Contemplations of the Qur'an.

[gupsfu]

[Paris Bontrager]

the verse is this (4.34.men are the supporters of women because of what allah has bestowed on the one more than the other, & for what they have to provide (for them) from their resources. So the righteous women are obedient and protect in the absence of their husbands that which Allah ordains to be protected. but those women in whom you fear recalcitrance, admonish them, then if they persist forsake thier beds, and if they still persist hit them in gentle manner (in no way physically harming). but if they return to obediance do not take punitive measures against them. and surly Allah is the most High, the Supreme)

These translators interpret the verse this way:

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Since the purpose of the Quran is to clarify matters, and since all things are possible with Allah, why couldn't Allah have written this passage in such a way that the translators would all generally agree about it, so that no reasonable man could possibly interpret it as an instruction from God to beat or scourge his wife in those cases? The translators do agree about many other passages. Why would Allah be careless in this passage about such an important matter as beating one's wife? And even with the interpretation you quote, doesn't Allah know that when some men get angry they don't know how to hit women in a gentle manner? Isn't Allah all-knowing?

What about when the husband is acting badly? Is there a passage allowing the woman to hit the man over the head with a frying pan in gentle manner (in no way physically harming)?

Paris

[TheOtherWhiteMeat]

[Guest]

paris !

why do i feel u r contradicting your self.
in your first mail, u wrote as if it was the first time u see quran,
& now, in your next reply, u know many translators of it !

any way, did u read (anna karnena) ???????????????

why am i asking !

yeh, am asking, coz, it was writen in russian as u know, & then was translated to different languages, to english it self, many translators did the job, but only one version of the translations was the prize winning one.
so, why didt the writer write it in an easy way for the others !
no! is it his job, he made it well writen i his language, &of those knowing the language, the one who thinks he give the book it's right he can do it, & we are all humens, every one would use different words to explian the same thing,
open the thesaurus & see how many words are used for the same meaning.

then, we come to quran, there are no versions of Quran, it's only ONE.
but, different translators, like it is translated to english, to french, to africans, & so on, but it's the same quran.
if i trnaslate it to english & after some time, another person, thinks that he can transalte it better than me, of course he will.

then your words
( why couldn't Allah have written this passage in such a way that the translators would all generally agree about it,)

any one can read quran, & understand it, u just need to come out of all the prejedious !
& the pride in ones self & ones old paths.

also, it was given in arabic, i guess that proves something, to understand it's (langauge) miracle, u need to read it in arabic !

next reply would have the part about rebelion husbands. !

[Guest]

[Paris Bontrager]

Hi Eman,

I found this discussion and it seems germaine to what we are discussing.

[Guest]

dear paris,
we have already talked about translations, so, i dont think u can bring some one (who doesnt know the meanning & explinations of Quran) & put his openion just coz it goes with personal whims & wishes.

see this !
in surah nisa (women) All first verses discussed how mercy and justice should be served to women, then in verse 34 there starts to be a balance, what if a wife is disobedient, what should the husband do then? v.34 {men are the maintainers of women…} meaning a husband is the maintainer of his wife and is fully in charge or her well being and spending on her. {…so the good women are the obedient, guarding the unseen…} The two qualifications of a good wife given here are; her obedience to her husband, and keeping her husband's secrets and their problems inside their home without spreading it out to relatives or friends. The verse then explains if a wife is disobedient then the husband should take the following three steps in order; (1) advise the wife. If still disobedient then (2) sleep in a separate bed for a while. If her disobedience has gone over board and beyond anyone's control then (3) hit her. Prophet Mohamed said about the third step that it should never be taken unless under extreme cases of disobedience when all other resorts had failed then, the hitting should be with a toothbrush and should not leave any marks on the skin. Prophet Mohamed never mistreated any of his wives, even when they angered him. He even said: "the best of you is he who is best to his wife".

[Guest]

also,
look at these verses & see the meanning !

