|
Attention: Year 2009 is here
Wishing a very Happy New Year to all members of FFI. Our new and improved site is ready. To visit main site, click at faithfreedom.org and to visit our new forum, click at forum09.faithfreedom.org and register again. Do not worry about your old forum posts and PM, everything is saved here till 31st December, 2008 for future references.
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
natural_person
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 671
Location: USA
|
 Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: |
 |
|
XXX,
A Saudi prince, one of the old ones, gave a televised interview about two years ago. He was asked to explain the misery suffered by the majority of people, economic, social, slavery still existant, etc, etc...
He did't deny it . He said something about his daughter wanting to drive. Then he said that even the Royals cannot change the view of the all-powerful religious leaders.
And then he said something extaordinary... "You people compare our life with your life... How can a society advance in a few generations? How to jump from 13th century to the 21st in such a short time ?" (Not an exact quote)
He had in mind the explosion of modern buildings in a few cities, the fact that people love computers and cell phones, and cars... BUT their mind and habits are still in the 13th century.
You must agree.
In regard to habits please see my post in
The effect of islam on muslims.
Would you agree that daily life is a collection of habits ?
_________________
INTELLIGENT doesn't mean SMART...
SMART doesn't mean WISE... seek WISDOM
Want to help ?
http://citizenwarrior2.blogspot.com/2007/09/simplest-way-to-fight-terrorism.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| natural_person wrote: |
| He had in mind the explosion of modern buildings in a few cities, the fact that people love computers and cell phones, and cars... BUT their mind and habits are still in the 13th century. |
13th century? They never made it out of the 7th century. In fact other people had more advanced societies hundreds of years prior to that.
_________________
</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natural_person
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 671
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is there a consensus on what society was the MOST ADVANCED overall ?
I love the architecture, engineering, and judicial system of the Romans... Wow !!
Muslim societies ? Come on! Give them the 13th century , cannot be that bad !
_________________
INTELLIGENT doesn't mean SMART...
SMART doesn't mean WISE... seek WISDOM
Want to help ?
http://citizenwarrior2.blogspot.com/2007/09/simplest-way-to-fight-terrorism.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
secularmindedhindu
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1228
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| XXX wrote: |
| If this is the same train incident, i am thinking of then, i know that wasn't true at all. What happened in Gujrat was a deliberate act, to murder muslims. It can be called a genocide, because it was planned and then executed. |
Muslims look for oppertunities to massacare Hindus as a part of their religious conviction to get rid of non-believers. All the bomb blasts have been done by the Muslims. But after the massacare of the innocent Hindu pilgrims in a train in Godhra station, there was spontaneous outrage. The riots that followed were a result of this outrage which was created by the action of the Muslims. It was not planned as it was a response to the massacre of Hindus, including women and children. Anyway, I do not support any of the killings.
| XXX wrote: |
As for the forceful covnersions and marriages, its unfortunate that it happens, but it is by no means condoned in Islamic law. You cannot force people to become a muslim. You can only be a muslim if you sincerely believe in it and you understand all the conditions of the Shahadat you are reciting.
I do apologise for that, as a muslim, it isn't right by any means. |
It sounds good that you are appologizing. But the real problem lies with the existing Sharia Law in Pakistan. Once a girl is forcibly converted into Islam, she cannot be reverted back to her original religion. Punishment for apostasy according to Sharia Law is death. Even forcible convertions are accepted by the law, What is even more pathetic is that, if a minor girl is forcibly converted to Islam then her non-Muslim parents loose their right to be her gaurdian. Because according to Sharia Law a non-Muslim cannot be the gaurdian of a Muslim. See what kind of discrimination is propagated through Sharia Law!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
XXX: You can only be a muslim if you sincerely believe in it and you understand all the conditions of the Shahadat you are reciting.
