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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
Location: Location: Location
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 Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| IntellectualWarfare12 wrote: |
| Sahih Bukhari V5 B58 #234 wrote: |
| The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. |
So she was sick for three years |
Quite possibly; or it could be 2 years and a bit. Look at the chronology. It says that later (no time is given) her hair regrew (possibly representing the end of the illness) upon which day she was sent to Mohammed. From the regrowth of her her to her being introduced to Mohammed, everything seems to be chategorised in the same day (or at least in the same relative timeframe) when you examine the hadith.
Many illnesses last several years, and this one (judging by the symptom) was very serious.
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A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil. |
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IntellectualWarfare12
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 1602
Location: The Atlantic Ocean
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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.........
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Yeezeevee wrote: people are NOT GOING TO BELIEVE in such silly stories murder of Sumayah, the torture of Bilal, story of Abu Jahl bayoneting this old lady Sumayah.. stories such as this
FFI Hypocrisy........
Last edited by IntellectualWarfare12 on Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| IntellectualWarfare12 wrote: |
| No, I asked you if she was sick for three years. You're talking about the growth of her hair. That illness represents the illness every girl gets before she hits puberty. Why would Muhammad wait for her hair to grow? Talk about ridiculous argument. She was PUBESCENT. This was the point of the hadith |
There are no instances where girls lose their hair because they're about to reach puberty, nor are there such illnesses associated with young girls about to reach puberty - especially when they last 3 years.
Aisha made a clear tie between her illness and losing her hair. Her hair subsequently regrowing quite clearly signifies the end of her illness. I don't see why else it would have anything to do with her subsequently being able to consummate with the prophet - reaching puberty would not have anything to do with her hair regrowing.
If the point of the hadith was that Aisha reached puberty, it would have just said so. You have no evidence to back up what you just said.
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A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil. |
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IntellectualWarfare12
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 1602
Location: The Atlantic Ocean
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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........
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Yeezeevee wrote: people are NOT GOING TO BELIEVE in such silly stories murder of Sumayah, the torture of Bilal, story of Abu Jahl bayoneting this old lady Sumayah.. stories such as this
FFI Hypocrisy........
Last edited by IntellectualWarfare12 on Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| IntellectualWarfare12 wrote: |
| Talk about dumb quote. Honestly. When did I say her growing her hair had anything to do with puberty? The hair growing indicated that time passed by, possibly a few months. Read this: |
There's nothing dumb about what I wrote, pal. I've been cordial with you, I suggest you show the maturity to do the same.
You said that the hair probably regrew after a few months, but the hadith suggests that it took 3 years, since it fell of when she was 6, and regrew during what appears to be a very similar period in time from whne she describes herself as 9. By what close examination of the hadith suggests, it took at least 2 years.
| Quote: |
So note, a period for a girl occurs from the age of 8 to 14, though this is not always the case as a girl can also start her period by 14 or maybe 15. However so for Aisha it is most likely her puberty started at 8, and continued till she was 9, and once she was going through puberty and her menses, this made her a lady and not a girl anymore since she was fit for a baby therefore she is no child anymore.
In fact early symptoms of a girl going through puberty is described as:
You may get PMS. PMS or "premenstrual syndrome" is a group of changes you may see and feel before your period. You may have headaches, dizziness, or feel sick to your stomach before your period. You may feel like crying more, feel a little sad, and feel more emotional about everything. PMS may cause you to retain (hold onto) water. Retaining water means that your body tries to keep more body fluid in before and during your period. This may make your breasts tender and cause you to feel bloated, restless, or grumpy.
If we read the hadiths, we find that right before Aisha got married off to the prophet that she was sick and not feeling to well:
The hadith proves that Aisha was pubescent at the time, so you have no argument against it. It can't get clearer than this. Give it up |
PMS occurs during the menstrual cycle, not before the first menstrual onset. Plus, she described herself as being ill 3 years before she even reached puberty (which you're claiming happened at age 9), so it would be ludicrous to make a connection between that and her reaching puberty. Her hair started falling down when the illness started at 6, and ended when she was nine. That would suggest the illness followed suite (since the first symptom of the illness was losing hair). Get it?
I honestly don't even think you understand your own argument here. I don't see why I should "give up" what is really a pretty obvious case.