(4.19 O you who believe! It is not lawful for you to inherit women forcibly , and do not constraint so that you may take some of what you have given them , unless they commit a flagrant indecency. Otherwise live with them in kindness , but if you are averse to them, then you may be averse to a thing, and Allah creates in it much good for you.)In this verse, a husband who is dissatisfied with his wife and wants to divorce her is forbidden from taking her dowry, unless the wife was found guilty of infidelity. Also in the same verse, God is saying to the husband {…and treat them kindly…}. Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) explained the word "kindly" here does not only mean be fair to your wife and treat her well, but also means be patient with her when she's angry, not only that, but also say kind words to her until she calms down. Then the verse continues by advising the husband to be even more patient with his wife even if he hated her, because something good might turn out that he does not know of, but God knows best {…then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while God has placed abundant good in it}.

(4. 20. And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another and ye have given unto one of them a sum of money ( however great ) , take nothing from it . Would ye take it by the way of calumny and open wrong?.
4.21 and how can you take it when each of you has been privily with the other, and they have taken from you a firm convent? )

In these 2 verses God mentions if a man wants to replace his wife with another one, then he should not take the dowry from the first wife, or that will be a great sin. Then God asks the husband to remember the lovely days he had spent with his first wife and that there was a "firm covenant", or binding agreement between them, by both their consent, to have this marriage. This firm covenant is also considered a promise from the husband to God to treat his wife well and fairly. Due to the sacredness of this "firm covenant" because it is with God, the word "firm covenant" was only used twice in the Qur'an; the first time was the covenant or the promise between God and His prophets to spread God's message on earth, and the second time is the promise between the husband and God to treat his wife fairly and well. So who ever mistreats his wife is like breaking the contract he made with God. This is considered a severe sin.

now, i wounder how will another person change the meanning of kindness !

[Guest]

paris,this (surah)answers many of your questions & comments

[color=indigo]Contemplations of the Qur'an: Al-Nisa, Chapter 4: The Women.

Goal of this chapter:
this chapter talks about women, orphans, slaves, and minorities of non-Muslims living in Muslim countries; in other words, the rights of all weak people, and how to be merciful to them for justice to be served.

Why this chapter was called "The Women"
If Muslims want to be responsible for leading the earth to the right path, then they must be FAIR. The first step of fairness is inside one's own home. This message is for the men. If a man can be fair to his wife inside their home, where no one else can see them except God, then this means he can be fair outside in the society as well. This is why we find the chapter addressing women's rights first, then the rights of other weak classes in the society. As if God is saying to men: before I give you the rule of the earth to fill it with justice, show me your justice in your house first.

Verse 1 {O people, keep your duty to your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created its mate from the same soul, and spread from these two many men and women…}. The chapter started by declaring the unity of the human race and the equality of male and female

Verse 2 {And give to the orphans their property, and do not substitute worthless (things) for (their) good (one)…} meaning, be fair to the orphans as well.

Verse 4 {And give women their dowries as a free gift…} meaning, it is necessary that an amount of money, dowry (mahr in Arabic), be given to every woman taken in marriage, whether she is a free woman, a slave, an orphan or a prisoner of war. Islam introduced this so every woman begins her married life as the owner of some property, and thus marriage is the means of raising her status to equality with her husband.
Verse 9 talks about those who fear about the future of their weak offspring if they die.God is telling them the best wealth is being pious and fair, and then their weak children will be well off because God will assist them.

Laws of Inheritance
In verse 7, Islam introduced the right of inheritance to women, children and near relatives. Among the Arabs, before Islam, all the inheritance used to go to the eldest son. With this reform, the status of women was elevated to equality with men. The actual laws of inheritance are in verses 11 & 12

Treatment of Women
Among pre-Islamic Arabs, when a man died, his elder son, or other relatives, had the right to possess his widow, marrying her to whom ever they pleased without settling a dowry or prohibiting her from marriage altogether. In verse 19 this issue is addressed as not lawful {O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to take women as heritage against their will…}.
In the same verse, a husband who is dissatisfied with his wife and wants to divorce her is forbidden from taking her dowry & God is saying to the husband {…and treat them kindly…}.

