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Apple Pie
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 823
Location: Houston
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 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject: Koranic Muhammad is Jesus... |
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All,
This is a study encompassing the understanding of the Koranic “Muhammad”.
Like most things that Christians (and Muslims!) are told by Islam, the truth of the matter, as written in their scripture set, is usually in diametric opposition.
So it is with Islam’s “prophet Muhammad”.
Let’s begin our exegesis by examining the classic Arabic definition for “Muhammad”; how frequently the term (by itself) is used; and how its root and all derivatives are utilized in the Koran.
محمد = “muhammadun”
“muhammadun” definition:
Passive participle. A man praised much, or repeatedly, or time after time; endowed with many praiseworthy qualities. Praised one.
It comes from the root “hamida”, which means he praised, eulogized, or commended him; spoke well of him; mentioned him with approbation; sometimes because of favor received. Also implies admiration; and it implies the magnifying, or honoring, of the object thereof; and lowliness, humility, or submissiveness, in the person who offers it. He declared the praises of God or he praised God much with good forms of praise.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 638 – 640
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 135 - 136
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 38
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 56
Occurrences of “muhammadun” & “muhammadin” in the Koran: 4
Locations: 3.144, 33.40, 47.2, 48.29
Occurrences of the root “hamida” and its sixteen derivatives in the Koran: 68
Locations: 1.2, 2.30, 2.267, 3.144, 3.188, 4.131, 6.1, 6.45, 7.43, 9.112, 10.10, 11.73, 13.13, 14.1, 14.8, 14.39, 15.98, 16.75, 17.44, 17.52, 17.79, 17.111, 18.1, 20.130, 22.24, 22.64, 23.28, 25.58, 27.15, 27.59, 27.93, 28.70, 29.63, 30.18, 31.12, 31.25, 31.26, 32.15, 33.40, 34.1(2x), 34.6, 35.1, 35.15, 35.34, 37.182, 39.29, 39.74, 39.75(2x), 40.7, 40.55, 40.65, 41.42, 42.5, 42.28, 45.36, 47.2, 48.29, 50.39, 52.48, 57.24, 60.6, 61.6, 64.1, 64.6, 85.8, 110.3
Observe the Koranic usages…
• 1.2…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 2.30…praise to the lord
• 2.267…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 3.144…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 3.188…they are praised – painful torture
• 4.131…praise to “allah”
• 6.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 6.45…and the praise belonging to “allah”, lord
• 7.43…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 9.112…the praise to “allah”
• 10.10…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 11.73…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 13.13…on account of the praise, “allah”
• 14.1…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 14.8…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 14.39…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 15.98…lord’s praise
• 16.75…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 17.44…on account of his praise, “allah”, lord
• 17.52…on account of his praise, lord
• 17.79…lord praised
• 17.111…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 18.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 20.130…lord’s praise
• 22.24…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 22.64…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 23.28…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 25.58…on account of lords praise
• 27.15…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 27.59…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 27.93…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 28.70…the praise to “allah”
• 29.63…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 30.18…the praise, “allah”
• 31.12…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 31.25…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 31.26…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 32.15…lord’s praise
• 33.40…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 34.1…the praise belonging to “allah”(2x)
• 34.6…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 35.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 35.15…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 35.34…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 37.182…and the praise belonging to “allah”, lord
• 39.29…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.74…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.75…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 39.75…lord’s praise
• 40.7…lord’s praise
• 40.55…lord’s praise
• 40.65…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 41.42…praiseworthy, lord
• 42.5…lord’s praise
• 42.28…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 45.36…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 47.2…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 48.29…a MAN praised much – praised one
• 50.39…lord’s praise
• 52.48…lord’s praise
• 57.24…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 60.6…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 61.6…a MAN praised
• 64.1…the praise belonging to “allah”
• 64.6…“allah” is praiseworthy
• 85.8…the praiseworthy – one of the names of “allah”
• 110.3…lord’s praise
Summarizing this data, we have the following premises upon which to build our understanding of the Koranic “Muhammad”:
• The word itself is not a proper name
• The word is a participle…i.e. it combines the functions of both adjective and verb
• It applies to one man
• This man is praised
• He is the only man praised
• The root “hamida”, from which “Muhammad” is derived, refers to the praising of God
• Surveying all 68 Koranic occurrences of the root “hamida” and its sixteen derivatives, demonstrates the overwhelming usage in direct relation to Koranic deity (i.e. “allah”, lord)
• The only Koranic instance of a derivative not pertaining to deity is in 3.188 - in which people are tortured for accepting praises – thus, reserving “praise” for deity only
• This leaves us with 5 ayahs that “appear” to buck the trend
• All 5 of these ayahs refer to a man
• All 5 ayahs refer to a man that is praised
Thus…
This begs the question…
1) How could the “praising” (that is reserved only for Koranic deity) be applied to a single man?
