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Vincent
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 1363
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 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: Refutal to Ali Sina's comments on homosexuality. |
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If you disagree with Ali sina's comments on homosexuality as a source of the loss of morality in the western societies, post it on here.
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The other structural flaw in the western society is the rampant immorality. In the name of freedom, libertinage and immorality are promoted. Pornography is protected as freedom of speech and is easily accessible through the Internet, TV and movies even by children. Judeo-Christianity, which despite their past excesses and present flaws, promote morality, family values and decency, are now under attack. Funny thing is that it is politically correct to vilify Judaism and Christianity, but it is not when it comes to Islam.
The problem is that we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. We got rid of religion but at the same time we throw away morality too. Alternative lifestyles have gained legitimacy. Not only homosexuality is completely accepted, gays have even "pride" parades which are grotesque displays of obscenity. One thing is to have the protection of human rights for homosexuals and quite something else is this promotion of indecency. I believe for many, homosexuality is not a choice. I can't become homosexual no matter how immoral I become. So it is a mistake to equate homosexuality with immorality. It would be immoral to deny them their human rights. But in some cases people seem to have "converted" to homosexuality. After many years of living normal heterosexual lives, they become "curious" and since there are no moral restraints and guidelines, they give in to deviant sexual experimentations.
Although homosexuals must be protected, there is no reason to promote homosexuality and pretend that it is normal. What about bisexuality and promiscuity? Are these normal and moral too? Do we have to and live all our sexual fantasies?
We are living in a culture that criticizing immorality could brand you as a "bigot". I am going to lose a lot of support just by saying this. I am not a politician and I am not running a popularity contest. My job is to defend our world from Islam. You asked why the westerners convert to Islam and I must tell the truth as I see it. If that offends anyone, let him be offended.
Recently the Supreme Court judges of Canada legalized swinger clubs where people reconvene and practice swapping or swinging, even orgy gang-bangs. The Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote: “Consensual conduct behind code-locked doors can hardly be supposed to jeopardize a society as vigorous and tolerant as Canadian society”. The lawyer for the swinger clubs said “It does not contaminate society. It does not hurt; it does not do any harm to society and to the public in general”.
Is that a fair statement? What message are we sending to our children? What values are we espousing as the society? What is so vigorous about the Canadian or Western society when there are no moral standards set in place at all? Let us not confuse libertinage with tolerance. A lax society is not a vigorous society. It is in fact a very vulnerable and weak society that can fall at anytime.
Beaches are filled with nudists. Is that the insignia of a vigorous society? Make a Google search with "Christian nudists" and see how many entries you find. If you want to be nudist why call it Christian? Where did Jesus say that it is Christian to brandish your genital to everyone? Do as you please; but why defile Christianity and make Islam look attractive?
While the Western society gives total freedom to the individuals to do whatever “consenting adults” please, which admittedly is better than having the government poke into your private life and your bedroom, like in Islamic countries, there are no moral compasses to tell right from wrong. The very notion of right and wrong has come under question. The motto is "if it feels good do it". Hedonism rules! Talking about morality can be offensive. Morality is a politically incorrect subject. Many people are genuinely offended if someone speaks of morality and family values. It is okay if you talk about your sexual fantasies and deviances. That is called "liberation". But you would be frowned at if you talk about morality in public. Then you'd be accused of trying to impose your values on others.
Talk to those who have converted to Islam and ask them why. Read the stories of Cat Stevens (now Yusuf Islam), John Walker Lindh (the American Taliban), Yvonne Ridley (the BBC journalist who was captured by the Taliban in Afghanistan and upon returning to UK converted to Islam), Muriel Degauque (the Belgian woman who became the first White suicide bomber in Iraq killing six people) or the pop singer Michael Jackson. All these people come from broken or dysfunctional families where proper guidance was lacking. All of them were dragged into excesses of sex, drug, booze or all of them prior to converting to Islam. John, at the age of 16 had to endure the trauma of witnessing his father leave his mother to pursue his homosexual relationship with another man. These converts were searching for an authority to pull them out of their tormented lives and give them the direction that they have never had. They craved for an iron fist to set their lives straight. In Islam they found the answer. They, and basically all those who convert to Islam will tell you that they were fed up of the immorality in the West and that was the main reason they were attracted to Islam – going from one extreme to another.
