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darth
Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 2493
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 Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| DaSerpent wrote: |
Being an atheist doesn't mean you play loose and fast with logic simply because you don't like Mo.
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Nightthief in coming to his conclusions -
1) ignores the fact that Mo's favorite wife is a child
2) dreams about her before he is married to her (she was 6 when he married her)
3) expresses a wish to marry a 3 year old child crawling in front of him.
Tell me, is it logical and honest to ignore this and arrive at the conclusions that nightthief does?
| DaSerpent wrote: |
The implication is that respect to truth and integrity are incompatible with atheism. This sounds like the kind of baseless accusations rotunely thrown out by religious people to score cheap point.
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Where did I imply that? I mean quite the opposite. Being an atheist means you have no motive to lie for a religious personality. |
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Tequila Nic
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: In a pub
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| fact that Mohammed had sexual relations with a pubescent or prepubescent child makes such action acceptable to the Muslim community today. Although he stated he would never engage in such behavior (and implied that the vast majority of Muslims would not do so), he would not condemn a single man that does do so. |
so if mohammad did it it OK to sleep with 9year old girls
And this isnt wrong according to the post
Nic
_________________
Tolerate : the ability to bear something unpleasant or annoying.
Intolerance : when you refuse to accept ideas, beliefs or behaviour that are different from your own. |
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Baal
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 4418
Location: Egypt
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: |
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On the issue of preferring the young over the old: Wasn't Aisha his favorite wife. When he was about to die he took permission from them to spend his last 2 weeks with her before he died in great pain with his head burried between her breasts (she was 18 at the time). He promised once to divorce all of them except Aisha when they were complaining he is not physically performing and told them being in my proximity is good enough. He only fathered one son from Maria the Copt. as per Aisha.
_________________
"Kad Kazab Alayna Muhammed"
Islam is Not Genetically Inherited from your Parents.
"Child brides in non-Western society is about love, marriage and husband and wife bonds." - AMuslim arguing for his Nabey Al-Saleh |
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umma_allergic
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 700
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Baal wrote: |
| On the issue of preferring the young over the old: Wasn't Aisha his favorite wife. When he was about to die he took permission from them to spend his last 2 weeks with her before he died in great pain with his head burried between her breasts (she was 18 at the time). He promised once to divorce all of them except Aisha when they were complaining he is not physically performing and told them being in my proximity is good enough. He only fathered one son from Maria the Copt. as per Aisha. |
I think Baal's comment is material to the question Nightthief raised. It seems that Nightthief was assessing the accuracy of the term "pedophile" for Mohammed based on the historical fact of his marriage to Aisha alone. Nighttheif is right that the fact of child marriage in the ancient world is not enough for a diagnosis of pedophilia. Many kids were "married" to other kids or to adults, while continuing to live with their parents and not seeing their "husbands" until the age of majority for that society. These marriages were really deals between families, made for reasons of property or for dynastic reasons, and on a moral level they are basically the same as any system of fully-arranged marriage.
Nightthief did not assess the significant amount of additional information suggesting that, whatever the status of child marriage in Mohammed's time, he was a pedophile, with an erotic interest in children that was not usual for the time. I don't know what the discussion is like in the online community where this conversation originated. It is very possible that this additional information has not been mentioned much on that board. People tend to focus on the marriage to Aisha when this topic comes up, which is understandable.
Nightthief seems to have been arguing that the fact of marriage to Aisha is not in itself evidence of pedophilia in the clinical sense of the term, and he is right. However, there is this additional evidence to consider.
I did not get the sense that, by saying that Mo's issue wasn't *pedophilia*, Nightthief was exonerating Mo. Nightthief clearly thinks that whatever the status of this historical marriage, as an example for the present day, it constitutes an ethical problem we have to grapple with now - namely a whole culture that allows the sexual use of children. Perhaps that is the issue he thinks is the true problem, and that is where he would prefer to focus some discussion. I would agree with this focus also, but we need to keep the light on Mo's pedophilia as well.
Based on additional evidence, it seems that Mo *was* a clinical pedophile. But the broader issue of the sexualization of children today, particularly in Shia Islam, I believe, does deserve to be decried with as much energy as we decry Mohammed's sexualization of children.
_________________
Learn how to argue/debate properly
http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/argument.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ |
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Jonas
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who is interested in reading the thread where this topic originated is welcomed to join the board at mauisun.org/vbb. After you join, just go to the World Political Debates Forum.
The tone on the thread at Mauisun seems to be less condemning than the one here. Some members say or seems to imply we shouldn't condemn what may be legal or religiously accepted in other countries. There is also the point raised that we shouldn't point the finger at Muslims since the Virgin Mary, according to widely held christian beliefs, was in her early teens when the immaculate conception occurred, and if that was true, what does that make God?
Umma_allergic, if you have the time, I would really like to get your input over at Mauisun. Everyone is welcome. It's a family site with very helpful members but I just go there mainly for the political debates.  |
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Hector
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 7144
Location: Astroistan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Jonas,
Welcome to FFI. If I may add, Mary being 12-14 is only from the apocrypha and therefore that story is not considered to be true by Christians.
Also, Joseph was not a prophet. In contrast Mo(lester) was uswa hasana - the model for humanity for all time. There is a difference in expectations between Joseph and Mo(lester).
Thirdly, this is merely a tu quoque against Joseph.
_________________
What sort of man would f*ck a sweet little prepubescent nine-year-old child who liked playing with dolls and swings? Mo the demon Pedophile.
Last edited by Hector on Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Baal
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 4418
Location: Egypt
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: @umma_allergic |
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Good analysis for my explanation. I also forgot to mention that Aisha described Mo' was practicing "Thighing (Mofakhada in arabic)" in the time prior to consumating the marriage, so I will assume between age 6 and 9. What is the clinical term for that. surely it can not be as bad as full-blown penetration, that would split the baby in half.
