicts Quran is void.........

No dear, I told you already. I judge Islam by the Quran and ahadith. I have told you this repeatedly.

Back up your claim of the hadiths being void. You still haven't provided any evidence.

Just a Woman wrote:

Having a bad (or less) memory is deficiency. Sorry, its not a contradiction so you cannot dismiss the hadiths.

Now stop flailing and go do some honest research and get back to us with a real answer.

Stop wasting our time here.

-Sanitarium
_________________
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Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:48 am Post subject:

Code:

I do indeed NOT agree! They are no more deficient than every MAN. If women are deficient, so are men - either that, or go and show/proof, that men are somehow NOT deficient.

Then men are deficient too. Quran are hadith didn't say that they weren't.

Quote:

Wow! After just emphatically stating,that women ARE deficient, you NOW emphatically claim they are NOT! Merely making "natural human errors"... well, if both sexes are prone to those errrors - WHY have specific rules for women???

Women do have a deficiency. But Quran did not say that the 2 witness rule was given because she was deficient, it said that women were given 2 witness in case the other errs and to err is natural and human. The Quran doesn't say that the rule is given because she is deficient.

Quote:

Gosh, you are a dodo, indeed! You YOURSELF say the reason are the "natural human errors" BOTH men AND women make... well?? THEN WHY SPECIAL RULES`???

This is something that you would have to speculate about.
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

Last edited by Just a woman on Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total

Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:56 am Post subject:

Sanitarium wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

Everything you said as to why Allah gave the rule of two witnesses is speculation.

Again you're trying to seperate the hadiths from 2:282. Why is that? I've already shown you that you can't, unless they are contradictory/not authentic (you have to prove this)

Just a woman wrote:

You know Islam.. your knowledge of Islam is limited to the small Arab population of Muslim.

Actually I'd say your knowledge is limited only to your indoctrination. You have done no outside study (outside your own accepted beliefs).

Just a woman wrote:

No dear, I told you already. I judge Islam by the Quran and ahadith. I have told you this repeatedly.

Back up your claim of the hadiths being void. You still haven't provided any evidence.

Just a Woman wrote:

Quote:

Quran never said women had bad memories or less memories... this is the speculation that I am talking about. And to give any other reason as to why 2 witnesses are given to women is contradicting Quran, as the Quran has stated why.
Your wasting your own time trying to pass your speculations as facts..... so its up to you to stop debating or to continue to do so...... it doesn't matter to me which one you decide.
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:02 am Post subject:

shoeshiner wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

Just a woman wrote:

Why do you assume that Allah didn't know something of made a mistake? This rule was placed by Allah.

I am not assuming anything. 2+2=4, and that's a fact.

You said that Allah requires two women to be witnesses, because if one errs, then the other can remind her.

Fact is that women are better than men in remembering details, so the chance of them making mistakes is lower than men.

Therefore men are the ones that should be required to be two, just in case one errs.

And therefore, we can conclude that the Koran and Allah erred.

It's really that simple.

Because Allah favored the woman with something he didn't favor the man with you say he made a mistake. WOW.
Thats speculating.

Since you say that women are better than men in remembering, then a woman having a extra woman there to remind her is for sure to do a out standing job as a witness. Whats the problem?
How is this unfair to women?

No, that's not what I am saying at all. I am sure that you understand what I am saying and you are playing dumb.

Let me rephrase, you are saying that since women are deficient in intelligence, then Allah provided a means for two women to be witnesses, so that if one errs, then the other can remind her. I showed you that the man is more likely to err, so why didn't Allah require the men to be two or more witnesses?

Im not saying that since women are deficient in intellect that Allah gave the rule of two witnesses for them. The Quran said why the women are given two witnesses any anything different than that reason is speculation and contradictory to Quran.
I agreed that women have a deficiency in their intellect but I do not say that this is the reason behind the rule in Quran as Quran gave the reason.
_________________
The wolves sent an embassy to the sheep saying, "lets make peace, Those dogs that you keep are the problem."
The silly sheep listened, and became an easy prey to their treacherous enemy. The FFI wolves

doubtless

Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:18 am Post subject:

Just a woman, You are not cutting a very pathetic figure. I really am starting to feel sorry for you. Your need to protect the idiocy of the Qrap is obviously overwhelming. Do not feel too bad, most muslim are like that. They cannot handle seeing that their Qrap is really and truly crap. It takes time to come to terms with it. _________________ Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt." Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!"

Ajax

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 2927
Location: Elysian Fields

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:34 am Post subject:

Sanitarium wrote:

Now stop flailing and go do some honest research and get back to us with a real answer.

Stop wasting our time here.

19 pages and still going strong.
19 pages and you still get the same repetitive garbage (well, plus tu quoque). She is not going to prove her case and she's not going to admit defeat. Best to just close the debate and stop wasting your time. She admitted that she'd believe in the Quran whatever it says. That should tell you that she gave up thinking for herself and her mind is shut tighter than a locked box in a bank vault at midnight.

I am out of this thread. I like my head very much and I'd rather stop banging my head on the wall. You guys are much more patient than I am.
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Religion of Blood, Religion of Death
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