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A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil. |
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ABI FATHAN
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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WHO WAS THE VICTIM ??? 
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"If you show mercy to those who are on the earth, He Who is in the heaven will show mercy to you" (prophet Muhammad) |
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Baal
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 4418
Location: Egypt
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Here is Abi Fathan, a typical muslim that argues in defence of Muhamad. His defence is a typical defence that we hear all the time: "Aisha was probably not harmed by the sexual relation with the 53 yrs old man, so obviously Muhammad was not a Pedophile". The sad thing is, Abi Fathan actually believes his defence.
The victims today are everyone following the example (Sunna) of Muhammad. All the girls getting betrothed to men older then their fathers and no one raising a finger to help them.
Btw, I think Aisha got such an extreme sickness because she got an STD from being thighed? Cooties maybe? The child Aisha's body was not used to the germs that adults pass to each other at the time.
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"Kad Kazab Alayna Muhammed"
Islam is Not Genetically Inherited from your Parents.
"Child brides in non-Western society is about love, marriage and husband and wife bonds." - AMuslim arguing for his Nabey Al-Saleh |
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IntellectualWarfare12
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 1602
Location: The Atlantic Ocean
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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.............
_________________
Yeezeevee wrote: people are NOT GOING TO BELIEVE in such silly stories murder of Sumayah, the torture of Bilal, story of Abu Jahl bayoneting this old lady Sumayah.. stories such as this
FFI Hypocrisy........
Last edited by IntellectualWarfare12 on Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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IntellectualWarfare12
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 1602
Location: The Atlantic Ocean
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: |
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.......
_________________
Yeezeevee wrote: people are NOT GOING TO BELIEVE in such silly stories murder of Sumayah, the torture of Bilal, story of Abu Jahl bayoneting this old lady Sumayah.. stories such as this
FFI Hypocrisy........
Last edited by IntellectualWarfare12 on Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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what ignorant nonsense you write.....what "illness" do healthy girls get before puberty???
my oh my.....your "desperation" in trying to defend the indefensible really shows....but you fail miserably.
imagine any poor little girl given to an old man for use and abuse and without "informed consent"......denied childhood even!!! But you as a "pious muslim boy" dont have any issue with this kind of evil thinking at all.
next time you see a little 6 year old, notice her two front teeth might be missing even........what would she know of marriage and adulthood???
maybe she didnt thrive because she was fretting....any child would!!!!
you disgust me you muslim boys that you dont give a sh!t about children or human beings or decencies....but you swallow the deceit and hoax of islam like the "submissive weak subservient slaves" tyhat you are!!!
That you are as you are tells us of your weak personality type........you will never become "real" men, as its not possible as a believing muslim and supporting the evil and osbscenities against the innocent. |
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IamThat
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: In between my ears!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ABI FATHAN wrote: |
| WHO WAS THE VICTIM ??? |
The victim was Aisha, when Muhamad died she was left alone. Thats one of the reason people marry in the same age group. If 53yr old man marries a 6 yr old girl he will probably crock 20years later leaving a young lady as a widow for rest of her life. Without a child that too. A girl leading a lonely and insecure life for the temporary gratification of a older man is considered selfish abuse. So if we consider mutual gratification then 52 yr olds should not marry children. Moreover we young men wont get any girls if old guys take it all, then you will have to sleep with your step mom. 
A women leading a lonely life for the rest of her life is abuse enough, weather she acknowledges it or not. If your wife dies and your supposed to lead a lonely life will you accept?
Another ang is older people are just not supposed to screw children. Thats that.
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As body, you are in space. As mind, you are in time. But are you a mere body with a mind in it? Have you ever investigated?When you realize that the distinction between inner and outer is in the mind only, you are no longer afraid. |
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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
Location: Location: Location
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| IntellectualWarfare12 wrote: |
| I wouldn't say it's dumb, that was a little too strong. But it wasn't well thought out. Aisha was ill for a little while, let's say a couple weeks when she was 8 years old, indicating her PMS. Then her hair grew again until she was 9 and that was when she moved in with the Prophet. Also, why would Muhammad wait three years for her to grow her hair to consummate her marriage with her? Aisha was definitely going through puberty then and had her menses. The point of this hadith is to show that Aisha went through her PMS then, when she first hit puberty. Even when she first hit puberty, her parents waited a little while longer to let her move in with Muhammad. I would say it took about a year for her hair to grow again. |
She describes both these events happening after she was taken to Medina when she was 6 years old. She then describes her hair regrowing at roughly the same time period as when she is taken to consummate the marriage at 9 years old. That makes a 2-3 year gap. That's quite a long time to be bereft of hair, isn't it? It suggests that the illness, which she explicity refered in conjunction with the loss of hair, would have something to do with it. PMS would not make her ill even weeks before her first menstrual onset; it occures during the menstrual cycle after maturity.
