in response to Islam, Apostasy and the Human Right to Freedo

[rnath_verma]

am Ranganath varma from India. I have read the article in faithfreedom.org
Islam, Apostasy and the Human Right to Freedom of Conscience
There are a lot of things in the article that really does'nt reflect some of the basic facts regarding Hinduism,buddhism and Sikhism.

First lets talk about Buddhism. You say that Siddarth Gautama Buddha challenged orthodox Brahmanism, and out of this was born Buddhism.
I dont know about your Knowledge about India and its history neither would I want to know your academic credentials.
I assume that you have read the story of Gautam Buddha and please I beg you where in the hell did he or his actions mentioned that it was against the oder of that day. You were not able to read the obvious from the Buddha's story out of sheer prejudice.
Buddha's enlightment was sparked by the sight of decrepit old man, a sick man, a corpse and led him to the path of enlightment by which he came to the conclusion that desires are the reason of misery and all his teachings are for the control and renunciations of these desires.
Orthodox Brahmanism did'nt existed as you view it at any point of time. Orthodox Brahmanism was never the power or authority that as u claim subjugated the population of India. It was an invention of the 19th century westerners more so by those scholars who were hell bent upon delivering the souls of India at the feet of Catholic church.
The power in India was always with the kings and I dont think in India there exists any king that subjugated its population. As u claim orthodox Brahmanism if indeed had the power it would not have let the parsis, the jews and the Christians into the country in ancient times. Nor would it allow an entire village donated to the jews.
To poove the point in the Tamil scriptures has mentioned the existence of 6 schools of thought in which Buddhism was mentioned as one which was prevelant(I dont remeber the name of the book which is from the 1st century AD) at that point of time.
As far as the decline of Buddhism is concerned, you need to bear in mind, after a couple of centuries of Buddha's death Sankaracharya, the author of Advaitha was born. He was a legendary figure right from his childhood, he renunciated material life at the age of 10years and finally died around 35 years. This individual's brain child was ADVAITHA famously known as VEDANTHA. The philosophy of Advaitha pegged any spread of Buddhism further. The Advaitha is the favorite Book of many wetern scientists and noble lauretes might indeed had the power. And another reason for the decline of Buddhism was that it broke up into different sects and the final death blow was rendered by the Islamic rulers in India.
If I had taken every word of the history curriculam which is taught in India, I would'nt have a different opinion than you. But a simple analysis could lead you to what is fact and what is lie..
The term "RELIGION" cannot be used to describe HINDUSIM, JAINISM, BUDDHISM or SIKHISM because they are all PHILOSOPHIES, and neither of them claim that they are words of GODS and worst of all they dont try to impose it on others as words of GODS like CHRISITIANITY or ISLAM.

Coming to Sikhism, I feel that you have a very menial if not no knowledge about SIkhism's birth and its accent from the views you have expressed in your article.
Sikhism arose as a socio-political movement challenging Brahmanical caste system.??? What are you talking about....Have u read the philosophy of Sikhism, did you read the birth of Sikhsim(not from the Indian history text books or the Colonial masters wiered views that were formed in the cozy palaces rather than by the views of the people on the ground). Read the Guru Grath the sacred book of the Sikhs you'll know if Sikhism is any different from Hinduism.And by the way caste system was a social evil..As the constitution of India banned caste system, it doesnt mean that Indian constitution is a religion in itself and against Hindus.
To make your task easy let me quote some of the words of Sikh Gurus who according to you has only contempt for Hindusim


* Taha hum adhik tapasya sadhi
Mahakal kalika aradhi
- Guru Govind Singh
(There I worshipped and did penance to seek Kali.)
* Ram katha jug jug atal
Sab koi bhakhat net Suragbas Raghuver kara
Sagri puri samet Jo en Katha sune aur gaave
Dukh pap tah nikat na aave
- Guru Govind Singh
(The story of Ram is immortal and everyone should read it. Ram went to heaven along with the whole city. Whoever listens to or sings His story, will be free of sin and sorrow.)
* Kahaiya Hinduan daro na ab tum
Im likho pathon dil sain Guru Nanak ki gadi par
Ab hain Tegh Bahadur Unko jo Muhummadi kar lihoon
To ham hain sab sadar Arya Dharma rakhak pragatiyo hain
- Guru Tegh Bahadur
(Hindus, do not fear, Guru Tegh Bahadur is Guru Nanak's successor. If Muslims bother you, I'll take care of them. For I am the protector of Hinduism.)
* Tin te sun Siri Tegh Bahadur
Dharam nibaahan bikhe Bahadur Uttar bhaniyo, dharam hum Hindu
Atipriya ko kin karen nikandu Lok parlok ubhaya sukhani
Aan napahant yahi samani Mat mileen murakh mat loi
Ise tayage pramar soi Hindu dharam rakhe jag mahin
Tumre kare bin se it nahin
- Guru Tegh Bahadur's reply to Aurangzeb's ordering him to embrace Islam.
(In response, Shri Tegh Bahadur says, My religion is Hindu and how can I abandon what is so dear to me? This religion helps you in this world and that, and only a fool would abandon it. God himself is the protector of this religion and no one can destroy it.)
*