Feel free to join in with your feedback… |
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buffy
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1824
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Your thread is great. Muha-Mad was not the first to be named thus :
| Quote: |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_%28name%29
Etymology
The name Muhammad is the transliteration of a Arabic name that comes from the Arabic passive participle from the Triconsonantal root of H-M-D ("praise"), meaning "the praised one".
Other Arabic names bearing a resemblence include Mahmud, Ahmed, Hamid and al-Hamid, one of the 99 names of God meaning "The Blesser".
The name is also transliterated as Mohammad, Mohammed, Mohamed, Muhammed, Mahommed, Mehmed, Mehmet, Mahomet. In Latin, it is Mahometus . Chinese: [4]. Pinyin: [5]
"Muhammad" it itself if not the most common transliteration, but it is the most correct among the most used.
[edit]
History
A legend states that the first person named Muhammad was the Islamic prophet Muhammad (c. 570–632) [1], however, some Muslim sources contradicts this. The Encyclopaedia of Islam states:
The name "Muhammad" is reported to have occurred previously among the Arabs (e.g. Ibn Durayd, ed. Wustenfeld, 6 f.; Ibn Sa'd, i/1, 111 f.) and therefore need not be regarded as an epithet adopted later in life by the Prophet. It should be noted, however, that the brief section on such persons given by Ibn Sa'd has the heading, "Account of those who were named Muhammad in the days of the djahiliyya [q.v.] in the hope of being called to prophethood which had been predicted", which indicates the tendentious nature of some of these accounts. The fact that the sources say frequently that in his youth Muhammad was called Amin, a common Arab name meaning "faithful, trustworthy", suggests the possibility that this could have been his given name, a masculine form from the same root as his mother's name, Amina.but it is more probable that Amin was a nickname given to him by The residents of mecca as he was called Al-sadiq Al-amin meanning "the truthfull , the trustworthy" due to his reputation of impartiality . The name Muhammada for women occurs several times in the Syrian Book of the Himyarites.[2]
Ibn Ishaq's "The Life of Muhammad" includes a particular person named Muhammad that was killed in c.570 CE, the Year of the Elephant, and who was related to the known events of that year.
During the prophets era, men like Muhammad ibn Maslama bore the same name.
It is stated that the name was "very rare" among Arabs of that era [3]. |
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firesnake
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3797
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Sorry cant give you any feedback but as usual, your threads were always great, apple pie!!
_________________
"you can married a little girl up 6 years old.. (in Islam), you can tried f*ed her, after she got menstruation (9-11 years old) .. .. " Monassjazz
</islam> |
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Ben
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 25
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Apple Pie,
Nice to see you active again. I have not had a reply to your private messages yet, but considering it took me a couple of months to reply to yours, Im not suprised. Hope you're doing well.
In answer to your questions, and again, I am NO scholar, so forgive me for my shortcomings:
Firstly:
Allah praises Muhammad SAW in numerous places in the Quran for his excellent and noble qualities. This is not to detract that all *ultimate*
praise is due to Allah alone, it is to show us Muslims that we should follow Muhammad (pbuh) in every way possible in our daily lives, because Allah is clearly pleased by the actions of his beloved Prophet. , By following the examples of our Prophet, inshaa allah, this will result in Allah becoming pleased with our actions also.
Examples:
3:31 Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character.
One must note, that Allah does not only praise Muhammad, pbuh, but all the Prophets and the righteous who stood head and shoulders above the rest. So, clearly, praise by Allah was not reserved for Muhammad alone. Praise is due to those highest in Piety and righteousness.
Examples:
2:253 Those messengers – some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit (Gabriel). If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends.
3:42 And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.
60:4 There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah......
Let me give an everyday example. We are taught to be polite in our day to day dealings.
Lets say I sit down to eat in an Indian Restaurant. I LOVE the food and at the end of the meal I thank the chefs immensely for their great cooking. I get into a conversation about how they became so good and when they started in the business This is polite manners. We are all recipients of praise in our everyday lives and there is no harm or sin in it as long as it is not taken to excess. All praise is ultimately due to Allah alone, which is why its recommended (but not compulsory) to also say Al Hamdullilah often in our daily dealings. (praise is due to Allah) It is a mark of respect to our Creator, who Created us after all.
Secondly, Muhammad was not a unique name at the time of his birth.
I have no dispute there.