She did not say that her hair fully regrew, she only stated that it began to regrow.
| Quote: |
| NO she didn't describe herself as being ill for three years. She doesn't give a specific time of how long it took for her hair to grow. Aisha became ill, her hair fell, and then it grew again. The time it took for her hair to grow doesn't mean that she was sick while her hair was growing. She was definitely pubescent at the time. |
I said that she decribes her illness (which seemed to cause her loss of hair) happening when she was 6, and her hair regrowing when she was nine (which I take to represent the end of the illness, since she was able to consummate afterwards). I did not say that she explicitly claimed to have a three year illness. I said that it was implied by the hadith.
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| Nope, no where does it say that it took three years. She became ill when she hit puberty, which was probably around the age of 8, then she waited for her hair to grow. It never said she was sick for three years. If she was, she would have been dead, how can someone be sick for three years? Especially back then? |
Where did you get that idea from? Why would she necessarily be killed by a 3-year illness, and why would it have any particular relevance at that time? There are many illness that last much longer and do not endanger lives, and such illnesses have been prevelant for thousands of years.
EDIT: I am begging to understand where you're coming from now, IW. You're meaning to say that her statement "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years)" is unrelated to the next line refering to her illness. However, that would would the first line rather stranded, don't you think? The only time she even refers to something that could bring us significantly forwards in chronology is "later", which could refer to any possible period of time afterwards.
It's also strange that nowhere in the hadith does she talk about reaching puberty, despite talking in detail about far less important events than something so immensly salient as maturity.
_________________
A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil.
Last edited by Always_Faithful on Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:41 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Btw, I think Aisha got such an extreme sickness because she got an STD from being thighed? Cooties maybe? The child Aisha's body was not used to the germs that adults pass to each other at the time. |
There's no evidence to suggest Mohammed actually thighed Aisha. Her illness could have a myriad of causes, and I don't understand why IW finds it so strange that an illness can last so long, particular considering how prone immature girls are to desease before full immune formation, particularly at that unsanitary time.
_________________
A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil.
Last edited by Always_Faithful on Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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miss ruby
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 6411
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| IntellectualWarfare12 wrote: |
| Baal wrote: |
Here is Abi Fathan, a typical muslim that argues in defence of Muhamad. His defence is a typical defence that we hear all the time: "Aisha was probably not harmed by the sexual relation with the 53 yrs old man, so obviously Muhammad was not a Pedophile". The sad thing is, Abi Fathan actually believes his defence.
The victims today are everyone following the example (Sunna) of Muhammad. All the girls getting betrothed to men older then their fathers and no one raising a finger to help them.
Btw, I think Aisha got such an extreme sickness because she got an STD from being thighed? Cooties maybe? The child Aisha's body was not used to the germs that adults pass to each other at the time. |
Where did Muhammad thigh Aisha? References please...... |
Why don't you address Baal's other points? |
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ABI FATHAN
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Baal wrote: |
Here is Abi Fathan, a typical muslim that argues in defence of Muhamad. His defence is a typical defence that we hear all the time: "Aisha was probably not harmed by the sexual relation with the 53 yrs old man, so obviously Muhammad was not a Pedophile". The sad thing is, Abi Fathan actually believes his defence.
The victims today are everyone following the example (Sunna) of Muhammad. All the girls getting betrothed to men older then their fathers and no one raising a finger to help them.
Btw, I think Aisha got such an extreme sickness because she got an STD from being thighed? Cooties maybe? The child Aisha's body was not used to the germs that adults pass to each other at the time. |
NO VICTIM NO SUSPECT
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"If you show mercy to those who are on the earth, He Who is in the heaven will show mercy to you" (prophet Muhammad) |
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