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Hector
Joined: 24 May 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: Lane's Lexicon entry on Dahaha |
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LANE'S LEXICON ENTRY ON DAHAHA
Many Islamist apologists attempt to deflect criticism that the Quran promotes the mistaken belief of a flat earth by the word dahaha in 79:30, commonly translated as ‘spread’ or ‘stretched’.
79:30 والارض بعد ذلك دحاها
Transliteration Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha
Literal And the earth/Planet Earth after that He blew and stretched/spread it.
Yusuf Ali And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
Pickthal And after that He spread the earth,
Arberry and the earth-after that He spread it out,
Shakir And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Sarwar After this, He spread out the earth,
Hilali/Khan And after that He spread the earth;
Malik After that He spread out the earth,[30]
Maulana Ali And the earth, He cast it after that.
Free Minds And the land after that He spread out.
Some Islamists have attempted to translated the word dahaha to mean made egg-shaped or like an ‘ostrich egg’.
Khalifa He made the earth egg-shaped.
QXP And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped. ('Dahaha' entails all the meanings rendered (21:30), (41:11)).
| Quote: |
| In Noble Verse 79:30, the Arabic word "dahaha" doesn't mean extended (to a wide expanse). The word literally mean formed in "round shape" or "egg shape"... |
http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_in_islam.htm
Some will also claim that the root word for dahaha is duhiya which means ostrich egg.
http://www.islamicvoice.com/February2006/QuestionHour-DrZakirNaik/?PHPSESSID=c30907389ab7486d8886b1a992e9ae1a
www.islamawareness.net/Science/qms.pdf
This 'dahaha = ostrich egg' apologetic has already been debunked by reference to Arabic dictionaries. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6643&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Nevertheless, many Muslims still cling to the belief that dahaha means an ostrich egg, despite the scientific difficulty this presents in that the earth is an oblate spheroid while the ostrich egg is a prolate spheroid. Thus the earth and the ostrich egg are dissimilar in three dimensions.
A further Islamist apologetic is to point to a game played by Meccans in their attempt to link dahaha with roundness.
| Quote: |
In 79:30, Allah says,
[Transliteration] Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha [79:30]
The key word in the above verse is “dahaha”. In Arabic, there is a phrase, “iza dahaha” which means “when he throws the stones over the ground to the hole”. The hole is called “Udhiyatun”. “Almadahi” signify round stones according to the size of which a hole is dug in the ground in which the stones are thrown in a game. “Almadahi” also signify a round thing made of lead by the throwing of which persons contend together. So there is a signification of ROUNDNESS in the root of the word “dahaha”. According to some etymologists, the word for the “egg of an ostrich” also has the same root as “dahaha”. They also take from this that the earth is of the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Latest science findings confirm that the earth is not exactly spherical but the earth is an ellipsoid, i.e. flattened by its poles,[ just like the shape of an egg of an ostrich].
The Arabic words for “flat” or “level” or “straight shaped” are “sawi” and “almustavi”. There is not a single place in Quran where there is any indication of the earth being “flat” or “straight shaped”. The word “faraash” in 2:22, 51:48; the word “wasia” in 4:97, 29:56, 30:10; the word “mahd” in 20:53, 43:10, 78:6; the word “basaat” in 71:19; the word “suttihat” in 88:20; and the word “tahaaha” in 91:6, all may mean, “to spread”, “to expand” or “to extend” with slight differences in their connotations but none signify the earth being straight-shaped or flat. |
http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk/earth-shape.htm
The Islamist contention that almadahi and udhiyatun conveys the concept of roundness which they link to the root of dahaha is false for the reason that the 'roundness' of the almadahi and udhiyatun is only in two dimensions. The almadahi is round like a piece of Arab bread (i.e. shaped like a disc) and the udhiyatun is also round in two dimensions. Nevertheless, one of the meanings of dahaha is to 'throw' and that is the derivation of the words 'almadahi and udhiyatun'.
The evidence can be seen from Lane's Lexicon, from which the Islamist appears to have referred to, but did not allude to the two-dimensional characteristic of the stones and the hole in the aforementioned game.
