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bob
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Paris, France
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 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to intervene in the Cyberite/Ali Sina 'debate' as it doesn't interest me in the slightest but a quote from AS that Cyberite has posted I find shocking and indefensible:
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| ". . . I am trying to show the world that Muslims are not humans. Their brain is structured in a very different way. We may be able to get along with crocodiles, snakes and scorpions but we will never be able to get along with Muslims. |
This kind of vocabulary is reminiscent of Nazi outbursts against Jews as 'vermin' and 'rats'. What do you to humans who are 'not humans'? Well, you kill them, with gas, for example.
Ali Sina's hysterical language is sometimes not only despicable. It is also a STRATEGIC mistake. A 'nominal' Muslim who comes to FFI with doubts about his/her faith and reads neo-Nazi filth like this would, I think, be put off by the site right from the start. Also it's not surprising, faced with language like this, that Muslim apostates such as Adnan left FFI when their presence could have been very useful in educating 'uncertain' Muslims.
However, in his defence, I doubt whether Ali really practices what he preaches. Presumably he doesn't think that the Iranian Mollah he prayed with and showed around town was 'not human'.
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"Ecrasez l'infâme!" |
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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| bob wrote: |
I don't want to intervene in the Cyberite/Ali Sina 'debate' as it doesn't interest me in the slightest but a quote from AS that Cyberite has posted I find shocking and indefensible:
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| ". . . I am trying to show the world that Muslims are not humans. Their brain is structured in a very different way. We may be able to get along with crocodiles, snakes and scorpions but we will never be able to get along with Muslims. |
This kind of vocabulary is reminiscent of Nazi outbursts against Jews as 'vermin' and 'rats'. What do you to people who are not quite humans? Well, you kill them.
Ale Sina's language is sometimes not only despicable. It is also counter-productive. A 'nominal' Muslim who comes to FFI with doubts about his/her faith and reads filth like this would, I think, be put off by it right from the start. Also it's not surprising, faced with language like this, that Muslim apostates such as Adnan left FFI when their presence could have been very useful in educating 'uncertain' Muslims.
However, in his defence, I doubt whether Ali really practices what he preaches. Presumably he doesn't think that the Iranian Mollah he prayed with and showed around town was 'not quite human'. |
bob, this is so only superficially.
But this is not a racial attack. What if the word "nazi" was substituted for "muslim"? How many people would then object to that? Those that would agree with you would not mind the same said to a nazi. Ali Sina is talking about a mental attitude. I think this was directed to one touting himself as a supposedly "moderate" muslim, using nice friendly words, but still pushing consipiracy theories re Freemasons/jews plots, and jews controlling the White House.
From all the comments made here by muslims, it seems correct to say that we will never be able to agree with muslims. With a closer examination, what Ali Sina said is not so bad.
He did not say that muslims were vermin, just that we would have a better chance to get along with snakes, croccodiles and scorpions.
But because of its seemingly superficial appearance of extremist talk, it may have been wiser to couch it differently.
It is a PR mistake. Here we have one taqiyah tactician, chatting nicely to everyone but still, at times in conjunction with Berard, pushing odious conspiracy garbage, but couched in friendly talk. As a result, there were several forummers here taken in by him, (as shown in his farwell threads) thinking he was quite a nice moderate chappie. This is why I think Ali Sina spoke to him like that.
edit PS : We are all human and can get a little heated at times.
Perhaps M can send AS a friendly little warning pm to remind him of the 'ten commandments'.
_________________
The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
>>paradoxtoparadise]<<
>>> http://www.geocities.com/humandecency/first <<<
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bob
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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HD,
Ali said:
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| I am trying to show the world that Muslims are not humans. |
This could only mean one of two things:-
1) Muslims are to be likened to Nietzschean Supermen, or,
2) Muslims are subhuman.
Personally, I think he meant the latter. I see no difference between his attitude and Muslims' when they call non-Muslims 'filthy kaffir' or Jews 'pigs and apes.' In a WAR , when one is trying to win over substantial numbers from the opposing side, it is not a good strategy to employ the same ideological weapons as the enemy. Why? Because it won't work. It's as simple as that.