Nature hates vacuum. Once a society is depleted of moral values, it creates a vacuum that will be filled by doctrines that hold to such values, even though those values are draconian and oppressive. In fact the more a society is devoid of morality, the more promising prudish and unpermissive doctrines look. Licentious societies create a spiritual vacuum that legalistic religions such as Islam fill. The glitter of a libertine life is soon faded and the soul yearns for something more meaningful, more profound and otherworldly. "There must be more to life than carnal pleasures", is the inner calling of every soul.
A society that is not founded on morality falls apart and becomes easy prey to puritan cults such as Islam that on the surface, promote family values and morality.
The strength of an individual is not in his extreme freedom and libertine lifestyle, but in the stalwartness of his character and his moral vigor. The society is made of individuals. What is true for an individual is also true for the society. A society that is not founded on moral values is doomed to fall. 1700 years ago the advanced but lax Roman Empire fell to an obscure puritan sect called Christianity and more than one thousand years of darkness cast their shadow over Europe . The danger today is that with the fall of the Western civilization, what would come to power is one of the most nefarious and dangerous doctrines humanity has ever seen, from which there could be no recovery ever.
Irrespective of our intellectual and technological advances, if we are lascivious as a society we will be vulnerable, not just vis-à-vis Islam but to any absolutist doctrine that may rise from the East or the West. The human society is part of the nature. It responds to natural laws. If the pendulum is pulled to one extreme, it will swing back to the other extreme. This is an inescapable truth based on natural laws. If we want our civilization to survive, we have to watch for the extremes. We have to reclaim our morality, both individually and as the society. To protect ourselves from extremisms, we have to maintain moderation.
Licentious lifestyles and sexual experimentations promoted by the New Age cults and social liberals destabilize family. All the technological feats are ornaments; the foundation of the human society is family. Once the foundation is weakened, the society will fall. Morality is the mortar of a strong, healthy and functional family.
This is in nutshell why westerners fall prey to Islam. It is because of these two structural flaws. Political correctness and immorality will make the Western society crumble. It is not enough to be on the offensive. We must also shore up our own defenses and make our society immune to attacks. Sadly we are doing neither. |
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Just a couple of questions to Ali Sina
1) Homosexuality has always existed throughout the history, the only difference, is that homosexuals are free now to declare their sexual orientation and can live it freely without the threat of persecution, while before, they were harrassed and even put to death. So how is homosexuality, a cause of our loss of morality, if it always existed.
2)How do you define Morality, do you mean a homosexual cannot be moral in his way of thinking and conduct? Of course when I talk about homosexuals, I don't mean Drag queens and those you see in gay parades, I mean decent people who keep their sexuality to themselves.
Last edited by Vincent on Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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dear Vincent.. just a suggestion, it is best to couple that Ali Sina Article to your post, so that reader could carefully go thorugh it
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..I am glad you edited and put that article dear Vincent. you wrote some thing there
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| Of course when I talk about homosexuals, I don't mean Drag queens and those you see in gay parades, I mean decent people who keep their sexuality to themselves. |
but is it not possible that Ali Sina wrote about "Drag queens and those you see in gay parades" not "decent people who keep their sexuality to themselves"....I have not read the article carefully but let us think a bit..
with best regards
yeezevee |
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Alkaliel
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The concept of morality, in my opinion, doesn't include clinging to the dangerous mores of a bygone age. Homophobia should go. |
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sahara
Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 12461
Location: Banned
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I believe for many, homosexuality is not a choice. I can't become homosexual no matter how immoral I become. So it is a mistake to equate homosexuality with immorality. It would be immoral to deny them their human rights. But in some cases people seem to have "converted" to homosexuality. After many years of living normal heterosexual lives, they become "curious" and since there are no moral restraints and guidelines, they give in to deviant sexual experimentations.