LANE'S LEXICON ENTRY
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000023.pdf
| Quote: |
Dhaheelath see dahl, near the end of the paragraph. dhahhal One who hunts, or catches game, by making use of the dhahool so in the verse cited voce dhahool l. (TA.) Dhahil Very rancorous, malevolent, malicious, or spiteful; wont to hide enmity, and violent haired, in his heart, and to watch for opportunities to indulge it, or exercise it. (Az, TA.)
Dhahool [an arabicized word from the Pers. Dhakhool] A thing which the hunter of gazelles sets up [for the purpose of scaring them into his toil or into the neighbourhood of his place of concealment], consisting of pieces of wood: (S : ) or a thing which the hunter sets up for [the purpose of scaring] the [wild] asses, (K, TA,) and As adds, and the gazelles, (TA,) consisting of pieces of wood like short scars (K,* TA) stuck in the ground, with some pieces of ragged cloth upon their heads; and sometimes set up at night, for [the purpose of searing] the gazelle, with the addition of a lighted lamp; (TA; ) [whence] Dhu-r-Rummeh says,
Wa Yashrabna Ajnan Wannujoomu Ka’annaha
Masabeeh dahhalin Yuzakkee Zubalaha
[And they drink water that is altered for the worse in taste and colour, while the stars are like the lamps of the hunter by means of the Dahool when he make. their wicks to blaze brightly]: (TA : ) the pl. is dawaheel (K.)
Dahw
1. Daha (., MM_b;,, 1,) first pers. Dahouth aor, yad'hoo inf. N. dahoo He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended; (S, Msb, K; ) a thing; (K; ) and, when said of God, the earth; (Fr, S, Mb, 1V; ) As also daha first pers. dahaithu (K in art. daha) aor. yaad’heae inf. n. dahae: (Msb, and K in art. dahae : ) or He (God) made the earth wide, or ample; as explained by an Arab woman of the desert to Sh: (TA : ) also, said of an ostrich, (S, TA,) he expanded, and made wide, (TA,) with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs: (S, TA : ) and, said of a man, he spread, &c., and made plain, even, or smooth. (TA in art. dhaha ) - Also, said of a man, (K,,) aor. yad’hoo, inf. n. dahwu(TA,) i.q. Jamie as also daja; on the authority of 1Abr. (TA.) [You say, dhahaha He compressed her; like as you say, dhajaha.] _ Also He threw, or cast, and impelled, propelled, oi removed from its place, a stone, with his hand (TA.) One says also, to him who is playing with walnuts, abidil maddha va adhhuhu, meaning [Make thou the distance far, and] throw it. (S,TA.: See also midh’hath, in two places. And of a torrent one says, dhaha bilbat’hai It cast along [the soft earth and pebbles in its course; or drove then along]. (TA.) And of rain, one says, dhaha Al hissa an waj’hil Ardhi (S,Msb) It drove the pebbles from the surface of the earth; (Msb; ) or removed them. (TA.) [See also dhaha, in the next art.] And aldhahwu bilhijarathi also signifies The vying, one with another, in throwing stones, and striving to surpass [in doing so]; as also al Midahath [inf. n- of dahee]. (TA marra yad’hoo inf.n. dahow said of a horse, He went along throwing out his fore legs without raising his hoofs much from the ground. (S,TA.) = dhahal bathan The belly was, or became, large, and hanging down; (Kr, K; ) and Indhahee (the belly) was, or became, wide, or distended: (MF : ) or both signify it (the belly) became swollen, or inflated, or big,. and hung down, by reason of fatness or disease; as also Dhau and Indah (TA in art dooh.)
3. Dhahee inf.n. Mudahath: see 1.
5. Thud'hee He spread out, or extended, himself; syn. Thabassuth. (K: in art. Daha.) You say, nama fulan fathadhahha Such a one slept, and [extended himself so that he] lay upon a vide space of ground (TA in that art.) - And thadhahhathil ibilu fil ardhi The camels made hollows in the ground where they lay down, it being soft; leaving therein cavities like those of bellies: thus they do only when they are fat. (El-'Itreefee, TA in art. Daha. )
7. see 1, last sentence.