FFI is part of the anti-Islam 'propaganda' department. As far as I know, the site is not an offshoot of the Pentagon and has no role whatsoever to play in the armed opposition to Islamic fundamentalism and Muslim terrorists. As FFI's arsenal is in the field of ideas and arguments, then its 'commander' should 'review' his weaponry.
And as I said, courageous ex-Muslims like Adnan who made extremely valuable contributions to FFI left because of language like this. A.S. is scoring an own goal. He is chasing away much-needed potential allies. If he were in the military, he would be discharged for being ineffective. [/quote]
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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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bob I agree with you that it was a mistake, but don't consider it the same as what muslims or nazis are saying.
As for what x-muslims feel about it, Ali Sina is one of them. So it's an x-muslim speaking directly to a muslim......especially one he considered insincere.
There are other x-muslims here who I don't think are upset by this. But maybe we will see them comment.
He got a bit carried away in the same way that parents can yell at their kids "I'm gonna kill you" or comment on the state of their room and call them "filthy animals".
So now I'm going to say an Islamic thing. - We have to consider the context in which it was said.
_________________
The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
>>paradoxtoparadise]<<
>>> http://www.geocities.com/humandecency/first <<<
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SKENDERBEG
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 770
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Cyberite chose to leave no one forced her off this site. We are all able for the most part to express our believes without being censored here .she was able to express her view's and her 7000 posts prove that. lol . But for some reason she got her feeling's hurt. so like a little child she took her marbles and went home to play all Alone, I like the freedom this site gives all of us to speak our minds. right wing left wing it doesnt matter to me as long as we all can give our opions here It's all good. That's what I like about this site.
being born in Albania. I never had the freedom to say what I think or what I believe.
so enjoy what this country give's us and what this site gives us freedom.
cheers to ALI SINA. |
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nomad
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 6320
Location: Allahpalooza
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Sir Galahad wrote: |
Dear Nomad,
My point was not that people should lie about their education, expertise or other relevant personal information on-line. I certainly do not. However, it is a bit strange to be concerned about being associated with a supposedly radical forum if your real name is unknown and in your posts you have clearly stated you are not on the side of the radicals.
Kind regards, |
To me, because we do have a conscience, an intelligence, a sense of integrity and honesty, and sufficient interests for this particular issue that we believe to be a problem: Islam, regardless of how many comments each one of us may counted, if that interest has been elevated to a passion to any degree, enough that I would create a mask, an icon, a simulacra or whatever that I believe to be representative of 'me', I should have as much concern to what group or club that I associated to this representation of me.
Now, no matter how anyone may feel about the intellectual contents and significance of anyone's comments, the fact that once those comments have been responded to that became a debate, and I'm using the word 'debate' broadly here, that debate adds to the structures and growth of the group or club. Comments that are particularly insightful or educational are even more valuable to the enrichment of the debates, and those insights or educational tidbits can take the form of ironies, humor, sarcasm or even insults. Their loss would be like reading a book with paragraphs, pages or even whole chapters missing so obvious to the reader(s).
In the absolute analysis, you're right that it's really irrelevant that since it's highly remote that such an Internet icon can be absolutely attributed to a real person without their willingness to do so, the concerns of one's real persona being associated an Internet group or ideals is equally irrelevant. The fact that we've people who used different representations of themselves is testament to the ease in which we can shed these identities with no one the wiser. The fact that a person is willing to use this tactic, without just cause such as technical issues, is evident of the personal lack of honor and integrity. And the fact that a person is willing to damage the structures of the group based solely upon this ultimately dubious concern is evident of malice.
