|
Attention: Year 2009 is here
Wishing a very Happy New Year to all members of FFI. Our new and improved site is ready. To visit main site, click at faithfreedom.org and to visit our new forum, click at forum09.faithfreedom.org and register again. Do not worry about your old forum posts and PM, everything is saved here till 31st December, 2008 for future references.
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ex Apostate
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 248
|
 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:13 am Post subject: How 'Error about Concept of Trinity in Quran' is wrong |
 |
|
Non muslims and Christian missionaries for quite sometime have been saying that Muhammad(PBUH) 'misunderstood' the true concept of Trinity, i.e, which says the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit constitute the trinitarian godhead but Quran says Mary is part of Trinity so this is error in quran
The following verses in the Qur'an say about Mary being the part of Trinity.(Sina called this verse an Absurdity in the site)
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]
But accusers failed to quote another verse which says
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]
Commenting on verse 4:171, George Sale says:
Namely, God, Jesus and Mary. For the eastern writers mention a sect of Christians which held the Trinity to be composed of those three; but it is allowed that this heresy has been long since extinct. The passage, however, is equally levelled against the Holy Trinity, according to the doctrine of the orthodox Christians, who, as Al Beidawi acknowledges, believe the divine nature to consist of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; by the Father, understanding God's essence, by the Son, his knowledge, and by the Holy Ghost, his life
George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, J B Lippincott Company, London, p. 81.
As far as Quranic Verse 5:116 is concerned it is for the Christian sect of Mariamites (which is probably non existent now).See
George Sale in the preliminary discourse to his translation of The Koran writes:
But, to be more particular as to the nation we are now writing of, Arabia was of old famous for heresies; which might be in some measure attributed to the liberty and independency of the tribes. Some of the Christians of that nation believed the soul died with the body, and was to be raised again with it at the last day: these Origen is said to have convinced. Among the Arabs it was that the heresies of Ebion, Beryllus, and the Nazareans, and also that of the Collyridians, were broached, or at least propagated; the latter introduced the Virgin Mary for God, or worshipped her as such offering her a sort of twisted cake called collyris, whence the sect had its name.
This notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was also believed by some at the Council of Nice, who said there were two gods besides the Father viz. Christ and the virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified; which goes but little beyond the popish superstition in calling her the complement of the Trinity, as if it were imperfect without her. This foolish imagination is justly condemned in the Koran as idolatrous, and gave a handle to Mohammed to attack the Trinity itself.
George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, J B Lippincott Company, London, p. 25.
Again there is no doubt that Mary was used to be worshipped like goddess in initial times
Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall in his book The Original Sources Of The Qur'an says under Muhammad's Misconception Of The Doctrine Of The Trinity.
...Muhammad heard certain Christians make that there are three Gods, that is to say God the Father, Mary, and Jesus. It is perfectly plain from these verses that Muhammad really did believe that the Christian doctrine inculcated belief in three separate Divine persons, Jesus and Mary being two of them. But our third quotation implies that Muhammad - probably from what he had seen of "Christian" worship - thought that the order was Jesus, Mary, God, or Mary, Jesus, God. No reasonable man will wonder at the indignation with which Muhammad in God's name abjures such blasphemy. We must all feel regret that the idolatrous worship offered to Mary led Muhammad to believe that people who called her "Queen of Heaven" and "Mother of God" really attributed to her Divine attributes.
Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall, The Original Sources Of The Qur'an, 1905, Society For The Promotion Of Christian Knowledge, London, pp. 180-181.
Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire says:
The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.
E. Gibbon, The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire, 1994, Penguin Books, p. 177.
The above verse of the Qur'an 4:171, For Allah is One God, is enough to refute any such bizarre argument. It is equally clear even in the Old Testament & The New Testament that the God is one God without any partners.
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." [Isaiah 43:10-11]
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD"
[Deuteronomy 6:4]
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." [Mark 12:29-30]
The above verses speak of themselves.
For those who accuse of error in Quran are themselves not clear about the concept of Trinity see
W. M. Watt ponders in his book Muhammad At Medina:
One of the remarkable features of the relationship between Muslims and Christians is that neither Muhammad nor any of the Companions seems to have been aware of some of the fundamental Christian doctrines. Apart from the reference to the crucifixion (which is primarily a denial of Jewish claim), and the mention of the twelve apostles as the 'helpers' of Jesus, and of the miracles of healing and raising the dead, there is nothing in the Qur'an about the adult life and teaching of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. The early Muslims gave Jesus the title Messiah (Masih) but did not appreciate that it involved a claim to be 'God's anointed'. They did not understand the distinctive work of Jesus in redeeming the world and atoning for its sins. They did not realize that the Holy Spirit was regarded by Christians as the third person in the Godhead. It is indeed remarkable that there should have been among the Muslims over such a wide area this absence of knowledge of Christianity. The blame for this state of affairs probably rests on those Christians with whom Muhammad and his Companions were in contact, who may themselves have had little appreciation of the doctrines mentioned. Nevertheless the 'absence of knowledge' remains, and in the thirteen centuries since Muhammad's time few Muslims have done anything to fill the lacuna.
W. M. Watt, Muhammad At Medina, 1956, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, p. 320.
Finally, it is quite clear that the doctrine of Trinity evolved and took its final shape nearly 350 years of CE. But before that:
Christianity in the second and third centuries was in a remarkable state of flux. To be sure, at no point in its history has the religion constituted a monolith. But the diverse manifestations of its first three hundred years - whether in terms of social structures, religious practices, or ideologies - have never been replicated.
