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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Boromir? You are craving Boromir? Bah, you can have him - I much prefer his brother Faramir (the one in the book, not the film - do you get to read LOTR in SA? It is very christian/catholic in outlook, as Tolkien openly admitted)
PS: If it is Gandalf you favour - well, you can have him, too -Ian McClellan is gay, anyway...  |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Ha! Barbarian! Infidel! Not able to read Tolkien!!!!! Off with your unworthy murtad-head!
Seriously, though: the first 100 Pages of LOTR are not that exciting the first time round, as the real story unfolds very slowly - and Tolkien is not everyone´s cup of tea. Just like Music, if you have an ear for it, it is addictive, if you don´t, you will never get, what it is all about.
Libraries have been written about the different layers of meaning in Tolkien - and it is a whole world of it´s own. Tolkien even created complete languages - you can buy dictionaries of "elvish".
The films are not better than the book (in fact, they are not as good) but they surely offer more "action" and are quicker paced, so you might enjoy them more. I doubt it, though.Probably, as I said, this is just not your thing, dear Cyb.
Last edited by diotima64 on Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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IoshkaFutz
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3895
Location: Caput Mundistan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Cyberite says:
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| I tried reading Tolkien once—never got past page 100. Bored me stiff! What's so great about it? Are the movies any better? |
Bored of the rings... I just can't get into that stuff either... and that worries me because it's the most sold book in the world! And every time I pick it up, only to put it down with a yawn as big as the Midwest, I feel guilty.. What the hell's wrong with me?! |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:19 am Post subject: |
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As I said, Ioshka, not everyone does have an ear for music...  but in your case, I am really astonished - you sing the praises of olive trees and small pleasures (of expensive chocolate  ) - all this is the true hobbit spirit! |
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Sir Galahad
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 1938
Location: Avalon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:05 pm Post subject: Men and Women are Equal in Islam |
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Muslims who claim that women and men are equal according to Islam are either ignorant about their own religion or lying.
According to Islam, a man's worth is that of two women at least.
- Men inherit twice as much
- A man's testimony is equal of the testimony of two women
- Men may hit their wives; wives are not allowed to hit their husbands
- Muslim men can refuse to have sex with their wives in order to show their disapproval; according to the Hadith, women who refuse to have sex with their husbands are cursed by Angels all night.
- Women cannot be judges or rulers according to the sharia
- Men may have sex with their female slaves; women are not allowed to have sex with male slaves or female slaves for that matter.
- Men may divorce their wives on a whim; according to most Muslim scholars women are not allowed to end the marriage without their husband's permission
- After the divorce, the man usually gets the children
- Muslim men may marry non-Muslim women; Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men.
This is not equality. Equality means having the same rights. Equality means being treated with equal respect and being considered of equal value. Islam does not treat women in this manner and therefore it cannot claim equality between the sexes.
Claiming that women and men are equal according to the Islam is an obvious and blatant lie. It is as truthful as claiming that Whites and non-Whites are equal according to the Klu Klux Klan.
_________________
Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities, because it is the quality which guarantees all others. _Winston Churchill
Winter is Coming. - Motto of House Stark |
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yolk
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I am back!
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| Muslim men can refuse to have sex with their wives in order to show their disapproval; according to the Hadith, women who refuse to have sex with their husbands are cursed by Angels all night. |
Good points, Sir Galahad- especially the one above. I never thought of it that way!
No matter how many times Muslims say "men and women are equal," they cannot deny what is written, in black and white, in the Quran. I wonder why they try? |
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Aryan
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Prof says Quran promotes equality between genders
Asma Barlas argued yesterday that, contrary to popular belief, the Quran is a “radically egalitarian and liberating text” and does not condone misogynistic treatment of women.
During her lecture and the sometimes contentious question-and-answer session that followed, Barlas challenged many of the dominant interpretations of the Quran and offered an alternative reading, one that puts patriarchal societies in opposition to true Islam.
“There is not a single verse in the Quran that grants men that power over life and death,” she said.