_________________
"We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this fatwah," Osama bin Laden 1998
"I consider every American my enemy." Zacarias Moussaoui 2006 |
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Arizona
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 184
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I couldn't help posting this alternative story - a French children's tale - regarding the mighty sun:
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La Petite Souris
The father of a gifted and very pretty mouse seeks out for her a suitable husband. He wants to find the most powerful being in the world. It seems the sun would fit this bill so he approaches him and offers his daughter's hand in marriage. The sun, however, replies that he is not the most powerful being in the world for yonder cloud can hide his light and is therefore more powerful. The father approaches the cloud who claims that the wind can chase him away so the wind is the more powerful. The wind, in turn, claims that yonder tower is most powerful as it is unmoved by his greatest strength. When the father approaches the tower, it informs him that its days are numbered as its very foundations are being slowly gnawed away by a mouse. Whereupon the father meets this handsome and determined mouse who readily agrees to marry his pretty daughter. |
Like any good story it can be read in many ways but my own reading right now in this context is that the most powerful solution of all is for human beings to reach out to other human beings and commit to long-term relationship and cooperation. The tower can represent any manmade construction, any edifice of belief or ideology of purpose. It is the small individual who undermines these unwieldy fortresses of faith but as Sir Galahad hinted with his Chinese saying, it's best to work on your own fortress and leave others to work on their own.
_________________
For I am the one who alone exists,
and I have no one who will judge me.
- The Thunder, Perfect Mind |
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Dharma Bhrasht
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| . . . I am trying to show the world that Muslims are not humans. Their brain is structured in a very different way. We may be able to get along with crocodiles, snakes and scorpions but we will never be able to get along with Muslims. |
Ali saheb,
You had once mentioned a writer with whom you corresponded regarding his article about the origins of "Aryans" and "Semites". You said in your article that the writer's imprecise language would lead people to wrongly conclude that he was equating Aryans with nobility and Semites with peasants(I have forgotten what the issue was exactly). Hence his article would come across as racist and instantly be discredited, even though a thorough read of his analysis would reveal that it was anything but racist.
Are you guilty of falling into this same trap which you yourself had previously referred to?
I understand that by "Muslim", you meant a real practicising Islamist and not "pretend Muslims" or people who wrongly believe they are Muslim, as you have said. I understood this as I have read quite a few of your articles. But won't the language mentioned above come across as gross stereotyping and plain hate-mongering to an uninitiated person?
PS: I have not read the article in which you said the above about Muslims, or I have forgotten about it. If, in that article, you actually made it clear WHOM you meant when you used the term "Muslims", then what I said does not apply and the quote has simply been taken out of context and posted on this thread to attack you.
At any rate, I wonder whether you should not be more explicit about whom you are referring to? Perhaps replace the term "Muslim" with "Islamist" and "Islamic"? Saying "Islamic person" or "Islamist" instead of "Muslim" will make you a lot less vulnerable to the kind of accusations that have been hurled at you. |
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Arizona
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 184
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Dharma Bhrasht wrote: |
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| . . . I am trying to show the world that Muslims are not humans. Their brain is structured in a very different way. We may be able to get along with crocodiles, snakes and scorpions but we will never be able to get along with Muslims. |
At any rate, I wonder whether you should not be more explicit about whom you are referring to? Perhaps replace the term "Muslim" with "Islamist" and "Islamic"? Saying "Islamic person" or "Islamist" instead of "Muslim" will make you a lot less vulnerable to the kind of accusations that have been hurled at you. |
Sorry, mate, but calling people "Islamist" or "Islamic" instead of "Muslim" makes no difference. They are all human. Whenever we lose sight of that we lose our own humanity. We are kaffirs or unbelievers to Muslims but we are nevertheless human. Why try so hard to beat them at their silly game? Imitation is, after all, the highest form of flattery, is it not?
_________________
For I am the one who alone exists,
and I have no one who will judge me.
- The Thunder, Perfect Mind |
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Dharma Bhrasht
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Arizona: Nazis and Communists are human too, technically speaking. So what? Those ideologies are evil nonetheless. Fully practising Nazis and Communists are capable of subhuman behaviour and routinely carry it out. I don't know how else to describe tieing a disabled black man behind a van and dragging him on the road till he dies because he is black, or chopping off the limbs of villagers who disagree with the terrorist Marxist ideology. |
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Arizona
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 184
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Dharma Bhrasht wrote: |
| Arizona: Nazis and Communists are human too, technically speaking. So what? Those ideologies are evil nonetheless. Fully practising Nazis and Communists are capable of subhuman behaviour and routinely carry it out. I don't know how else to describe tieing a disabled black man behind a van and dragging him on the road till he dies because he is black, or chopping off the limbs of villagers who disagree with the terrorist Marxist ideology. |
Human beings have been cruel to each other since earliest recorded history. The behaviour is abhorrent and repulsive but the people carrying it out are human beings. The native American Indians routinely carried out appalling tortures on captured "others" while the victim laughed and sang the songs he had been taught especially for the occasion. There is absolutely nothing especially Islamic or Nazi or Communist or Christian Inquisitionist about this. Human beings do it, have always done it, and no one knows how to stop it happening.