I do apologise for that, as a muslim, it isn't right by any means. |
I don' t think YOU UNDERSTAND the meanings of the words in the Shahadat dear XXX., Not only you 99% of the muslims(NOT MUHAMMAD FOLLOWIN MUSLIM CROWD) don't understand the meanings of the words in Shahadat.
yeezevee |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
thanks secular mindedhindu......
mmmm.....and we have boys on this forum talking about how wonderful islam is for women, and that there is no such thing as "forced conversions"
so even forced conversions and that of a minor are accepted by law.....and this is the "true face of islam"
I have a problem with all religious ideology and what it does and causes for innocent human beings secularminded......sadly hindu women suffer too, as all religions are male dominated and all based on "myths and superstitions"
I believe the world will "grow up" and out of religions.....it has soooooo much to answer for in this world, so very much!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
XXX
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 11079
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| secularmindedhindu wrote: |
It sounds good that you are appologizing. But the real problem lies with the existing Sharia Law in Pakistan. Once a girl is forcibly converted into Islam, she cannot be reverted back to her original religion. Punishment for apostasy according to Sharia Law is death. Even forcible convertions are accepted by the law, What is even more pathetic is that, if a minor girl is forcibly converted to Islam then her non-Muslim parents loose their right to be her gaurdian. Because according to Sharia Law a non-Muslim cannot be the gaurdian of a Muslim. See what kind of discrimination is propagated through Sharia Law!!! |
Under Pakistani law or where-ever this place might be, but certainly not Shariah law. Pakistan doesn't rule by Shariah. It is a corrupt country and you can get away with just about anything. And i reiterate what i said, forceful conversions are not allowed. If a proper law system was in place and wasn't so corrupt in most of the places such things happen, it'd be dealt with in the manner it should be.
| Quote: |
| have a problem with all religious ideology and what it does and causes for innocent human beings secularminded......sadly hindu women suffer too, as all religions are male dominated and all based on "myths and superstitions" |
Wonderful, so you don't blame Islam for everything. I was about to wonder, what you were going to blame the loathing Hindus have for having baby girls and aborting 100's of thousands of them each year and husbands treating them like trash if they don't have boys. I would seriously have started questioning your sanity as a person if you had blamed Islam for that too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
XXX I have always said I have problem with all religions, as cannot see how anyone can believe theirs is the "right" one out of the 5000 or so, and religion causes huge problems for this world and heinous harm to countless millions.
No, its not just islam, but islam is to my mind the worst given that the others are not :
- telling me that Im "a dirty kufr".....and immoral and sinful because Im a not believer
- lobbying to have our children DEPRIVED of their childhood and healthy fun pursuits....e.g. music in schools, or boys taught that they are BETTER than girls "just because they are boys and this allah said so" lol
- other religions have grown up....islam hasnt!!! (10,000 seething muslims males over a teddy bear whilst in their country the most appalling backwardness still exists)
- muslims REMAIN SILENT AND ACQUIESCENT when their own are harmed by muslims
- to be a good muslim you are required to be a "submissive slave" and to support very backward harmful thinking
and in islam, by and large girls/women are harmed from birth in many many ways "as a direct result of the deviant teachings".....YET THEY NEVER GOT A CHOICE BUT TO BE MUSLIM, OR NOT
its a man made hoax.......and no one, but no one, has offered me one shred of information that would make me think otherwise......there is ZILCH to support it, and as for this koran having "errors" in it that funnily enough match the beliefs of people in that era, just clinches the provable deceit to people, whom are then commanded not to question.....NOT TO QUESTION PROVABLE DECEIT!!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
secularmindedhindu
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1228
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MsWesterner wrote: |
I have a problem with all religious ideology and what it does and causes for innocent human beings secularminded......sadly hindu women suffer too, as all religions are male dominated and all based on "myths and superstitions"
I believe the world will "grow up" and out of religions.....it has soooooo much to answer for in this world, so very much!!! |
I would not deny this problem. Yes over centuries women has been discriminated due to social attitudes and religious practices. But, unlike many other religions Hinduism is dynamic in nature and has the ability to adapt with time. In the 18th and 19th century there has been many religious leaders and social reformers who have spoke against discrimination in all forms. Thanks to their painstaking effort a lot of laws that were discriminatory for the women has been changed. The laws of inheritance have been changed. A woman can inherit equal share as her male counterpart. Previously the Hindu widows could not remarry. But laws have been passed to allow widow re-marriage. Polygamy has been banned and has been declared as a crime. Previously, under Hindu Law there was no concept of divorce. But now the divorce has been accepted by the Law to relieve a couple from hardship. Either, husband and wife can together file for a mutual divorce. Or, one of the parties has to approach the court for divorce on certain specified grounds. A husband cannot divorce his wife according to his will. A woman has the right to adopt a child on her own.