_________________
"Kad Kazab Alayna Muhammed"
Islam is Not Genetically Inherited from your Parents.
"Child brides in non-Western society is about love, marriage and husband and wife bonds." - AMuslim arguing for his Nabey Al-Saleh |
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umma_allergic
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 700
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I already spend *way* too much time on FFI!! I don't think I can possibly manage another forum site. But please feel entirely free to cross-post anything at all that I write over to mauisun.org if you think it might be topical. All I ask is that you link back to the original post, so if people want to engage it, they can do so here. |
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chingachgook
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3101
Location: Land of Twilight Zone
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Nightthief wrote: |
We know from the Muslim histories that Mohammed did marry a six-year old girl and consumated his marriage with her when she was nine. (The ages are variously disputed, providing an alternative argument that she was nine and 13, respectively, for the two events.) We also know that this girl was one of many wives that Mohammed had - with all of the rest of them being considered to be adults.
Given these two pieces of information, it is clear that Mohammed did not have a primary sexual arousal for pre-pubescent children, pubescent children, or post-pubescent children. As demonstrated by his miltitude of adult wives, Mohammed's primary sexual arusal was to adult women, which precludes any possibility of him being defined as either a pedophile or an ephebophile. |
OMG ! This is something new! The Profit did not have a primary (?) sexual arousal (maybe secondary?) How does he know this?
| Baal wrote: |
| Good analysis for my explanation. I also forgot to mention that Aisha described Mo' was practicing "Thighing (Mofakhada in arabic)" in the time prior to consumating the marriage, so I will assume between age 6 and 9. What is the clinical term for that. surely it can not be as bad as full-blown penetration, that would split the baby in half. |
Right on Baal !! The Profit DID have primary sexual arousal!! His throbbing dcik told him away!  How can one be said to be not having arousal, whether tertiary or secondary when one's dcik starts to looks up, (toiiiiinkkk!!!) like a dog waiting for his master to throw the stick?
_________________
When Muslims DON'T follow Islam they are holy. When Christians DON'T follow Christ's they are not holy (chingachgook)
 </islam> |
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonas wrote: |
Anyone who is interested in reading the thread where this topic originated is welcomed to join the board at mauisun.org/vbb. After you join, just go to the World Political Debates Forum.
The tone on the thread at Mauisun seems to be less condemning than the one here. Some members say or seems to imply we shouldn't condemn what may be legal or religiously accepted in other countries. |
Excuse me, MoHamMAD f!cked a pre-pubescent child!  Anyone who doesn´t condem this isn´t sane. 
| Quote: |
There is also the point raised that we shouldn't point the finger at Muslims since the Virgin Mary, according to widely held christian beliefs, was in her early teens when the immaculate conception occurred, and if that was true, what does that make God?
Umma_allergic, if you have the time, I would really like to get your input over at Mauisun. Everyone is welcome. It's a family site with very helpful members but I just go there mainly for the political debates. |
1. Tu quoque.
2. We don´t know how old Mary was (according to catholic belief she was about 15 years old when she gave birth) + she was not pre-pubescent (as she could obviously get pregnant) + the immaculate conception didn´t involve sex (or some 50+year old prick boinking her)
_________________
</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
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Jonas
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ixolite wrote: |
| Jonas wrote: |
Anyone who is interested in reading the thread where this topic originated is welcomed to join the board at mauisun.org/vbb. After you join, just go to the World Political Debates Forum.
The tone on the thread at Mauisun seems to be less condemning than the one here. Some members say or seems to imply we shouldn't condemn what may be legal or religiously accepted in other countries. |
Excuse me, MoHamMAD f!cked a pre-pubescent child! Anyone who doesn´t condem this isn´t sane.
| Quote: |
There is also the point raised that we shouldn't point the finger at Muslims since the Virgin Mary, according to widely held christian beliefs, was in her early teens when the immaculate conception occurred, and if that was true, what does that make God?
Umma_allergic, if you have the time, I would really like to get your input over at Mauisun. Everyone is welcome. It's a family site with very helpful members but I just go there mainly for the political debates. |
1. Tu quoque.
2. We don´t know how old Mary was (according to catholic belief she was about 15 years old when she gave birth) + she was not pre-pubescent (as she could obviously get pregnant) + the immaculate conception didn´t involve sex (or some 50+year old prick boinking her) |
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just relaying what is written over there. Head on over if you're so inclined. |
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Jonas
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Some other points the members at Mauisun have raised:
1) It's wrong to judge another culture (islamic) by our (western) standards because in those cultures, it's accepted. It's sick to judge them because we're so damn sure of our ways, and in doing so we are alienating Moslems and others who may otherwise agree with out foreign policies.
You guys gotta come and join in. Even if you cancel your accounts after this subject dies, that's cool by me. |
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Junkmaster
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2922
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Jonas
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Junkmaster wrote: |
| Jonas wrote: |
Some other points the members at Mauisun have raised:
1) It's wrong to judge another culture (islamic) by our (western) standards because in those cultures, it's accepted. It's sick to judge them because we're so damn sure of our ways, and in doing so we are alienating Moslems and others who may otherwise agree with out foreign policies.
You guys gotta come and join in. Even if you cancel your accounts after this subject dies, that's cool by me. |
What is the link again and has anyone posted a link to umma_allergic's response which I thought did a great job of rebutting the apologetics?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=439351#439351 |
The link is www.mauisun.org/vbb
After you register for your free account, scroll down to the World Political Debates forum. Just keep the debates civil because it's a family board.
I'm going to post umma_allergic's response now. |
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm just relaying what is written over there. |
"Condemning" was your choice of words. 
_________________
</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
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