Some sensitive souls have studied the psychology of how cruelty is possible and the first step is to dehumanise your victim, treat him as less than human so it's OK to hurt him. So saying that anyone - even the perpetrator - is not or is less than human is to play the same game. It is an especially dangerous game to label a whole group in this way as was done regarding Muslims. Yes, Islam is guilty of this game and yes, if you like, you can fight fire with fire. Just know you're doing it, just know you're down there wallowing in the same moral cesspit.
_________________
For I am the one who alone exists,
and I have no one who will judge me.
- The Thunder, Perfect Mind |
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nomad
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 6320
Location: Allahpalooza
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Arizona wrote: |
| There is absolutely nothing especially Islamic or Nazi or Communist or Christian Inquisitionist about this. Human beings do it, have always done it, and no one knows how to stop it happening. |
Especially? May be not. But labels are necessary in order for us to begin to understand the motivations behind the acts. When we said Nazi or communist, it bring to front an entire history of an ideology, a people and the conflict we engaged against them. It help mentally to separate the parties involved.
_________________
"We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this fatwah," Osama bin Laden 1998
"I consider every American my enemy." Zacarias Moussaoui 2006 |
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IoshkaFutz
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3895
Location: Caput Mundistan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Nit-picking. If Ali were to come out and wave ciao-ciao to the world, he'd have his head hacked off. And why would he have it hacked off? For denouncing a head-hacking, child-molesting prophet slavishly followed by 1.3 billion people.
Yes perhaps a few nasty words, the result of a few bad moods might have escaped this heroic and hard-working man who has written thousands and thousands of vibrant pages and set up a wonderful site and a truly magnificent forum.
Yes, maybe sometimes one can get upset at people who defend using children as ordinance delivery systems and who half bury men and women in pits and throw rocks at them while chanting God is great.
A "vermin" or a "zombie" or a "walking vagina" might've escaped. Anger might've flared when 3000 people were murdered out of the blue sky and preachers and politicians defend it OBLIQUELY.
It's best not to get angry and emotional, so calls to speak more calmly and clearly should be given, repeated and respected.
But this thread is about somebody whose behavior threatened the forum and nearly altered the spirit of the place by constant, repeated and insistent personal attacks upon forummers.
If we want to become not picking literalists, I bet all but a bare few would be guilty of thought crimes. But very few are guilty of actually disrupting the forum.
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</islam> Whenever you guys shout "Allah Akbar" I find myself ducking for the floor - Haik Monsieur |
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Arizona
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 184
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| nomad wrote: |
| Arizona wrote: |
| There is absolutely nothing especially Islamic or Nazi or Communist or Christian Inquisitionist about this. Human beings do it, have always done it, and no one knows how to stop it happening. |
Especially? May be not. But labels are necessary in order for us to begin to understand the motivations behind the acts. When we said Nazi or communist, it bring to front an entire history of an ideology, a people and the conflict we engaged against them. It help mentally to separate the parties involved. |
There is nothing wrong with analysing a situation and finding the right words for making distinctions. I just think that "Muslims are less than human" is not a very refined or advanced conclusion.
_________________
For I am the one who alone exists,
and I have no one who will judge me.
- The Thunder, Perfect Mind |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| IoshkaFutz wrote: |
| But this thread is about somebody whose behavior threatened the forum and nearly altered the spirit of the place by constant, repeated and insistent personal attacks upon forummers. |
Hi IoshkaFutz,
Indeed this is what this thread is about.
I agree that Cyberites behaviour here at FFI was as you have descibed...........I won't go into details of my observations and personal experiences, except to say that they suffice to re-infoce this to be the case.
The forum is better focused and more effective without this element. |
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