Finally, this is the first message I have posted on the board for a while. I ceased posting because I started receiving alarmingly aggressive and despicable messages, attacking my faith. Should this recommence, I will withdraw my input from this board again.
Apple Pie, I praise you for your maturity on this board and look forward to your reply ;-)
Regards,
Ben
_________________
I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah |
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buffy
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1824
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Your picture is offending. Remove this explicit drawing from here! We don't need to see your pair of balls and half a penis avatar.
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Basileos
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 4873
Location: Snowy forests of the North
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| buffy wrote: |
Your picture is offending. Remove this explicit drawing from here! We don't need to see your pair of balls and half a penis avatar.
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Actually that thing on a left looks like pair of tits.
_________________
Those who make you believe absurdities will also make you commit monstrosities. -Voltaire |
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Apple Pie
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 823
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ben wrote: |
Apple Pie,
Nice to see you active again. I have not had a reply to your private messages yet, but considering it took me a couple of months to reply to yours, Im not suprised. Hope you're doing well.
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Greetings Ben,
I appreciate your thoughtful and genuine reply…thanks. Welcome back from your trip(s)….and hope your new job is working-out well for you.
I have been plying my “trade” on other boards lately & researching in numerous areas simultaneously. I did see your pm’s and will take the time to reply there as well…
| Quote: |
In answer to your questions, and again, I am NO scholar, so forgive me for my shortcomings:
Firstly:
Allah praises Muhammad SAW in numerous places in the Quran for his excellent and noble qualities. This is not to detract that all *ultimate*
praise is due to Allah alone, it is to show us Muslims that we should follow Muhammad (pbuh) in every way possible in our daily lives, because Allah is clearly pleased by the actions of his beloved Prophet. , By following the examples of our Prophet, inshaa allah, this will result in Allah becoming pleased with our actions also. |
“Allah” praises….or “allah” is pleased by “Muhammad”…?
Let’s look together…
For brevity in this reply; let’s review your first two examples…
| Quote: |
Examples:
3:31 Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." |
قل إن كنتم تحبون الله فاتبعوني يحببكم الله
ويغفر لكم ذنوبكم والله غفور رحيم
Qul in kuntum tuhibboona Allaha faittabiAAoonee yuhbibkumu Allahu wayaghfir lakum thunoobakum waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun
3.31 Say: if you are, you love “allah”, so (if) you follow me, “allah” he will love you and will certainly forgive you from your sins, and “allah” (is) the most protecting one, ever merciful.
Here we are told that if you love “allah”; then you will follow me…
The term “Muhammad” does not reside in this ayah – thus we will have to incorporate some further context in order to determine who “me” is actually referring to.
Observe that 3.31. demonstrates a cause and effect relationship…between “allah” and “me”.
I do not see any “praising of Muhammad” in this ayah.
In fact, it is quite clear that the “me” is the one speaking.
Further, it is rather clear that this material is paralleling the Gospel accounts of Jesus and His Father.
Since my position is that the Koranic “Muhammad” is actually, in fact, the Biblical Jesus Christ, this ayah (if it has indeed been copied from the Gospels) would further cement-in that it is referring to the Biblical Jesus Christ.
Adding-in a little context…
قل أطيعوا الله والرسول فإن تولوا فإن الله لا
يحب الكفرين
Qul ateeAAoo Allaha waalrrasoola fa-in tawallaw fa-inna Allaha la yuhibbu alkafireena
3.32 Say: obey “allah”, and The Messenger, so if they turned away, so certainly “allah” he does not love the disbelievers.
3.32 informs us of the one to follow….i.e. “The Messenger”.
3.32 also tells us that “The Messenger” is to be obeyed in the same fashion as “allah”.
This, in itself, is a strong indicator that “The Messenger” is on the same level as “allah”…i.e. deity…
Interestingly, “ateeAAoo” occurs 5x in the Koran, and in each occurrence, it is used in direct relationship to “allah” and “his messenger” or “the messenger”….
Further, it can be demonstrated, in the Koran, that “Muhammad” is also called “his messenger”…thus, the translator’s usage of “Muhammad..i.e. praised one…i.e. Jesus”, in brackets, while not in the original Arabic, would be the one being discussed in these ayahs.
| Quote: |
| 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character. |
وإنك لعلى خلق عظيم
Wa-innaka laAAala khuluqin AAatheemin
68.4 And certainly as perhaps you (are of) great moral character.
You will observe that Sura 68 also does not contain the term “Muhammad” anywhere in the ayah in question – nor in the entire sura.
Thus, once again, the English translators are attempting to draw an inference from the text that they are translating.