Barlas, a professor of politics at Ithaca University, spent the first 33 years of her life in Pakistan. Her book “‘Believing Women’ in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Quran” was released in 2002.
“Muslims have not dealt in a fine way with the Quran itself,” she said. “There is a tendency to be crude and arbitrary.”
Barlas said she based her interpretation on her belief that “the Quran as God’s word is eternal and perfect, but our readings of it are not.”
She said that while there are texts that interpret the Quran as supporting a patriarchal society, the Quran itself does not.
“We must read the Quran for its best meaning and as a whole,” Barlas said.
She also argued that Muslims must address the relationship between “knowledge and the means of its production. The Quran was revealed to a patriarchy and interpreted within the context of that patriarchy.”
Barlas’ own reading of the Quran begins, in her words, with “a sound theological understanding of God.” In Barlas’ view, the “just God” described in the Quran — one who would not transgress against others — would not approve of “patriarchies that transgress against the rights of women . . . Divine sovereignty and male sovereignty are not compatible.”
After the lecture, some attendees praised Barlas and her ideas, while others were more critical.
One listener, after saying that he agreed with many of Barlas’ points and even found them “obvious,” complained at length about Barlas’ negative portrayal of the men who created Islamic laws.
“If your goal is reform, why demonize good men?” he demanded.
Barlas responded, “I have not demonized anybody. I have just said that in the formation of the law, many non-Quranic sources have creeped in.”
Another attendee defended the behavior of most Muslim men, saying that the incidents of male violence against women and children that Barlas described were not typical of educated Muslim men.
“Lots of men in Pakistan are perfectly kind to their wives,” Barlas acknowledged. “I’m not interested in quantifying goodness or badness in Muslim societies, but I think their tendency is to oppress women, be it in a genteel or more brutal fashion. Misogyny is not just peasants in the street.”
Barlas, whose talk was sponsored by the Muslim Student Awareness Network, concluded her lecture by broadening her critique from the Islamic world to global society, focusing particularly on the United States.
“Violence against women is universal,” she said. “What I find most discouraging is not Muslim societies that mistrust and abuse women, but rather U.S. support of those regimes.”
She added, “I do not believe in the legitimacy of the Afghan and Iraq wars or the broader neoconservative agenda for the Middle East. I do not believe that the United States has developed a viable policy vis-a-vis Muslims.” |
She has a DAILY FORUMS for Comments on the article Prof says Quran promotes equality between genders. It might be interesting to have a discussion of this topic with the Professor
_________________
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Unable to give anyone a reason to live,
Muhammad gave Muslims a reason to die. And die they do--killing themselves and millions of
innocents in a never ending sea of blood. |
Prophet of Doom by Craig Winn |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you very much, Cyb, for your astoundingly "deep" and quick assessment of a book and it´s readers, that you yourself admit you never read. Stick to the soup can labels, if they seem more interesting to you - the loss is yours, not the book´s.
BTW: I too adore Shakespeare, and do since I was a teenage girl, even before I came to know Tolkien.
Last edited by diotima64 on Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yolk
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm with you, Cyberite. I don't like Tolkien, either. I don't like Science Fiction & Fantasy stuff in general. It just doesn't appeal to me. |
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mohdatif_2000
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| That must be why Muslim men and children are known to treat their mothers like dirt. |
I wonder who told you that .... I for one love my mother more then I love life itself ... and it is Islam which has increased my desire to love and serve her because for me "Paradise lies at her feet" ... For a muslim, a mother is most worthy of his companionship as I said earlier mother comes 1st 2nd and 3rd ....
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If we allow our women to pilot an airplane, why can't you allow your women to drive?
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For your information nomad my mother is the best driver in my family.
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mohdatif_2000 i am from a muslim arabian country and i can tell a lot of stories of how muslims love their wives by beating them and killing them...
you dont love your woman..
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LilyLaila the thing is that if a muslim doesn't follow the teachings of Islam this doesn't mean that Islam is wrong.