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Those people he is claiming converted to sexuality after living as heterosexuals, were usually homosexuals to start off with.
So many people have had to pretend to be what they are not in order to fit into a society that looks down on them.
They have married and had children, but then they haven't been able to lie to themselves anymore, and they have come out of the closet.
I won't lie, I think society has become a touch immoral, but I'm not thinking of homsexuality, I'm thinking about swingers and live sex shows and all the loose morality that seems to have appeared.
If my son told me he was gay, I would be as normal as if he had brought a girl home to meet me, I won't care.
I will bring my child up well and he will be what he was born to be. Gay or straight.
No amount of gay 'advertising' (so to speak) will change that, and that is what people like Ali Sina are really afraid of.
He seems to believe that contact with gays will spread the disease, and considering he was content to let the BNP be associated with FFI, then I guess he supports their views on gays not being allowed to work in schools and crap just incase they are a bad influence. 
I do not agree with his stance on homosexuality. |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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sahara: No amount of gay 'advertising' (so to speak) will change that, and that is what people like Ali Sina are really afraid of.
He seems to believe that contact with gays will spread the disease, and considering he was content to let the BNP be associated with FFI, then I guess he supports their views on gays not being allowed to work in schools and crap just incase they are a bad influence.. |
I don't think that is what Ali Sina presented in that article dear sahara, unless I misundrestood it..
with best
yeezevee |
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Phedippedes
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 8092
Location: Not on FFI anymore
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| sahara wrote: |
Those people he is claiming converted to sexuality after living as heterosexuals, were usually homosexuals to start off with. |
You are quite correct about this I think. Closet gay men (or women), who forced by society, their religion, their family and their peers try to live a straight life. I know of a lesbian woman who only after 15 years of a lousy marriage which ended in a divorse gathered enough courage to come out of the closet and walk hand in hand with her girlfriend.
With the exception of ancient Sparta I know of very few societies which actually promoted or forced a gay lifestyle upon (mostly) straight people. It's usually the other way around. Gays also usually do not stone, lash, burn, torture or expel people for not being gay. From the days of the OT, the Quran up to Nazi Germany and the Dutch Bible Belt gays have always been on the receiving end of the stick. |
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sahara
Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 12461
Location: Banned
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| yeezevee wrote: |
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sahara: No amount of gay 'advertising' (so to speak) will change that, and that is what people like Ali Sina are really afraid of.
He seems to believe that contact with gays will spread the disease, and considering he was content to let the BNP be associated with FFI, then I guess he supports their views on gays not being allowed to work in schools and crap just incase they are a bad influence.. |
I don't think that is what Ali Sina presented in that article dear sahara, unless I misundrestood it..
with best
yeezevee |
I feel that he is saying that it is the promotion of being gay that is (along with other things) leading to the downfall of our society and pushing people towards Islam.
When I read it I get this "yes you can be gay, and yes you have rights, but please don't go on about it as it leads other 'heterosexuals' to experiment"
Am I misreading it? |
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Kaisys
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1902
Location: Ether
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| sahara wrote: |
| yeezevee wrote: |
| Quote: |
sahara: No amount of gay 'advertising' (so to speak) will change that, and that is what people like Ali Sina are really afraid of.
He seems to believe that contact with gays will spread the disease, and considering he was content to let the BNP be associated with FFI, then I guess he supports their views on gays not being allowed to work in schools and crap just incase they are a bad influence.. |
I don't think that is what Ali Sina presented in that article dear sahara, unless I misundrestood it..
with best
yeezevee |
I feel that he is saying that it is the promotion of being gay that is (along with other things) leading to the downfall of our society and pushing people towards Islam.
When I read it I get this "yes you can be gay, and yes you have rights, but please don't go on about it as it leads other 'heterosexuals' to experiment"
Am I misreading it? |
True, not misreading.