Changing the laws in favour of women would not change the conditions of the women overnight, because old habits die hard. Old attitudes and social customs take time to change. But changing the laws is certainly the first step in the right direction.
Again another problem was literacy of the females. Most of the women a century ago did not know how to read or write. But now there are schools for girls as well as there are co-ed schools. Those who can afford education sure are sending their girls to school. More females are having education and more women is entering into the workforce. Now there are opportunities for the women to earn. However, there is still a long way to go.
Hinduism is one of the religions where gods and goddesses both are worshipped. The practice of worshipping goddesses is a proof that the religion has held women in high esteem. Even some of the verses of the religious texts were written by learned women thousands of years ago before the birth of Christ. Women used to participate in the religious rituals.
During ancient times Hinduism had given some rights as well as freedom to the women. The real bad days of Hinduism came during the middle ages. The Hindus lost their freedom and were ruled by the Muslim rulers. They converted and killed a lot of Hinduism. Those who remained Hindu became very conservative. From that time the freedom of women were restricted. There was lack of progressive thinkers in Hinduism. All kinds of superstitions crept in. The lack of political freedom, religious persecution by the Muslim rulers all played a part of it.
Thanks god, the middle age is gone. Things are improving, but slowly.
If someone does not like any kind of religion, then it is a personal opinion. It cannot be denied that religion has been used over the centuries to oppress women. I respect all other religions that are willing to respect mine. Even atheists are also welcome. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
secularmindedhindu
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1228
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| XXX wrote: |
| Wonderful, so you don't blame Islam for everything. I was about to wonder, what you were going to blame the loathing Hindus have for having baby girls and aborting 100's of thousands of them each year and husbands treating them like trash if they don't have boys. I would seriously have started questioning your sanity as a person if you had blamed Islam for that too. |
Aborting unborn child is one thing, but in Islamic societies honour killings are rampant. Thousands of girls and women are killed for the honour of the family. This shows that even the honour of the family is more valuable than the life of a female in Muslim societies.
In Pakistan, more than half of the women languishing in jail are innocent and victims of rape. Their only fault is that they have been raped and has not been able to prove that they have been raped. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with you XXX as to how hindu women are treated.......like muslim women they are treated with contempt and disdain, and again we see the CAUSE to be religion
religion is man made......and has so much to answer for in this world and for the harms inflicted on innocent human beings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
secularmindedhindu
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1228
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MsWesterner wrote: |
I agree with you XXX as to how hindu women are treated.......like muslim women they are treated with contempt and disdain, and again we see the CAUSE to be religion
religion is man made......and has so much to answer for in this world and for the harms inflicted on innocent human beings. |
MsWesterner ... I could see a bias against the eastern religion like most of the people have in the west.
Haven't Mormon cult of Chistianity have allowed plural marriages ? Isn't there 30,000 cases of polygamy right there in US ? Isn't child marriage and forced marriage a reality for the girls born in fundamentalist Mormon family ? Isn't Rulon Jeff, who is said to have more than 50 wives have been charged for arranging forced marriages for under age girl in US ?
I could continue...but my point is that in a country there should be law which should be free and fair, treating everyone equally. What I mean to say here is laws at the present time treat Hindu women equally with the males. So if the women are oppressed then those take place by breaking the law. If you say religion is man made, I can understand.