68.4 is a continuation of the attribute stream that is established in the preceding ayahs leading up to it, via the copulative conjunction “wa”.
Most interesting, part of this attribute stream (as found in 68.2) actually follows the same formula as that found in 81.22…as referring to John, the Companion of Jesus Christ.
You can observe the exegete here…
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=216548#216548
Thus, a very strong case can be made for 68.4 as referencing John…and not the Koranic “Muhammad”…i.e. Jesus…
Further, there is no praising of “John” in 68.4 – but only the comment that perhaps he is of great moral character…and, I would think that he was, as the authors who penned the Koran managed to squeeze and disseminate his entire Book of Revelation material into the Islamic book of faith…
Ben, also observe that neither of these two ayahs share the root “hamida”…..from which the word “Muhammad” has its origin…
Thanks… |
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Querozayna
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 946
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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3.31 Say: if you are, you love “allah”, so (if) you follow me, “allah” he will love you and will certainly forgive you from your sins, and “allah” (is) the most protecting one, ever merciful.
With regard to the above ayat.Whenever an ayat (or phrasal sentence in an ayat) in the Quran starts with the imperative 'say' it is clear who is saying what to whom. When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) recieved Quranic revelation which started with 'say' then it is the Prophet who is being commanded by God/Allah to say something to his followers (muslims). So really context is not needed to dicipher who the 'me' is in ayat 3.31. The 'me' in this case is clearly The Prophet Muhammed (1st person case) as he is being commanded to speak "if you love allah,,then follow me..."
I'm no expert on the Gospel so I dont know if this ayat is paralleling accounts of Jesus and his 'father'. And if it is paralleling the Gospel, this does not mean the 'me' in ayat 3.31 is refering to Jesus, firstly, and foremostly for the reason mentioned above. Secondly so what if it is? The Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is also a messenger of God/Allah who shared the same form of relationship with God/Allah and had the the role to perform as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). All the Prophets of God/Allah were sent to be followed and obeyed as a means to gaining the love of God/Allah. Muslims should accept the terms of Jesus and 'the Father', so long as this is not part of the Christian trinitarian concept of God but rather - Jesus the Prophet of God/Allah and God, the 'Father'. If memory serves, in Islam, although the name 'Father' is not an accepted name for God/Allah it may be acceptable for a human to refer to God/Allah as 'Father' but as a metaphor in the sense of a distinct and unique creator and sustainer.
Jesus Christ (pbuh) in the Quran is specifically mentioned in the Quran by the name of Isa or 'Isa son of Maryum (the Virgin Mary)'. As far as I know the name Isa is even mentioned more times in the Quran than the name Muhummad (or Ahmad - which is a variant form of the same name) - sorry I dont know how many times if any Jesus is mentioned via pronoun but it is pretty unequivocal when the Prophets Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) are being referred to in the Quran.
3.32 Say: obey “allah”, and The Messenger, so if they turned away, so certainly “allah” he does not love the disbelievers.
With regard to the above verse.I would like to say this. I think you have just demonstrated the problem of trying to understand the Quran by interpreting an interpretation. And it is one of the wonders of the Divine religion of Islam that we still have the original revelation in its pure and unadulterated form so that we can understand it properly and truely in contrast to the Christians who have lost thier original Gospel.
By trying to understand the Quran by analysing an english interpretation you can inadvertantly become oblivious to factors essential in comprehending its true meaning thus leading you to misunderstand it. For instance in the arabic language there could be a peculiarity specific to it where for example when there is a 'chain of command' (so to speak) following a word to obey then the first in the chain has a higher rank. I'm not saying this is the case here but just pointing out a shortcomming of trying to understand the Quran they way you are trying to.
Anyway for argument sake, you suggest that Islam raises the status of the Prophet Muhammad to that of God/Allah because the Quran commands muslims to 'obey Allah AND the Messenger'. God/Allah has chosen His method of communicating His guidance to Mankind via Prophets and Messengers of His choosing. The role of God's/Allah's messengers is to relay His commands and guidance, and so therefore by obeying His Messenger's you are obeying God this does not mean by obeying His messengers you are turning them into dieties. A deity is something that is worshipped not something that is obeyed, you obey your boss or your teacher but that does not make them your god.
68.4 And certainly as perhaps you (are of) great moral character.
Again you have too look at how the Quran was revealed, then it is clear who this is referring to.
The Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) received Divine Revelation directly, via the Angle Gabriel ,inspirational trance, dreams. So if we see this ayat being communicated to the Prophet Muhammed from God/Allah i.e. Allah/God is saying to His Prophet "and certainly as perhaps you (are of) great moral character", then it is clear who the 'you' (2nd person).