* Sakal jagat main Khalsa Panth gaje
Jage dharam Hindu sakal bhand bhaje
- Guru Govind Singh
(The Khalsa sect will roar around the world. Hinduism will awaken, its enemies will flee.)
* Those who think of Sikhism as a synthesis between Hinduism and Islam will probably be shocked to find Guru Nanakji Himself claiming that the Kali Yuga was ushered in into India with the advent of Islam, in the poem "Makke-Madine di Goshti". In the same poem, the Guru refers to the Sufis Moinuddin Chishti (of Ajmer) and Shah Madar (of Makanpur) as imposters who were leading Hindus astray with the intention of converting them.
* While reading the Puranas, the Guru Gobind Singh had been deeply struck by the idea that God had been sending a saviour at critical times to save the virtuous and destroy the wicked. He believed he had been sent for the purpose. In the Chandi Charitra the Guru says that in the past God had deputed Durga to destroy the evil-doers and this duty had now been assigned to him. In Bachitra Natak the Guru says:
Hum eh kaj jagat mo ae
dharam het gur dev pathae
jahan tahan tum dharam bitharo
dusht dokhian pakar pachharo
[for this purpose I came into this world.
God sent me for the sake of Dharam. Where ever
you are, spread dharam. Root out the
oppressors and the wicked]


The guru then invokes for the long life of all those who ever remember God and fight in the righteous cause. In Krishna avtar he writes:
Dhan jiyo tih kau jag main
mukh te Hari chit main yuddh bichare
[blessed are they in this world, who have
Hari(another name of Krishna) on their tongue and
war in their heart]

Caste system was a bad thing, it dont need a reveleation from God to determie it is a bad thing. Sikhs were against caste system and against rituals. Against caste system was good but they dont know the meaning behind rituals .All daily routinbes of humans can be called life sustaining rituals but ritulas of worship aare soul sustaining. Some feel joy in it, if they dont affect others whats worng in rituals.
Dont come to the conclusion of that I am a Brahmin, I am not, I am a citizen of India. But how many know and I dont think you could know that Sikhs were as divided as Hindus, the Kathris,..and so on.

It might be valuable info for you that the eldest child of every Hindu Famly was raised as a Sikh, at the begining of Sikhism.

Caste system as thought by u as an Orthodox Brahmins instrument to subjugate the populace of India, was at its begining a grand Division of Labour of the society, But as times passed, it became what it is and so it should be ended.
If the lower caste people so thought that Brahmins were their subjugaters they wouldnt invite them to perofrm their marriages and ceremonies.

Hinduism, Buddhism,Jainism,Sikhism,Shinto,Zen,for that matter Greek philosophies continue to strive for better human existence on eternal truth's rather than like the Islamic, Christian, and Judiac dogmas of an ancient belifs of nomadic people each claiming to be words of GODS and Exclusive to reach gods.

I feel that you just used the anology of Buddhism, and Sikhism for the sake of envisaging that Islam should face the burden of truth and reason.

Thanking you
Ranganath Varma

[patriot]

[anaconda]

Yes the article lacks substance, Sounds like writtern by missionary to create confusion about Hinduism and to help in in spreading christianity..
I am from backward caste. . Caste system was a social problem rather than realigious. Buddhism and Sikhism were not born to eradicate caste system.
Author should have given references to substantiate his claims rather than making blatant claims. I think he wrote articles after reading christina missionary propaganda and dalit movements brainchild of christian missionaries..

[rnath_verma]

Mr Patriot

Sincierly, patriot u vomit rubbish at evry turn, and this is not the 19th century for the westerners to believe in what ever the cristian missionaries say and as their paid agent u say.
And u say all this on a forum which believs in the Golden rule that rejects beliefs.
No where does the Hindu philosophy say that People go to hell if their ceremonies are not performed by Brahmins.