During those days there was slavery, so verse 25 explains if a free man cannot afford to marry a free woman, then he can marry a slave, but after her consent and her master's consent and he has to give her a dowry as well. The Arabic word used for "her master" was 'ahlihim' which literally means 'her relatives',so God was merciful to the slave woman, even during her marriage and in the choice of words.

Disagreement between husband and wife
we talked about this in my previous reply.

Justice in the society
In verse 36, God talks about generosity and charity in all society levels, being to the parents, relatives, orphans, needy, fellow traveler, neighbors, companions, neighbors of the companions and even animals.

will Continue in next reply.

[Guest]

chapter (Women)

God's Mercy before Justice
Then God talks about His treatment to us, which is merciful before being fair, verse 40. In other words, a single good deed done by a human being is multiplied several times as a reward from God. One good deed is always multiplied anywhere from 10 times up to 700 times. However, a single wrong deed is counted once and sometimes not counted at all if followed by a good deed or we asked for His forgiveness. Therefore, we are grateful for God's mercy before His fairness.

Jihad - Holy War
The chapter starts to discuss jihad, which is fighting in self-defense. But why this turn and what does it have to do with the theme of the chapter?! Fighting in the way of God will guarantee the rights of the weak on earth.

Why were all the rules of war engagement and self-defense mentioned in the Women Chapter?!
One reason, as mentioned above, is to bring justice and mercy to the weak that cannot defend themselves. Another reason is that women are like the factory that produces men and the brave warriors. Also, a woman can be considered a warrior herself. God stressed on the fact that if a man dies in a war and becomes a martyr once, then a woman might become a martyr a hundred times in her own home if she married the wrong man who mistreats her and is merciless. This way, God is telling these women, you don't have to be on the battlefield to be a hero and a martyr; you will be considered a martyr from your own home.

Justice even during wartime
In verse 94 God orders Muslims not to go to war unless they do their investigation and are sure the enemy was plotting to attack them. Also if the enemy offers peace then Muslims should accept to spare blood shed.

In today's world after the atrocities of world wars I & II, came out the Geneva Conventions to ensure certain ethics during wartime. Such ethics were known to Muslims fourteen hundred years ago because of Prophet Mohamed's (PBUH) saying: "during war don't kill an old man, don't kill a woman, don't kill a child, don't burn trees, don't demolish a home, don't demolish a house of worship (church or synagogue) they contain monks who dedicated their lives to God so leave them".

Hypocrites
Then comes a detailed long description of the hypocrites, why? These types of people are the most dangerous to the society because they prevent the spread of mercy and justice.


The Weak
In verses 97 & 98 God speaks to the weak and asks them not to stay in a land where they are oppressed and unable to practice their religion.

God's Mercies
God asks his people to be merciful like He was merciful of us. Some of God's mercies: (i have'nt included all mentioned, u have to read to know!)
A Muslim is allowed to shorten and combine his prayers during travel, verse 101.

Justice to Minorities of Non Muslims
Verse 105 and 113 speaks of justice among minorities of non-Muslims who live under Muslim rule. The occasion of revelation of these verses was that 3 Muslims conspired to steal a war shield then accuse a Jewish man of theft, then come with witnesses to say they saw him steal. However Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) heard of the conspiracy then released the Jewish man and jailed the 3 Muslims. This incident teaches Muslims to be just amongst all people regardless of their religion and ethnicity.


Allah's Names
Notice this chapter contains the most mention of God's Names at the end of many verses, about 42 times. These names all contain the meanings of merciful, forgiver, knowledgeable, just, powerful and wise, which are all needed characteristics for justice.