[DISCLAIMER: All the above is my opinion and not to be taken as the true Islamic understanding and teachings according to the righteous and pious scholars of Islam]
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FFI - just a hair on the butt crack of insanity |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Querozayna says: The Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) received Divine Revelation directly, via the Angle Gabriel ,inspirational trance, dreams.. |
that is such a gullible RUBBISH. only brain washed go with such unquestionable statements..
look at this nonsense dear Querozayna and you expect us to believe , God, Allah the supreme/superforce has nothing to do but giving surahs to public on This Rascal's personal life?
| Quote: |
(Sura 33:2 "O Prophet! Say to thy consorts: 'If it be that ye desire the life of this world and its glitter then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner.'
(Sura 33:30) "O Consorts of the Prophet if any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah."
(Sura 33:37) "....Fear Allah. Then when Zayad had dissolved his marriage with her (Zainab) we joined her in marriage to thee: in order that there may be no difficulty to the believers in the matter of marriage of the wives of their adopted sons...." |
That book is copy pasted by the paid writers in the first three caliphas time and it contins 30 to 40% of Mohammad's stupidity to support his personal life and his messengership..
yeezevee |
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Apple Pie
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 823
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings Querozayna,
| Querozayna wrote: |
3.31 Say: if you are, you love “allah”, so (if) you follow me, “allah” he will love you and will certainly forgive you from your sins, and “allah” (is) the most protecting one, ever merciful.
With regard to the above ayat.Whenever an ayat (or phrasal sentence in an ayat) in the Quran starts with the imperative 'say' it is clear who is saying what to whom. When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) recieved Quranic revelation which started with 'say' then it is the Prophet who is being commanded by God/Allah to say something to his followers (muslims). So really context is not needed to dicipher who the 'me' is in ayat 3.31. The 'me' in this case is clearly The Prophet Muhammed (1st person case) as he is being commanded to speak "if you love allah,,then follow me..." |
Context is always required in order to get the complete picture of what is being stated…
| Quote: |
| I'm no expert on the Gospel so I dont know if this ayat is paralleling accounts of Jesus and his 'father'. And if it is paralleling the Gospel, this does not mean the 'me' in ayat 3.31 is refering to Jesus, firstly, and foremostly for the reason mentioned above. Secondly so what if it is? The Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is also a messenger of God/Allah who shared the same form of relationship with God/Allah and had the the role to perform as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). |
So…
Jesus & “Muhammad” had equal roles…?
| Quote: |
| All the Prophets of God/Allah were sent to be followed and obeyed as a means to gaining the love of God/Allah. Muslims should accept the terms of Jesus and 'the Father', so long as this is not part of the Christian trinitarian concept of God but rather - Jesus the Prophet of God/Allah and God, the 'Father'. If memory serves, in Islam, although the name 'Father' is not an accepted name for God/Allah it may be acceptable for a human to refer to God/Allah as 'Father' but as a metaphor in the sense of a distinct and unique creator and sustainer. |
The Koran totally and completely acknowledges the Biblical concept of the Trinity…
| Quote: |
| Jesus Christ (pbuh) in the Quran is specifically mentioned in the Quran by the name of Isa or 'Isa son of Maryum (the Virgin Mary)'. |
Not exactly…
The authors who penned the Koranic text also refer to Him as, “The Messiah”, “The Word”; “The Spirit”; “The Messenger”; “The Truth” i.e. a name for “allah”; etc, etc…
| Quote: |
| As far as I know the name Isa is even mentioned more times in the Quran than the name Muhummad (or Ahmad - which is a variant form of the same name) - sorry I dont know how many times if any Jesus is mentioned via pronoun but it is pretty unequivocal when the Prophets Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) are being referred to in the Quran. |
As a proper name, yes, “Jesus” occurs substantially more times in the Koran that His attribute of “Muhammad”.
Although, the major theme of the Koran is actually a Christian one, and revolves around Jesus.
The Koran is simply loaded with Jesus’ attributes.
Even Suras are named after Jesus’ attributes…
Consider the classic Arabic definition of Jesus…
عِيسَى = “eesa”
“eesa” definition:
Plural. Proper name; Jesus. Having a white color inclining towards black or reddish white, or white. Whiteness mixed with somewhat of red hue; whiteness in which is a mixture of clearness with slight darkness; or yellowish whiteness.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, p. 2210
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 396 - 398
Even Jesus’ name is a clear indicator that He is the sacrificial Lamb.