Please dont post in this forum again, it wastes my time responding to u in a fear that some might believe in ur lies and fall victim to ur lies if there hasnt been any clarification or response to ur post

[rnath_verma]

As u mentioned that ur from a backward classes, anaconda these christian missionaries are linking Hindusim with a social evil and holding it responsible for it in a bid to forward ther missionary activity.

The article is so biased as it placed Hindusim on the same plane as Islam and Medival Christianity whcih started persecuting people of reason. Such persecutions were never happeend in India the land of Hindusim.

I think Ali Sina should not admit such articles because it is going to affect the reputation of the site.

Thank you read into the article, What I precisely felt and I think most of the Hindus will feel the same.
It was my responsiblity to condemn this article or otherwise people may take it for truth

[patriot]

[STEAM]

[patriot]

[anaconda]

Mr Patriot,
Author says that 'Six hundred years before Christ, Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha) challenged orthodox Brahmanism in India to give the world the serenity of Buddhism' ?
Did you question author on this blatant lie ? or asked him to substantiate his claims.?
Do you belive in his claims? You jumped to refute 'Ranganath Sharma' but not on the article. This shows you are predujiced..

Let us assume 'Orthodox brahminism' existed as author says. Did they destroy temples belonging to others or Did they kill people for not believing in their dieties.?

Instead of using Hinduism to negate Islam(which is nowhere similar), author could have used 'Christianity'. which has caused destruction of 100's of pagan temples and death of hundreds of thousands of non beleivers.
Hinduism does not say 'It is the only path to god'.. and who do not believe in it are infidels..

[patriot]

[STEAM]

[patriot]

STEAM , you may put forward your objections in the challange in the religion section.
_________________
I seek the truth not defend any faith.
Patriotism can lead us to the path of spirituality and truth.The path of truth,righteousness, spirituality are only possible if we Indians unite India, protect it against invaders

[crazy canuck]

Well I learn something new everyday on this forum. Only thing I hate when this Verma fellow threatens patriot not to respond.
. Darn it, this is open forum any one can respond in any way he likes. . No one should feel intimidated by even modrern day corrupt Sankrachryas.- &: Some of them stillbelive that women can not chant vedas!! Some also believe in untouchability!!

A. There was no Brahnmin orthodoxy ever in India? Who made all those caste taboo laws? Who made those laws regarding untouchability? Who made oppressive laws against widows?Sattis? Who made those law that daxina paying Hindus cant go abroad lest Brahmin's children go hungry? Did Brits stopped Hindus from living India?Did Rajas made these laws? Brahmins made those laws and convinced their rulers to impose or else Raja can go to hell? Read Manusmriti, where he talks about duty of Rajan to see that all these laws are followed by his subjects.

B.Gautam and Mahavir were both against Yagnas where Brahmins used to openly kill cows and eat steak. Everyday was staekk day for those Rigvedi brahmins. Aryasamjis & North Indian Brahmins, VHP wallas etc. can reinterprete as much as they like, but facts remain, animals were sacrificed in anicent India.Left over meat was eaten by them, not donated to untouchables!! Still few temples in India kill goats. Who introduce this temple killing? Brits? Jainism & Budhhism put a stop on this senseless animal sacrifice, also they were agisnt even throwng ghee on fire while Indians were going hungry. Till this date tons of ghee is consumed by flames as Brahmin chant their mumbojumbo. Budhha-Mahavir hated mindless chanting and rituals people didnot understand. If they were not against rituals they would have also enjoyed cow steak a day. Does anyone see Jain-Budhha thrwing ghee in havan.

C. Guru Nanak also hated that ritual of Hindus were you do shradhhas and give material things to Brahmin so that it will reach to departed souls. Stupidest custom of Hindus!! Till this date they give golden cow and clothings to Brahmins after some one dies !! I have seen that in New Jeesy USA.. No dontaion to any charity!! The well known legend of Nanak throwing water to his crops in Punjab from Ganges bank alludes to his contempt for greedy Brahmins.

[crazy canuck]

I think Ali Sina should not admit such articles because it is going to affect the reputation of the site. ... Verma

Verama where do you live? We have several artcles criticizing Islam as well as Christianity on this forum. Do you understand what censorship is? Are you worried about site's reputation or reputation of Karmakandi Brahmins?

[yeezevee]

rnath_verma wrote to Mr Patriot