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Zorasta_Russ
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 364
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 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:11 am Post subject: Nadir Ahmed's Iram miracle |
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I was reading http://examinethetruth.com/ahmed_response1.htm and I couldn't help but post my opinion. I will focus on the debate concerning the the city of Iram, from Qur'an
089.007
YUSUFALI: Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,
PICKTHAL: With many-columned Iram,
SHAKIR: (The people of) Aram, possessors of lofty buildings
Be aware that Nadir Ahmed selectively quotes from Yusuf Ali's Qur'an translation and ignors the other translations.
Here is summary of Nadir Ahmed's version of the debate.
| Quote: |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
| 1. The Quran mentions a city named Iram, and this city was later discovered 1400 years later during an archaeological find. |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| The destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants. |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
if that logic was true... then that means we have a record of EVERY destroyed city from the time of Adam, which would go back BILLIONS of years ago, I would like to ask Ali Sina to please provide for us that list  |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| Who said no books prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram? |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
All researchers agree on this. National Geographics did an article on Iram, and the only reference they came up with which mentioned this city was the Quran.
One of the critics of the Qur'an (Wellhausen) stated that Iram was a fictional place. If Ali knows of a book before the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share
One of the critics of the Qur'an (Wellhausen) stated that Iram was a fictional place. If Ali knows of a book before the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share
Please also read what I wrote about this "borrowing" allegation that I just wrote above. But, I really dont have a problem with this hypothetical possiblity, because when i calculate the probability of SELECTIVELY CHOOSING the name of a city which the world does not know from a book, only to be discovered 1400 years later through archaelogical find... the number will kill you... and to add insult to injury, I will multiply that
number with 1/2 (from the bee)
math is a bi@#@ isn't it? |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| "Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books." |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
| What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina, by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar just like Robert Morey |
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http://examinethetruth.com/ahmed_response1.ht
No disrepect to Ali Sina but if this debate summarized above is accurate then the two debaters did not do their research.
First of all Qur'an never said that Iram was a city. Here is the verse is Arabic.
89:07
إِرَمَ ذَاتِ الْعِمَادِ
إِرَمَ = Iram
ذَاتِ = dhaat = possessors
الْعِمَادِ = el Imad-e = of the pillars
Iram was mentioned in the Bible before the Qur’an.
إِرَمَ (= Iram ) transliterated into Hebrew characters appears as ארם in the Hebrew Old Testament, and it is pronounced as Aram.
According to the Old Testament Aram was the son of Shem and the grandson of Noah. Aram was supposedly the ancestor of the Arameans or the Syrians. The language that the Syrians spoke was Aramaic and Aram was also the name of the Syrian Nation. Therefore The Qur’an did not mention a city that was forgotten by men during Mohammed’s time and then discovered 1400 years later.
Why do Muslims who take a scientific approach in interpreting the Qur’an and discover imagined miracles ignore the Tafsir of early Islamic Scholars?
| For example Ibn Katheer wrote: |
They were the descendants of `Ad bin Iram bin `Aws bin Sam bin Nuh. This was said by Ibn Ishaq. |
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=89&tid=58165
Notice Ibn Ishaq’s genealogy differs from that of Genesis in the Old Testament in only one detail by adding the name ‘Aws. In the O T Noah(Arabic Nuh) was father of Shem( Arabic Sam) father of Aram. And Aram was Iram according to Ibn Katheer and Ibn Ishaq.
Mr Nadir Ahmed’s miracle is not a miracle at all. If he doesn’t remove his Iram debate from his website then his miracle should be declared a hoax.
Regards
Zorasta Russ
Last edited by Zorasta_Russ on Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Phedippedes
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 8092
Location: Not on FFI anymore
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Don't hold your breath for Nadir to actually start caring for the truth. He is neither the most honest person nor the most intellectually gifted person you will find.
Thanks for the research. Good job. |
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Quu
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 290
Location: Metroplex Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Here is my view on this !
Ok so science shows that the city was destroyed in 100 - 300 a.d.
Now quran tells us that between Jesus and mohammad there was not a prophet .
Yet the city was destroyed AFTER Jesus .
So the city would have been destroyed without having been warned ! Which according to quran cities are not destroyed without being warned first .
So there is actually an error if any thing ! |
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Who Me?
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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You're all wrong.
Wikipedia has the answer.
(Qur'an,89:6- Do you not see what your Lord did with 'Ad-Iram of the Columns whose like was not created in any land?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubar
"A more recent discovery occurred when archaeologists examined photographs taken of the Persian Gulf Coast from the space shuttle Challenger in 1984. These photos revealed some buried cities along the ancient frankincense trade route dating from 2800 BC and 100 BC. One, on the eastern edge of Oman in the Dhofar province, proved to be a city known as Ubar, which is usually identified with Iram."