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| No matter how many times Muslims say "men and women are equal," they cannot deny what is written, in black and white, in the Quran. I wonder why they try? |
yolk have you read the complete Quran ? |
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yolk
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| yolk have you read the complete Quran ? |
Yes, I have, in Arabic.
Have you done the same? |
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yolk
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and mohdatif, have you been a woman in Islam? So that you can tell me exactly how it feels? To tell me just how "uplifted" you feel as a muslima?
I have. |
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mohdatif_2000
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I have, in Arabic
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yolk there is an elaborate explanation of the Quran verse by verse with quotations from Sahih Hadiths by the name of Tufseer Ibn Qaseer ... it is extremely well written ... I would highly recommend you reading it ...
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Oh, and mohdatif, have you been a woman in Islam? So that you can tell me exactly how it feels? To tell me just how "uplifted" you feel as a muslima?
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If you have converted from a muslim to a non-muslim then it is truly very sad I hope you don't die a non-muslim
Last edited by mohdatif_2000 on Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jim
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Men and Women are Equal in Islam |
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| mohdatif_2000 wrote: |
Islam believes in equality of men and women – ‘Equality’ does not mean
‘Identicality’.
In Islam, the role of a man and woman… it is complimentary, it is not
conflicting - It is that of a partnership - it is not contradictory, so as to
strive for supremacy.
Surah Nisa, Ch. No. 4, Verse No 124, which says.
‘If any of you do deeds of righteousness, whether it be male or
a female and has faith, they shall surely enter Paradise and not the least
injustice shall be done to them’
If you read the Bible in Genesis, Ch. 3, Verse No.16, it states that ‘Unto the woman you shall bear in conception and
in sorrow shall you give birth and your desire shall be of your husband and he shall rule over you’
That means, pregnancy and child birth has been said in the Bible to degrade the women and the labour pain is a sort of punishment.
In fact if you read the Qur’an, pregnancy and child birth have uplifted the women.
If you read Surah Nisa, Ch.4, Verse No.1, it says… ‘Respect the womb that bore you’.
A similar thing is mentioned in Surah Ahqaf, Ch.46, Verse No.15…
‘We have enjoined on the human beings to be kind to his parents’.
A women in Islam, if she wishes to work she can work - There is no text in the Qur’an or the authentic Hadith which prevents or makes it prohibited for a woman to do any work, as long as it is not unlawful, as long as it is within the preview of the Islamic Shariah, as long as she maintains her Islamic dress code.
But natural, she cannot take up jobs, which exhibit her beauty and body -
Like for example, modeling and film acting, and such kind of jobs.
A woman in Islam has got no financial obligations - The financial
obligation is laid on the shoulders of the man in the family - Therefore she need not work for her livelihood.
But in genuine cases, where there are financial crisis in which both the ends do not meet, she has the option of working .
Here too, no one can force her to work - She works out of her own, absolute free will.
Qur’an not only prohibits female infanticide, it rebukes at the thought of you rejoicing at the birth of a male child and getting saddened at the birth of a female child.
And there’s a Hadith which says, that ‘Anyone who up brings 2 daughters properly and takes good care and brings them up with love and affection, they will enter Paradise’
According to a Hadith, of our beloved Prophet it said that, ‘In the presence of the Prophet, once a man kissed his son and placed him on his lap but did not do the same to his daughter. The Prophet immediately objected and said that you are unjust - You should
have even kissed your daughter and placed her on the other lap’.
its mentioned in Surah Nisa, Ch. 4, Verse No.34 which says -
‘The men are the protectors and maintainers of the women, for Allah (SWT) has given one of them more strength than the other and they give them their means’
People say the word ‘Kawwam’ means, ‘one degree higher in superiority’ - But actually the word ‘Kawwam’ comes from the root word ‘Ikamah’ .
‘Ikamah’ means for example ‘when you give the Ikamah before prayers - You stand up’.
So ‘Ikamah’ means to standup - so the word ‘Kawwam’ means one degree higher in responsibility, not one degree higher in superiority.