Again you have promptly said that Hindu women are treated with contempt and disdain. Why didn't you mention anything about the western religions? Do you think the condition of the Christian women in Africa very satisfactory? Even among Christians in Africa polygamy is common. Wife beating is accepted by the society and supported by the church. Christian girls have been forced to undergo genital mutilation. Are you aware of this? Please try to be honest here.
See, in cases of Hindu women in India and Christian women in Africa, the suffereings of the women at present is not due to the religion, but rather social attitudes, lack of education, economic conditions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arildno
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 1268
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| secularmindedhindu wrote: |
| MsWesterner wrote: |
I agree with you XXX as to how hindu women are treated.......like muslim women they are treated with contempt and disdain, and again we see the CAUSE to be religion
religion is man made......and has so much to answer for in this world and for the harms inflicted on innocent human beings. |
MsWesterner ... I could see a bias against the eastern religion like most of the people have in the west. |
I don't know about Ms Westerner, but I certainly don't have such a bias.
| Quote: |
Doesn't Mormon cult of Chistianity have allowed plural marriages ? Isn't there 30,000 cases of polygamy right there in US ? |
Indeed. Again, the common denominator is..religion, and unwarranted tolerance of its immoral practices.
| Quote: |
| Isn't child marriage and forced marriage a reality for the girls born in fundamentalist Mormon family ? Isn't Rulon Jeff, who is said to have more than 50 wives have been charged for arranging forced marriages for under age girl in US ? |
Sure enough. See above.
| Quote: |
I could continue...but my point is that in a country there should be law which should be free and fair, treating everyone equally. |
Quite so. And even though historically, that idea first dominated in Western societies that doesn't mean your principles are invalid for other "cultures".
Nor is there any reason to suppose that only Westerners have ever thought along those tracks.
What was historically beneficial in the West to foster those ideas eventually was a separation of temporal and spiritual powers rarely seen elsewhere. Secular authorities in the West jealously guarded their power against the demands of the Church, meaning, for example, that heretics and free-thinkers could live relatively safe as long as they didn't oppose the secular power.
Men like Thomas Hobbes, universally decried as atheists could pursue their intellectual interests because they posed as staunch monarchists, exalting and flattering the secular powers.
There is no reason to regard the secular powers as agents of humanism, but as long as they kept a protective hand over loyal, humanist citizens against the religious thought police, humanism and Enlightenment was allowed to flourish and gradually change society as a whole. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
secularmindedhindu
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1228
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Arildno, I appretiate your above post as it has a secular appeal. I agree there should be a seperation between the church and the state. The voice of reason should not be subdued by mere beliefs. I would like to see the secular education spreading among the masses. I would like to see better economic conditions for the people. Discrimination of any kind should be stopped. Women should have equal rights. As of today, India has ensured that the law provides for Hindu women, their right to vote, right to employment, right to equal pay, right to equal inheritance among many other things. I believe these are all steps in right direction. India has got female Prime Minister as Indira Gandhi and present President is also female. These shows at least improvement in the condition of women. But at the same time I also agree there is a long way to go, specially when it comes to social attitudes. It might take decades if not generations to get rid of all social evils. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arildno
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 1268
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| secularmindedhindu wrote: |
| Arildno, I appretiate your above post as it has a secular appeal. I agree there should be a seperation between the church and the state. The voice of reason should not be subdued by mere beliefs. I would like to see the secular education spreading among the masses. I would like to see better economic conditions for the people. Discrimination of any kind should be stopped. Women should have equal rights. As of today, India has ensured that the law provides for Hindu women, their right to vote, right to employment, right to equal pay, right to equal inheritance among many other things. I believe these are all steps in right direction. India has got female Prime Minister as Indira Gandhi and present President is also female. These shows at least improvement in the condition of women. But at the same time I also agree there is a long way to go, specially when it comes to social attitudes. It might take decades if not generations to get rid of all social evils. |
Perhaps the most pressing issue in Hindu society today is the deplorable effects of a caste system forbidden by law, yet still in force unofficially, particularly in rural districts.
Would you agree to that? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