The city of Iram also known as Ubar was built deep into the desert over a well. It literally disappeared into a hole in the ground when the underground cave it was built over collapsed.
The name Iram was forgotten except in the Qur'an, but the name Ubar was remembered in legends.
In 1990 it was rediscovered.
This is held up as proof of the Qur'ans accuracy.
So yes the city did exist, but so what. Why shouldn't stories of such disasters live on for centuries?
I've never come across a hadith in which people asked "just what is this city of Iram? I have never heard of it!". So it's fair to presume that the people of Mecca were well aware of the story. This also applies to the other cities.
_________________
Simplicity is genius.
And I am very simple. |
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Quu
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 290
Location: Metroplex Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Who Me? wrote: |
You're all wrong.
Wikipedia has the answer.
(Qur'an,89:6- Do you not see what your Lord did with 'Ad-Iram of the Columns whose like was not created in any land?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubar
"A more recent discovery occurred when archaeologists examined photographs taken of the Persian Gulf Coast from the space shuttle Challenger in 1984. These photos revealed some buried cities along the ancient frankincense trade route dating from 2800 BC and 100 BC. One, on the eastern edge of Oman in the Dhofar province, proved to be a city known as Ubar, which is usually identified with Iram."
The city of Iram also known as Ubar was built deep into the desert over a well. It literally disappeared into a hole in the ground when the underground cave it was built over collapsed.
The name Iram was forgotten except in the Qur'an, but the name Ubar was remembered in legends.
In 1990 it was rediscovered.
This is held up as proof of the Qur'ans accuracy.
So yes the city did exist, but so what. Why shouldn't stories of such disasters live on for centuries?
I've never come across a hadith in which people asked "just what is this city of Iram? I have never heard of it!". So it's fair to presume that the people of Mecca were well aware of the story. This also applies to the other cities. |
Thank you for the reply !
Well let us accept that it was a city then .
Now if we accept the archaeological explanation, then it says that it was destroyed in 100 - 300 a.d. Only quran says that there must be a prophet to warn people first . Yet if there was no prophet between the time of Jesus and mohammad which muslims claim, then it is inaccurate !
Also there is one hadeeth that shows a conversation between a Jew and another Jew and they both spoke of iram and thamud. So it was known at that time ! |
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fire-snake
Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 2184
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Baal
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 4418
Location: Egypt
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Zorasta_Russ does not contradict WhoMe.
Zorasta stating that the Old Testament knew of this city. Which actually remove a lot of credibility from the koran being original. Out of the hundreds of city that were lost, Allah had to repeat himself.
Whome states that the city had a slightly different name and also gave more information as to how the city might have dissapeared.
Both stories complement each other.
_________________
"Kad Kazab Alayna Muhammed"
Islam is Not Genetically Inherited from your Parents.
"Child brides in non-Western society is about love, marriage and husband and wife bonds." - AMuslim arguing for his Nabey Al-Saleh |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Nadir Ahmed's Iram miracle |
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| Zorasta_Russ wrote: |
I was reading http://examinethetruth.com/ahmed_response1.htm and I couldn't help but post my opinion. I will focus on the debate concerning the the city of Iram, from Qur'an
089.007
YUSUFALI: Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,
PICKTHAL: With many-columned Iram,
SHAKIR: (The people of) Aram, possessors of lofty buildings
Be aware that Nadir Ahmed selectively quotes from Yusuf Ali's Qur'an translation and ignors the other translations.
Here is summary of Nadir Ahmed's version of the debate.
| Quote: |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
| 1. The Quran mentions a city named Iram, and this city was later discovered 1400 years later during an archaeological find. |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| The destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants. |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
| if that logic was true... then that means we have a record of EVERY destroyed city from the time of Adam, which would go back BILLIONS of years ago, I would like to ask Ali Sina to please provide for us that list |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| Who said no books prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram? |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
All researchers agree on this. National Geographics did an article on Iram, and the only reference they came up with which mentioned this city was the Quran.
One of the critics of the Qur'an (Wellhausen) stated that Iram was a fictional place. If Ali knows of a book before the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share
One of the critics of the Qur'an (Wellhausen) stated that Iram was a fictional place. If Ali knows of a book before the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share
Please also read what I wrote about this "borrowing" allegation that I just wrote above. But, I really dont have a problem with this hypothetical possiblity, because when i calculate the probability of SELECTIVELY CHOOSING the name of a city which the world does not know from a book, only to be discovered 1400 years later through archaelogical find... the number will kill you... and to add insult to injury, I will multiply that
number with 1/2 (from the bee)
math is a bi@#@ isn't it? |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| "Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books." |
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
| What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina, by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar just like Robert Morey |
|
http://examinethetruth.com/ahmed_response1.ht
No disrepect to Ali Sina but if this debate summarized above is accurate then the two debaters did not do their research.
First of all Qur'an never said that Iram was a city. Here is the verse is Arabic.