Plural
White
Red
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| 3.32 Say: obey “allah”, and The Messenger, so if they turned away, so certainly “allah” he does not love the disbelievers. |
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| With regard to the above verse.I would like to say this. I think you have just demonstrated the problem of trying to understand the Quran by interpreting an interpretation. And it is one of the wonders of the Divine religion of Islam that we still have the original revelation in its pure and unadulterated form so that we can understand it properly and truely in contrast to the Christians who have lost thier original Gospel. |
Christians understand their scripture set infinitely better than Muslims for the fact that they are not afraid to exegete their scriptures.
Muslims, on the other hand, are not encouraged to exegete their scripture set, and, as such, are told to hold to the opinion of Islam….and basically not to think for themselves in the matter of faith…
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| By trying to understand the Quran by analysing an english interpretation you can inadvertantly become oblivious to factors essential in comprehending its true meaning thus leading you to misunderstand it. For instance in the arabic language there could be a peculiarity specific to it where for example when there is a 'chain of command' (so to speak) following a word to obey then the first in the chain has a higher rank. I'm not saying this is the case here but just pointing out a shortcomming of trying to understand the Quran they way you are trying to. |
Who is analyzing an “English interpretation”…?
The classic Arabic is the language being considered when conveying the message into English.
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| Anyway for argument sake, you suggest that Islam raises the status of the Prophet Muhammad to that of God/Allah because the Quran commands muslims to 'obey Allah AND the Messenger'. |
Not at all…
Islam does not raise their “prophet” to deity status – their book of faith does.
Islam’s idea of “Muhammad” is in diametric opposition to what their book of faith states.
Simply put, the “Muhammad” of Islam is not the “Muhammad” of the Koran.
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| God/Allah has chosen His method of communicating His guidance to Mankind via Prophets and Messengers of His choosing. The role of God's/Allah's messengers is to relay His commands and guidance, and so therefore by obeying His Messenger's you are obeying God this does not mean by obeying His messengers you are turning them into dieties. A deity is something that is worshipped not something that is obeyed, you obey your boss or your teacher but that does not make them your god. |
Hence, you have come full-circle in your understanding of who the Koranic “Muhammad” really is by the “worshipping” and “praising” that, according to the Koran, is reserved only for deity….of which, the term “Muhammad” – referring to a man, can only be raised to deity status.
I believe your confusion is that you have been jaded by the Islamic perception of who “Muhammad” is...rather than the original intent of who the Koran states that He is…
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68.4 And certainly as perhaps you (are of) great moral character.
Again you have too look at how the Quran was revealed, then it is clear who this is referring to. |
We can see how it was revealed…
It was copied from the Holy Bible.
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| The Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) received Divine Revelation directly, via the Angle Gabriel ,inspirational trance, dreams. |
This is the stance of Islam.
Could you please demonstrate this in Islam’s book of faith…?...thanks…
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| So if we see this ayat being communicated to the Prophet Muhammed from God/Allah i.e. Allah/God is saying to His Prophet "and certainly as perhaps you (are of) great moral character", then it is clear who the 'you' (2nd person). |
This ayah is not a communication to “Muhammad”….i.e. Jesus…
Rather, it is a communication from “Muhammad”…i.e. Jesus, to John…just as it is numerous other Suras that have copied the Book of Revelation.
Thanks for your comments…they are appreciated… |
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sparky
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi Apple Pie,
How can Mohammed be Jesus when in 61.6 Jesus refers to one who will come after him as 'Ahmad'?
61.6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!"
Y Ali
Cheers,
sparky
_________________
"When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it."
A A Milne |
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XXX
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 11079
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Hi Apple Pie.
Just curious as to how you managed to reach this conclusion?
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| The Koran totally and completely acknowledges the Biblical concept of the Trinity… |
Where does the Quran support such a statement?
Thanks. |
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ben malik3
Joined: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: |
Hi Apple Pie,
How can Mohammed be Jesus when in 61.6 Jesus refers to one who will come after him as 'Ahmad'?
61.6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!"
Y Ali
Cheers,
sparky |
It is not about Jesus, but about Jesus' prophecy of the Spirit's advent as recorded in John 14-16:
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And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" S. 61:6 Y. Ali
Muslims have assumed — without hesitation — that this is another name given to Muhammad. Since the Quran mentions quite a few prophets and messengers by name, we ask the following questions:
1. Who is Ahmad? If you say he is Muhammad how do you know this?
2. Since no other passage refers to Muhammad as Ahmad, how do you know that this name is not actually a description of some other personality or figure?
3. In fact, according to Muslims Ahmad means "Praised One." Note, for instance, how Pickthall renders Sura 61:6:
… and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One…
Since the name Ahmad means Praised One wouldn’t it be blasphemous to say that this name is given to a mere, fallible human being?