9. id'havi [of the measure if’alath for if’alle like Ar’awa] It (a thing, TA) was, or became, spread, spread out or forth, expanded, or extended. (K.)
Dhahin [act. part n. of 1]. Allahumma dhahil Mad’huwwath in a prayer of ‘Alee, means O God, the Spreader and Expander of the [seven] earths: (TA : ) al Mdhuwwath [properly] signifies the things that are spread, &c.; as also Al Mudh’hiyyath. (TA in art. dhaha ) _ Al’Matharuddahee The rain that removes [or drives] the pebbles from the surface of the earth. (TA.)
Ud'hiyy (S.K) (Originally od'huwa of the measure Uf’ool from dhahaithu but said in the S to be of that measure from dhahouthu the dial. var. dhahaithu not being there mentioned,] and and id’hiyy and Ud’hiyyath and ud’huwwath (K) The place of the laying of eggs, (S, K,) and of the hatching thereof, (S,) , of the ostrich, (S. K. ) in the sand; (K; ) because that bird expands it, and makes it wide, with its foot, or leg; for the ostrich has no [nest such as is termed] Ush (S: ) pl. Adahin (TA in the present art.) and Adahee [i. e., if not a mistranscription, Adahiyyu agreeably with the sing.]: (TA in art. dhaha and mudhhiyya [likewise] signifies the place of the eggs of the ostrich. (S.) [Hence,] binthu Adh’hiyyathun A female ostrich. (TA.)_[Hence also,] Al Udkhiyyu and Al Id’hiyyu A certain Mansion of the Moon, (K, TA,) [namely, the Twenty-first Mansion,] between the Na’aai’m sa’dha zabih (more commonly) called Al Baldath likened to the Adhahhee of the ostrich. (TA.)
Ud’huwwath and udh’hiyyath: see the next preceding paragraph, in three places: - and for the latter, see also mid’hath, below.
Mad’han see ud’hiyy
Mid’hath A wooden thing with which a child is driven along (yud’ha), and which, passing over the ground, sweeps away everything against which it comes (K, TA.) - Accord. to Sh, A certain thing with which the people of Mekkeh play: he says, I heard El-Asadee describe it thus: Almadahiyy and Almasadiyy signify stones like the [small round cake of bread called] qursath, according to the size which a hole is dug, and widened a little: then they throw those stones (yad’hoona biha) to that hole and if the stone fall therein, the person wins; but if not, he is overcome: you say of him yad’hoo and yasdoo when he throws the stones (Iza dhahaha) over the ground to the hole: and the hole is called ud'hiyyath. (TA.) [Accord. to Freytag, the authority of the Deewan El-Hudhaleeyeen, A round thing made of lead, by the throwing of which persons contend together.]
Almadhuwwath and almad’hiyyath see Dahin,
Dhaha
1. Dhaha first pers. Dhahaithu,aor. yad’ha inf.n. dhah’ya: see 1 in art. Dhahoo.__ dhahaithul ibil (K,) inf. n. as above, (TA,) I drove the camel,; (K; ) as also dhahaithuha (TA.)
[4 mentioned by Freytag as on the authority of the K is a mistake for 5.]
5 (mentioned in this art. in the V and TA): see art. Dhahoo
7 (mentioned in this art. by MF): see art. Dhahoo.
Dhah’yath A single act of dhahy, i. e. spreading, (Msb.) = A she-ape, or she-monkey. (K.)
dhihyath A mode, or manner, of dhahyu, i. e. spreading, &c. (Msb.) = A headman, or chief, (R, K, TA,) in an absolute sense, in the dial. of El-Yemen, (R, TA,) and particularly, of an army, or a military force. (K, TA.) AA says that it signifies "a lord," or "chief," in Pers.; but seems to be from dhahahu aor. yadh’hoohu, meaning "he spread it, and made it plain or even ;" because it is for the headman or chief to do this; the a. being changed into LS as it is in swibyath and fith’yath; and if so, it belongs to art. dahoo. (TA.) [Accord. to Golius, the pl. is dihau; but I think that it is more probably dhahan.] It is in a trad. that what is called Albaithul Ma’emoor [q.v. in art. Amr] is entered every day by seventy thousand companies of angels, every one of these having with it a dhih’yath and consisting seventy thousand angels. (TA.)