89:07
إِرَمَ ذَاتِ الْعِمَادِ
إِرَمَ = Iram
ذَاتِ = dhaat = possessors
الْعِمَادِ = el Imad-e = of the pillars
Iram was mentioned in the Bible before the Qur’an.
إِرَمَ (= Iram ) transliterated into Hebrew characters appears as ארם in the Hebrew Old Testament, and it is pronounced as Aram.
According to the Old Testament Aram was the son of Shem and the grandson of Noah. Aram was supposedly the ancestor of the Arameans or the Syrians. The language that the Syrians spoke was Aramaic and Aram was also the name of the Syrian Nation. Therefore The Qur’an did not mention a city that was forgotten by men during Mohammed’s time and then discovered 1400 years later.
Why do Muslims who take a scientific approach in interpreting the Qur’an and discover imagined miracles ignore the Tafsir of early Islamic Scholars?
| For example Ibn Katheer wrote: |
They were the descendants of `Ad bin Iram bin `Aws bin Sam bin Nuh. This was said by Ibn Ishaq. |
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=89&tid=58165
Notice Ibn Ishaq’s genealogy differs from that of Genesis in the Old Testament in only one detail by adding the name ‘Aws. In the O T Noah(Arabic Nuh) was father of Shem( Arabic Sam) father of Aram. And Aram was Iram according to Ibn Katheer and Ibn Ishaq.
Mr Nadir Ahmed’s miracle is not a miracle at all. If he doesn’t remove his Iram debate from his website then his miracle should be declared a hoax.
Regards
Zorasta Russ |
Hello
are you an idiot or what?
it seems you know nothing about Arabic
well, let me expose you with ease
the verse said "Iram dhaat Al Imad"
ذَاتِ = dhaat = possessors , as you know
but what you dont bloody know is, dhaat is feminine i.e. it has to be refrring to a feminine and sure if Iram was the son of Shem and the grandson of Noah then the words dhaat mst be masculine = "Zu"
therefore it can't be a male human mister ignorant, unless you can prove to us that Iram was the DAUIGHTER of Shem and the granddaughter of Noah, LOL
Now let me tell you a city in Arabic is fiminine
hahahahahaha, your ignornace have been exposed
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quu wrote: |
Thank you for the reply !
Well let us accept that it was a city then .
Now if we accept the archaeological explanation, then it says that it was destroyed in 100 - 300 a.d. Only quran says that there must be a prophet to warn people first . Yet if there was no prophet between the time of Jesus and mohammad which muslims claim, then it is inaccurate !
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Obviously you are not aware that Allah said in the Quran that He sent many other messengers but He decided not to tell us their stories in the Quran, so how do you know that within that alleged period there was no messenger sent? |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| fire-snake wrote: |
| Quu wrote: |
| So there is actually an error if any thing ! |
Well that is Islam my friend.... |
LOL
what a dumb and smerky comment
as if you know what Islam is,
face the truth darling, you are still searching for Islam and I know it  |
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Sundried Atheist
Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 1385
Location: BANNED FOR 4 WEEKS
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Messengers?
You mean like pizza delivery boys?
_________________
Humanity will never know peace until we reject the very concept of a creator god. Metaphysical Naturalism should become the only acceptable explanation regarding the origin of the Cosmos and the origin of the living world. |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Sundried Atheist wrote: |
Messengers?
You mean like pizza delivery boys? |
sort of,
therefore you must eat the pizza |
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fire-snake
Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 2184
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
| fire-snake wrote: |
| Quu wrote: |
| So there is actually an error if any thing ! |
Well that is Islam my friend.... |
LOL
what a dumb and smerky comment |
a dumb and smerky comments come from a dumb source. Islam. Islam is dumb and dumber...
| Quote: |
| as if you know what Islam is, |
I know what Islam is, Do not teach me what Islam is!!
| Quote: |
| face the truth darling, you are still searching for Islam and I know it |
Innaillahi wa innaillahi rojiuun.. searching for Islame? I dont have to search Islam. Its already infront of me and I'm breathing in it.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEl_U_-KJ70 |
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AntiShariaProLiberalism
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 926
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
| Quu wrote: |
Thank you for the reply !
Well let us accept that it was a city then .
Now if we accept the archaeological explanation, then it says that it was destroyed in 100 - 300 a.d. Only quran says that there must be a prophet to warn people first . Yet if there was no prophet between the time of Jesus and mohammad which muslims claim, then it is inaccurate !
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Obviously you are not aware that Allah said in the Quran that He sent many other messengers but He decided not to tell us their stories in the Quran, so how do you know that within that alleged period there was no messenger sent? |
hahahaha how convenient. I almost fell out my chair at that. every day brings a new hilarious islamic discovery. |
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MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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ahmed....why wouldnt he tell given that it would be so important???
Why dont you tell us why.....I ask that you give us the "full story" ahmed |
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