4. Doesn’t it make more sense that this is a title referring to the Holy Spirit of God who, according to both the Holy Bible and Quran, is also Deity?
5. In light of this, how can you prove that this isn’t simply a descriptive noun describing not a human prophet to come, but rather the coming of the Holy Spirit which Jesus mentioned in the Gospels? (Cf. John 7:38-39; 14:16-17; 15:26-27; 16:7-15; Acts 1:5, 8; 2:1-4, 25-33).
The Muslim may claim that Sura 61:6 must be referring to a human agent, a human prophet, since the word messenger (rasul) is used. The problem with this logic is that there is another place in the Quran where Allah’s Spirit is expressly said to be a messenger from the Lord:
And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place; So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man. She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent God, if you are one guarding (against evil). He said: I am only an apostle of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy. S. 19:16-19 Shakir
Some may say that Jesus was referring to another human envoy like himself, not to an immaterial entity like God’s Spirit, on the basis that this other messenger would be like Christ. First, nothing in the text indicates the kind of messenger Jesus supposedly had in mind (we say supposedly since the Quran does not report the words of the real, historical Jesus, but actually distorts them). Second, this assumes that Jesus was merely a human messenger when in fact the Quran says he was more than that. The Quran says that Jesus was a spirit who already existed with Allah prior to his descent into the womb of the blessed virgin Mary:
O ye people of the Book! overstep not bounds in your religion; and of God, speak only truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed into Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from himself (ruhun minhu). Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not, "Three:" (there is a Trinity) - Forbear - it will be better for you. God is only one God! Far be it from His glory that He should have a son! His, whatever is in the Heavens, and whatever is in the Earth! And God is a sufficient Guardian. S. 4:171 Rodwell
Note the similarities between this reference and the one above, the one from Sura 19. Jesus, much like the Spirit, came from Allah; and the Spirit, much like Jesus, appeared as a man! Furthermore, both of them are called the Apostles of Allah!
Again, in light of the foregoing how can a Muslim prove that Jesus wasn’t referring to God’s Holy Spirit as the messenger who was to come after him?
For those interested in reading the evidence from the Quran that shows that the Holy Spirit is God, please read the following articles:
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/gabriel.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/t5_73.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/spirit1.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/spirit2.htm
And here are some articles regarding the use and identity of Ahmad:
http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol2/9b.html#p370
http://answering-islam.org/Index/A/ahmad.html
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Taken from:
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Incoherence/unintelligible.html
Jesus also said that the Spirit is another Comforter/Paraclete (John 14:16), implying that he is the other one as attested by 1 John 2:1 which uses the same word Paraclete to describe Jesus.
This provides additional corroboration for Apple's theory since what we seem to have here in the Quran is a corrupted or, perhaps, hidden Christian message which identified Jesus and the Spirit that he sent as the Praised One. |
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Ben
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 25
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Taken from:
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Incoherence/unintelligible.html
Jesus also said that the Spirit is another Comforter/Paraclete (John 14:16), implying that he is the other one as attested by 1 John 2:1 which uses the same word Paraclete to describe Jesus.
This provides additional corroboration for Apple's theory since what we
seem to have here in the Quran is a corrupted or, perhaps, hidden Christian message which identified Jesus and the Spirit that he sent as the Praised One. |
I am writing this response purely to the claims made in this thread that the Quran agrees with the Bible. I therefore ask that we stick to this topic and not sidetrack.
ApplePie,
Could you please give us your input and give us your word by word exegis of the following verses, and explain how, in your mind; these are in agreement with the Bible. I am not here to rubbish the Bible because I respect your right to your beliefs, I simply want your understanding of the following verses and how this relates to your perception of the Quran agreeing with Jesus's divinity.
I understand the exegesis that you have done on a lot of verses before (like Surat Najm) have multiple meanings, and Allah says in the Quran that with certain ayah's; none can know their true meaning but Allah. But of course, the verses I quote below can have no doubt in any ones mind as to their meaning.
Other Questions:
Why inspire Muhammad if the Bible is the true word?
What motivations would the Holy Spirit have for misleading 1.4 Billion Muslims away from your Lord Jesus Christ?
I would like to know, that if you speculate that the Holy Spirit inspired Muhammad, and we can assume that the Holy Spirit would not want any conflicts in interest; where in your Bible do the following verses corroborate. I am not being sarcastic, I have never read the Bible in my life.
Thanks in advance:
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not
4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs
5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden
23:91 No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!
42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
43:64 "Verily, Allah! He is my Lord (God) and your Lord (God). So worship Him (Alone). This is the (only) Straight Path (i.e. Allahs religion of true Islamic Monotheism)."