Ud’hiyyun and Id’hiyyun see art. dhaha.
Ud’hiyyath: see ud’hiyyu, in art. dahoo, in two places. |
Note that Lane also translates dahaha to mean the place in the sand where the ostrich lays its eggs, and not to the eggs themselves.
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UnsichtbarerGeist
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but i have one more question about the "dahiya"-Argument and the lexicon-entry:
Clearly, the grammatical forms of "dahaha" have nothing to do with an egg-shape. However, if duhiya ("egg") is a different word - could it be possible to derive "dahaha" also from the other word "duhiya"? Could it be possible, that two different words ("spread out" and "egg") have different grammatical forms, which are both "dahaha"?
Could anybody give me a short statement about this idea and the arabic grammar?
Thanks,
UG |
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chingachgook
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hey man, Hector, good to see you back. Welcome back! Where have you been? 
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| UnsichtbarerGeist wrote: |
Sorry, but i have one more question about the "dahiya"-Argument and the lexicon-entry:
Clearly, the grammatical forms of "dahaha" have nothing to do with an egg-shape. However, if duhiya ("egg") is a different word - could it be possible to derive "dahaha" also from the other word "duhiya"? Could it be possible, that two different words ("spread out" and "egg") have different grammatical forms, which are both "dahaha"?
Could anybody give me a short statement about this idea and the arabic grammar?
Thanks,
UG |
I don't know about the grammar but I can be almost certain that 79:30 is not referring to the shape of an ostrich egg. The Quran often repeats itself many times. Every other time it talked about the creation of the earth is mentions that Allah spread it out. So, in 79:30, we are left with a choice. Does dahaha mean spread out or shaped like an ostrich egg. I think it's a no brainer what it means if we look at every other mention of this in the Quran and clearly see that it tells us that Allah spread the earth out. Dahaha does not refer to the ostrich egg at all, nor even it's a shape, but instead refers to the action of spreading the dirt out and flattening it that the mother ostrich does to create a pit to hide the egg. So it has nothing to do with the egg itself nor it's shape. And again, if we are in doubt, then all we need to do is to look at all of the other verses in the Quran where it talks about Allah spreading out the earth and it becomes completely conclusive. The ostrich egg theory is nothing but yet another lying scam. Hmm...big surprise, eh?  Muslims would never try a scam like this. Oh no, no no no
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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QXP And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped. ('Dahaha' entails all the meanings rendered (21:30), (41:11)).
This one is absolutely hysterical. Don't these people have any shame at all?
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charleslemartel
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| chingachgook wrote: |
| Hey man, Hector, good to see you back. Welcome back! Where have you been? |
He is not back yet.
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote: |
QXP And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped. ('Dahaha' entails all the meanings rendered (21:30), (41:11)).
This one is absolutely hysterical. Don't these people have any shame at all? |
They do have "Shame". In fact, they are so much ashamed by the stupidities in Quran that they do not mind lying to hide their shame at all.
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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And the most hysterical part is that they can't even lie in a rational or sensible manner. They're too retarded to even be able to lie correctly. I'm trying to picture a way that I can spread something out to create a ball. Aren't we looking for words like "rolled up" rather than spread out? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I'll pick laughing.