One of my friend puffs Malbouro.
He has tried evrything from cacaine to grass just once.
If heterosexual people just for experimentation try to be him whats wrong in it.
When people can try unnautral drugs for just one try in life , then why not the natural and normal homosexuality.
Ali sina has no right to comment on
1) how many times we fu ck our partners.
2) Whether we move nude or not.
Why do we seem to forget that our ancestors were nude..
So whats the big deal in being a nudist.
It is the freedom of decision of every people whether to take up the fashion of being homosexual or remain what u r....
whats the deal even if human race dies off.....
_________________
The God with demands , desires and descrimination is as good as any human. -- Kalu
If you cannot see god in all, how can you see god at all?-DSingh |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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This message was receoved by John R.
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Well, I can't say this interview was very inspiring. It is always difficult and perhaps pointless to derive a singular few causes to very complex social forces.
I think the people who convert to Islam from the West are not very representative of either Western strengths or weaknesses but just failures within any setting. They are, for whatever reason, dependant personalities.
Western hedonism may not be as weakening as you think. I think your background is creeping through here.
It is just as valid a reading that the West will resolve to fight ever harder to retain the ability to indulge those hedonistic freedoms.
Moral laxity does not infer moral confusion. Islamic strictures have not resulted in a stronger culture, a more obssessive one, yes but stronger ?
Measuring strength merely by reproducability is deceptive. A flaw does not diminish merely because it is repeated in great numbers.
I think you have overstepped yourself a little in Interview2. I also don't think there are large numbers of Islamic converts in the West.
Regards
JR |
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Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
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Richard_The _Lionheart
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 6166
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| The other structural flaw in the western society is the rampant immorality. In the name of freedom, libertinage and immorality are promoted. |
What I do believe is missing in society is Responsibility.
Freedom has to be in tandem with responsibility. Without responsibility freedom can be dangerous and that it what I consider to be immoral.
_________________
What the world needs is not dogma but an attitude of scientific inquiry combined with a belief that the torture of millions is not desirable, whether inflicted by Stalin or by a Deity imagined in the likeness of the believer. - Bertrand Russell. |
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lazysusan
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 62
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think what Dr. Sina says is that Protecting rights of everyone is fine & right thing to do but promoting actions or ideas or tendencies which will be harmful to society, under the name of freedom is self-defeating.
I agree...maybe because I come from a relatively more conservative country. But was US also so liberal with freedom for the sake of freedom, 40-50 years ago ? Why are Americans/Europeans pushing themselves to be more & more liberal (in morality issues...like the example of Canadian Court ruling, given by Dr. Sina) ? |
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kotham
Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 321
Location: Kafir land
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I support Ali Sina on his "gay issue". Although many people in US will not openly admit it but gays have taken thier issue to far to the left. The gays have alligned themself with extreme left and they both are supporting each other agenda. Extreme left sees gays and muslims are allies in thier fight against west. In all the polls Majority of the americans have voted against gay marriages.
Except the minority west most people in the world think being gay as wrong. I am all for protecting gays from prejudice but i am against promoting gay life style like as a normal life style. Open homesexuality is bad for the society. Homesexuality is not normal. High rate if HIV infection among gay men proves that homosexuality are not a healty life style. Homosexuals can't have normal family life or children.
Islam was able to defeat the Persians and Romans become they had become weak by internal problems. Homosexuality is one issue which can weaken the west. One good example of that is the craze of "Brokeback mountian" in US. This movie is used by left Hollywood to make Homosexuals romantic hence normal. The Movie conveys that is romantic for two married guys to have an affair as long as its homosexual affair. Its a good idea for movie but bad idea for real life.This does not take into account the amount to mental devastation thier familes will have to endure. I think homosexuals should keep thier sex life to themself and not try to preten its normal.
Once again Ali Sina has hit the nail on its head. I am today proud of Dr Ali Sina for taking a strong stand and not falling for the usual PC.