Even if you read the commentary of ‘Ibne-Kathir’ - He says that the word ‘Kawwam’ means one degree higher in responsibility, not one degree higher in superiority.
It is mentioned in Surah Nisa, Ch.4, Verse No.19, that… ‘Treat your wives on a footing of equity and kindness even if you dislike her - For you may be disliking a thing for which Allah has made good for you’.
Even if you dislike your wife you have to treat her kindly and with equity
It is compulsory that the man and women both should agree to marry No one - not even the father can force their daughter to marry against her wishes.
There’s a Hadith in Sahih Bukhari, Volume No. 7, Ch. No. 43, Hadith No. 69, which says
‘that a lady she was forced by her father to marry against her
wishes’ - And she went to the Prophet and the Prophet invalidated the
marriage’ |
Another funny thread, all the context in the world cannot undo the damage the koran does to itself
I posted this before
BTW showing bad things in the Bible proves nothing as most people on this site are not Chirstians
the only thing GOd says is that men and women are equal in the sense that both will be rewarded by Allah if they submit to Islam
Never does it say women get the exact same rights in day to day society
these are facts you can't deny
I also must add that isnt it sad how muslims have to twist and turn their way through the koran, making up crap while they deny the obvious written before them, its not gonna work
The Koran is supposed to be a book that "makes things clear" why would God send down an insturction manual to mankind that is so poorly written and vague in many of its meanings, but one thing is clear men and women do not have the exact same rights in Islam
You are a brainwashed fool if you believe that, there are tons of Hadiths and verses which prove otherwise, just because the prophet said if you raise 2 daughters well you will get paradise does not mean men and women are equal only a dumb ass would conclude that
1) muslim women inherit half that of men (it might have been ok in the 7th century since men were the main economic providers of the family so they had to spend more money, but this does not make sence in our world today)
2)a womens testimoney is worth half that of a man
3)Women have to constantly cover themselves up to keep men from lusting after them( how stupid is that, that fact truly shows the kind of savages this religon was designed for.)
4)Surah 4:34 - Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is high and supreme
5) If men comit some act of indecency
"4.16": And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Now look at the womens punishment
"4.15": And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
Even though women have to have 4 witnesses to testify against them, they still get a harsh punishment
Also in Islam a man can divorse his wife , he does not need the permission of anyone, nor is he required to consult anyone, a women may not do that, although she may seek a divorse she must involve some sort of religous 3rd party to rule in her favour
more proof
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet (p.) said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind." (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 3, hadith 826, p. 502)
Shahih Bukhari 1.6.301)
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
"O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Also Men are allowed to have sex with captive and slave women, this is not only an insult to women but to humanity in general, and dont say "it was the custom back then" well so was worshipping Idols, anyone would expect better standards from a prophet and religon that was for all of mankind in all times.
Admit it buddy you are in denial, I mean its so damn obvious just read the koran and hadith for yourself without a mullah standing over your head sanatizing it as you go along, but most muslims are so brainwashed its not even funny.
Finally muslims always say "making your women naked and blah blah blah gives them no rights" well in the west women have a choice, no one makes anyone naked I think Americans are a lot more conservative then you think.
Dont you know what just happened on Monday night Football when that lady was shown in a towel right before the game, or the Janet Jackson mishap at the superbowl, didn't you see all the outrage from parents and ABC had to pay fines in both cases.
No one is allowed to walk around naked you would be arrested for that, true a women can wear the kind of cloths she likes and no man can touch her unless she lets him.
Last edited by jim on Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:38 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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yolk
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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mohdatif_2000, maybe you didn't understand me, I read and understand Arabic (and write and speak it). I have read Quran in Arabic, and I have read tafsir. I've done all the necessary research on islam and I'm done.
About me dying as a non-muslim, that doesn't scare me. If I don't believe in Islam, how can I believe that I'll go to hell?
And if you believe I'll go to hell, well, you're entitled to your opinion. There are loads of people who think YOU'LL go to hell for being muslim. |
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