[Paris Bontrager]

Thanks, Eman. I gather from your last three posts, that you would disagree with the interpretation of the Koran on these matters proposed by the Arab lawyers:

"In 1987 an Egyptian court, following an interpretation of the Koran proposed by the Syndicate of Arab Lawyers, ruled that a husband had the duty to educate his wife and therefore the right to punish her as he wished."

I think you are correct in many cases, that Islam bends over backwards to protect its women. For example, under Sharia, the punishment for male apostates is execution. But for females, it is only life in prison.

Paris

[Paris Bontrager]

Hi again, Eman. I was just wondering how you react to these verses of the Quran and the New Testament.

Quran: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

New Testament: And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Paris

[Guest]

dear paris,
that verse is true, if the adultry is proven, but here are other verses that sets stern rules for proving it & that people should NEVER take talking about women's chastity for granted, nor talking about it just like that even if a person actually saw it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so in islam, not only asking for punishment of an adultrator is wrong ! NO the whole talk about it is wrong, if no 4 witnesses can prove it. & if such a person talks without witnesses then that (talker) should actually be punished !
( so if juesus christ say who did't sin should cast the first stone)& i do believe him!
in islam we have it as (dont even utter a word about it) !
can you believe that !

here are the verses from surah (al noor- the light)

24.4 . And those who accuse honorable women but bring not four witnesses , scourge them ( with ) eighty stripes and never ( afterward ) accept their testimony . They indeed are evildoers .

24.5 . Save those who afterward repent and make amends . ( For such ) lo! Allah is Forgiving , Merciful .

24.6 . As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves ; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies , ( swearing ) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth ;
24.7 . And yet a fifth , invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie .

24.8 . And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness before Allah four times that the thing he saith is indeed false ,
24.9 . And a fifth ( time ) that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he speaketh truth .

24.11 . Lo! they who spread the slander are a gang among you . Deem it not a bad thing for you ; say , it is good for you . Unto every man of them ( will be paid that which he hath earned of the sin ; and as for him among them who had the greater share therein , his will be an awful doom .

24.12 . Why did not the believers , men and women , when ye heard it , think good of their own folk ; and say : It is a manifest untruth?

24.13 . Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses , they verily are liars in the sight of Allah .

24.14 . Had it not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy unto you in the world and the Hereafter an awful doom had overtaken you for that whereof ye murmured .

24.15 . When ye welcomed it with your tongues , and uttered with your mouths that whereof ye had no knowledge , ye counted it a trifle . In the sight of Allah it is very great .

24.16 . Wherefore , when ye heard it , said ye not : It is not for us to speak of this . Glory be to Thee ( O Allah ) ; This is awful calumny .

24.17 . Allah admonisheth you that ye repeat not the like thereof ever , if ye are ( in truth ) believers .

24.21 . O ye who believe! Follow not the footsteps of the devil . Unto whomsoever followeth the footsteps of the devil , lo! he commandeth filthiness and wrong . Had it not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy unto you , not one of you would ever have grown pure . But Allah causeth whom He will to grow . And Allah is Hearer , Knower .

24.23 . Lo! as for those who traduce virtuous , believing women ( who are ) careless , cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter . Theirs will be an awful doom

24.24 . On the day when their tongues and their hands and their feet testify against them as to what they used to do.

[Guest]

another story about the same, once the second khalifa after the prophit(ummar ibn al katab) who is known for being a just ruler & would not accuse any one wrongly,actually saw a man & women in sin, so he got angry & came to some of his freinds one of them (Ali ibn abi talib), & he saied i am going to punish the people i saw in sin, so (ali) told him, dont contiou talking khalifa ! coz if u continue with out other 3 witnesses i am going to set the punishment on you for talking about a women!
so (ummar) asked him, do you think i would lie about such a thing?
so (Ali) saied, no, but rules are rules !

u can actually se how muslims went by the rules & never crossed them no matter who was it in question!

[Phedippedes]