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote: |
| And the most hysterical part is that they can't even lie in a rational or sensible manner. They're too retarded to even be able to lie correctly. I'm trying to picture a way that I can spread something out to create a ball. Aren't we looking for words like "rolled up" rather than spread out? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I'll pick laughing. |
Sometimes I think that Muslims should start declaring that Arabic is an evolving language. They should keep rewriting Arabic Dictionaries to include more and more meanings to words. I am sure that if they do this one day each word of that great language of Allah will mean all the other words in existence
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Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
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Mughal
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Zorasta_Russ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Lane's Lexicon entry on Dahaha |
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| Hector wrote: |
Note that Lane also translates dahaha to mean the place in the sand where the ostrich lays its eggs, and not to the eggs themselves. |
A correction needs to be made.It is not dahaha which means the place in the sand where the ostrich lays it's eggs but it is the word ud'hiyy. First of all dahaha tranlates into 2 words. Daha = flattened and ha = it(feminine). However ud'hiyy is derived from daha.
Muslims lie about their own Qur'an and ignor centuries of Islamic scholarship and commentaries. Read from an official Islamic site Tafsir al-Jalalayn on verse 79:30
| Quote: |
| and after that He spread out the earth: He made it flat, for it had been created before the heaven, but without having been spread out; |
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=79&tAyahNo=30&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0
You may have to click on the word English to display the English translation of tafsir al-Jalalayn.
Look at the dictionary defintion of daha
spread out , level off , level http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=A-E&sub=دَحَا
Note that there is no reference to anything egg shaped or spherical but spread out or level. Level means flat. |
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Mughal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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While we are at it, I would also like to point out that according to the quran, Allah never mentioned even once that the day and night occur on the earth at the same time and are there permanent. It is always said that day and night follow each other in succession ie during day time it is day all over the earth as far as Allah is concerned and during night time it is night on whole of the earth. It is all in context of flat earth.
Allah also tells us he could make day permanent on the earth or the night permanent. This means Allah never knew that day and night were already permanent on the earth. This too tells us that Allah thought the earth was flat.
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AhmedBahgat
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AhmedBahgat
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| UnsichtbarerGeist wrote: |
Sorry, but i have one more question about the "dahiya"-Argument and the lexicon-entry:
Clearly, the grammatical forms of "dahaha" have nothing to do with an egg-shape. However, if duhiya ("egg") is a different word - could it be possible to derive "dahaha" also from the other word "duhiya"? Could it be possible, that two different words ("spread out" and "egg") have different grammatical forms, which are both "dahaha"?
Could anybody give me a short statement about this idea and the arabic grammar?
Thanks,
UG |
LOL
well, you got it the other way around
you can not derive Daha (Verb) from Dahya (Noun)
but you can derive Dahya (Noun) from Daha (Verb)
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
| UnsichtbarerGeist wrote: |
Sorry, but i have one more question about the "dahiya"-Argument and the lexicon-entry:
Clearly, the grammatical forms of "dahaha" have nothing to do with an egg-shape. However, if duhiya ("egg") is a different word - could it be possible to derive "dahaha" also from the other word "duhiya"? Could it be possible, that two different words ("spread out" and "egg") have different grammatical forms, which are both "dahaha"?
Could anybody give me a short statement about this idea and the arabic grammar?
Thanks,
UG |
LOL
well, you got it the other way around
you can not derive Daha (Verb) from Dahya (Noun)
but you can derive Dahya (Noun) from Daha (Verb) |
I don't know about the grammar but I can be almost certain that 79:30 is not referring to the shape of an ostrich egg. The Quran often repeats itself many times. Every other time it talked about the creation of the earth is mentions that Allah spread it out. So, in 79:30, we are left with a choice. Does dahaha mean spread out or shaped like an ostrich egg. I think it's a no brainer what it means if we look at every other mention of this in the Quran and clearly see that it tells us that Allah spread the earth out. Dahaha does not refer to the ostrich egg at all, nor even it's a shape, but instead refers to the action of spreading the dirt out and flattening it that the mother ostrich does to create a pit to hide the egg. So it has nothing to do with the egg itself nor it's shape. And again, if we are in doubt, then all we need to do is to look at all of the other verses in the Quran where it talks about Allah spreading out the earth and it becomes completely conclusive. The ostrich egg theory is nothing but yet another lying scam. Hmm...big surprise, eh? Muslims would never try a scam like this. Oh no, no no no
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