_________________
muslims reads Quran, Non-muslims,Ex-muslim understands Quran
Last edited by kotham on Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Agaricus
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 11191
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Ali Sina
I was shocked by this article.
I was planning a rebuttal of my own. You say "homosexuality is not normal".
I did not choose between being straight or gay, I had no choice in the matter. I would not have objected to such comments on the forum, but I found your description of homosexuality brought me great personal offence.
I no longer expect you to alter or change what you have presented.
But I have been celibate for the best part of 8 years, and do nothing "sexually immoral".
I cannot change my sexuality. My sexualit is part of my identity, as intrinsic and as normal to me as having two legs.
I would have wished for the article in its current form never to have appeared on the main site.
I found it hateful and personally I found it extremely hurtful.
I have been shocked on the current affairs how so many individuals are also willing to trash my sexual identity, calling me a drama queen.
If I cannot get a reasonable explanation, I am requesting that my account(s) at FFI be terminated permanently, so that I can never return to post.
I am sure that can easily be arranged. It is the same as being banned.
I have been an open homosexual for28 years now, and I thought you were not of the same mindset that I used to encounter 28 years ago.
It seems you have no desire to qualify what you wrote, and I think I should be a fool to back down now, after stating that I would leave.
The only thing I want to know, was did you consider the effects such comments, displayed not on the forum, but on the main page, would have to those who were homosexual?
Or would you rather that FFI were a club where people have a duty to attack anything they see as "PC".
As I said, because of the circumstances of how I live, looking after an elderly dying lady in the middle of nowhere, I am celibate.
But I am homosexual, and I shall always be.
I admonish you for denouncing my life in such a cheap show of literary bravado.
_________________
Extremism is the loser's revenge on society
I reserve the right to make public any PMs sent to me. Be warned! |
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Dan-Cannon
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaisys wrote: |
Ali sina has no right to comment on
1) how many times we fu ck our partners.
2) Whether we move nude or not.
Why do we seem to forget that our ancestors were nude..
So whats the big deal in being a nudist. |
Actually, he DOES have the right.
And that seems to be the main thing people here are confused about. Calls for apologies or self censorship are pathetic. They smack of Muslim mentality.
Nobody says anyone has to agree with Ali or cannot refute him with valid, logical arguments.
Those calling for censorship or apologies are just as PeeCee as the mainstream media, throwing temper tantrums when one of the perceived sacred cows is slaughtered.
As far as i'm concerned, this whole issue is exposing the true nature of certain people who can't deal with someone's opinions in the same way we can clearly see with the cartoon Jihad.
Fighting for unconditional freedom of expression is fine and dandy. But once that fight becomes feeble the moment your own holiest of holies is being scrutinized, the fight was not based on genuine conviction to begin with.
Voltaire is the only true measuring point to be applied to test one's true conviction when it comes to freedom of expression.
Some people here in FFI seem to fail horribly.
_________________
Islam is anti-infidel, therefor i am anti-Islam. - Dan Cannon.
I am the greatest minority in the world: an individual. - David Gulbraa. |
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kotham
Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 321
Location: Kafir land
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Agaricus
Since you have admitted that you are gay and you are hurt by Ali Sina opinion but that does not mean that you should stop interacting on this forum. Your views are welcomed. Just because Ali Sina and you don't share same ideas should not cloud the fact that we have a war going on between muslims and non-muslims. We non-muslims should all stick togather. A diffrence of opinion should have not create a division and weeken us. Atleast Dr Ali Sina was honest were he stands.
BTW Ali sina was not talking about you. There is diffrence between being gay and following a gay lifestyle. Following are some picture from gay parade which is disgusting. These are the people who are giving gays a bad name but since most gays don'r speak against them its considered as normal gay
This is type of gay lifestyle which is weakening the west and allowing it to be target for Islam.
_________________
muslims reads Quran, Non-muslims,Ex-muslim understands Quran
Last edited by kotham on Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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