And most importantly:
112:1 Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allah, (the) One.
112:2 "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
112:3 "He begets not, nor was He begotten; "
112:4 "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
Thankyou.
_________________
I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah |
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ben malik3
Joined: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
ApplePie,
Could you please give us your input and give us your word by word exegis of the following verses, and explain how, in your mind; these are in agreement with the Bible. I am not here to rubbish the Bible because I respect your right to your beliefs, I simply want your understanding of the following verses and how this relates to your perception of the Quran agreeing with Jesus's divinity. |
I will give my two cents worth, noting that my views do not necessarily represent what Apple Pie may believe since he may not agree with what I have to say. I don't think that Apple's comments necessarily presuppose that the Bible is inspired truth. Rather, I see him attempting to document the purely human origin of the Quran, i.e. that the Quran is nothing more than a plagiarization of the Jewish, Christian, pagan religions for Arabic speakers. In fact, I think he is trying to show that the Quran was originally the Christian message written in Arabic for Arabic speakers that was later corrupted by the Muslims.
| Quote: |
I understand the exegesis that you have done on a lot of verses before (like Surat Najm) have multiple meanings, and Allah says in the Quran that with certain ayah's; none can know their true meaning but Allah. But of course, the verses I quote below can have no doubt in any ones mind as to their meaning. |
What makes your remarks rather interesting is that this claim of the Quran (Q. 3:7) was actually made in response to Christians using specific Quranic statements to prove that Jesus is divine! For the details please go here:
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sura3_7.htm
| Quote: |
Other Questions:
Why inspire Muhammad if the Bible is the true word? |
Who said anything about being inspired? It is a matter of making available the Christian message in Arabic for the Arabs. Or, it is an issue of plagiarizing biblical material in order to present oneself as a true prophet. Again, one doesn't have to believe that the Bible is true to see how the Quran plagiarzied it or tried to present its message in the Arabic vernacular:
Yet before it was the Book of Moses for a model and a mercy; and this is a Book confirming, in Arabic tongue, to warn the evildoers, and good tidings to the good-doers. S. 46:12
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What motivations would the Holy Spirit have for misleading 1.4 Billion Muslims away from your Lord Jesus Christ?
I would like to know, that if you speculate that the Holy Spirit inspired Muhammad, and we can assume that the Holy Spirit would not want any conflicts in interest; where in your Bible do the following verses corroborate. I am not being sarcastic, I have never read the Bible in my life. |
I am having a hard time with this point of yours since your comments presuppose that a) God exists and b) that Muhammad was inspired. As I said, one doesn't have to believe God exists to see how the Quran is a garbled version of the Bible and other preexisting materials.
But for one who assumes that God exists then the answer is simple: The Spirit didn't deceive, but rather Satan did since the Bible warns against his attempts of perverting the Christian message in order to mislead people away from the truth (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:2-4, 13-15; Galatians 1 -9).
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4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not |
Actually, there is a good article showing that if one presupposes that the original Quran was written in Aramaic or Syriac before it was ever written in Arabic that this actually proves that Christ was cruficied:
http://www.aina.org/ata/20060526100224.htm
| Quote: |
4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs
5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden
23:91 No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him! |
None of these texts are addressing historic Christian beliefs, but either are distortions of them or are addressing heretical forms of them:
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/challenge_trinity.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Meherally/mehB6_0.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Meherally/mehB3_0.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Tafsir/005.072.html
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/quran_trinity.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/t5_73.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/marytrin.htm
In fact, S. 4:171 presupposes the Christian belief in Jesus' prehuman existence, more specifically his Deity, since it calls him God's Word and Spirit.
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42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
43:64 "Verily, Allah! He is my Lord (God) and your Lord (God). So worship Him (Alone). This is the (only) Straight Path (i.e. Allahs religion of true Islamic Monotheism)."
And most importantly:
112:1 Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allah, (the) One.
112:2 "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
112:3 "He begets not, nor was He begotten; "
112:4 "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
Thankyou. |
Again, at the heart of Christian belief is that God is one and that he alone is to be worshiped. The problem is that Muslims assume that God can only be one if he is an absolute singularity, whereas Christians view God's oneness as a unity that consists of three divine persons as well as a host of attributes. This is similar with the Muslim faith since Muslims accept that God is one even in light of the fact that his oneness doesn't exclude him from having multiple attributes, i.e. he actually exists as a unity within multiplicity. If God can be one while having a multiplicity of attributes then why are Christians being accused of polytheism for believing that God is a unity of multple persons? |
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