Nowhere is this seen more clearly than in the realm of theology. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in only one God; others, however, claimed that there were two Gods; yet others subscribed to 30, or 365, or more. Some Christians accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as a revelation of the one true God, the sacred possession of all believers; others claimed that the scriptures had been inspired by an evil deity. Some Christians believed that God had created the world and was soon going to redeem it; others said that God neither had created the world nor had ever had any dealings with it. Some Christians believed that Christ was somehow both a man and God; others said that he was a man, but not God; others claimed that he was God but not a man; others insisted that he was a man who had been temporarily inhabited by God. Some Christians believed that Christ's death had brought about the salvation of the world; others claimed that his death had no bearing on salvation; yet others alleged that he had never even died.
B. D. Ehrman, The Orthdox Corruption Of Scripture: The Effect Of Early Christological Controversies On The Text Of The New Testament, 1993, Oxford University Press, London & New York, p. 3.
Assistance taken from
George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, J B Lippincott Company, London
Article 'Mary and Trinity' of Mustafa Ahmed & M S M Saifullah
_________________
Nobel Prize winner evolutionist Albert Szent-Gyorgyi acknowledged that time,chance and random mutations could never produce the numerous symbiotic relationships we see all around us
Last edited by Ex Apostate on Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:50 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
To be honest, though your argument is crap, I would agree that Mohammed or the Muslim authors of the Quran would've had to been complete idiots not to know the Catholic concept of trinity. Unless it was just a huge error that was supported out of religious delusion (which I can't rule out) there was probably just an unspoken understanding of trinity.
However, your argument tries like so many Muslim contentions to draw a long line from point A to point B neglecting the material that comes between. The 'spirit' is presented here in a positive light, making no reference to the 'spirit' of god being part of God. The word of God is also included in this list, negating this list as group of likely components in the trinity. However, the veneration of Mary is starkly objected to. My theory is that the author assumed the trinity was an understood concept, but also wanted to point out that the veneration of Mary was equally in error. Afterward, in Islamic theology the Muslim commentators failing to study Christianity assumed Mary was originally part of the trinity, thus presenting an embarrassing error in Islamic thinking.
Also, there's no documented gnostic eastern sect known to have held Mary as the a god, equal to Jesus or part of a trinity. The 'spirit' in Greek is recognized as a feminine term, though and the veneration of Mary (the mother of god) among Christians in general is and was strong.
There are other errors in the Quran in the concept of Jesus, though. For one thing, Mary wasn't Moses sister, or the daughter of Imran. The virgin birth, though clearly appealing to the Muslim authors is the most pagan concept within Christianity. Jesus never wrote a book. Then there's the ambiguity of the death of Jesus which is very telling. In the Quran, Christians are seen as a target audience because they were willing to reject the Torah in favor of the Gospel, thus they were men with understanding. But they are also accused of being friend of the Jews (totally historically inaccurate at the time, yet a fine prophecy for the future as Muslims now lump Christians and Jews, mortal enemies into one faceless opposition, giving them a reason to unite) because they kept the Torah over the Quran which is so many ways contradicted the Torah and Gospel.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aragorn
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 453
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:55 am Post subject: Re: How 'Error about Concept of Trinity in Quran' is wrong |
|
|
| Ex Apostate wrote: |
Non muslims and Christian missionaries for quite sometime have been saying that Muhammad(PBUH) 'misunderstood' the true concept of Trinity, i.e, which says the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit constitute the trinitarian godhead but Quran says Mary is part of Trinity so this is error in quran
The following verses in the Qur'an say about Mary being the part of Trinity.(Sina called this verse an Absurdity in the site)
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]
But accusers failed to quote another verse which says
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]
Commenting on verse 4:171, George Sale says:
Namely, God, Jesus and Mary. For the eastern writers mention a sect of Christians which held the Trinity to be composed of those three; but it is allowed that this heresy has been long since extinct. The passage, however, is equally levelled against the Holy Trinity, according to the doctrine of the orthodox Christians, who, as Al Beidawi acknowledges, believe the divine nature to consist of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; by the Father, understanding God's essence, by the Son, his knowledge, and by the Holy Ghost, his life
George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, J B Lippincott Company, London, p. 81.
As far as Quranic Verse 5:116 is concerned it is for the Christian sect of Mariamites (which is probably non existent now).See
George Sale in the preliminary discourse to his translation of The Koran writes:
But, to be more particular as to the nation we are now writing of, Arabia was of old famous for heresies; which might be in some measure attributed to the liberty and independency of the tribes. Some of the Christians of that nation believed the soul died with the body, and was to be raised again with it at the last day: these Origen is said to have convinced. Among the Arabs it was that the heresies of Ebion, Beryllus, and the Nazareans, and also that of the Collyridians, were broached, or at least propagated; the latter introduced the Virgin Mary for God, or worshipped her as such offering her a sort of twisted cake called collyris, whence the sect had its name.
This notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was also believed by some at the Council of Nice, who said there were two gods besides the Father viz. Christ and the virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified; which goes but little beyond the popish superstition in calling her the complement of the Trinity, as if it were imperfect without her. This foolish imagination is justly condemned in the Koran as idolatrous, and gave a handle to Mohammed to attack the Trinity itself.
George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, J B Lippincott Company, London, p. 25.
Again there is no doubt that Mary was used to be worshipped like goddess in initial times
Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall in his book The Original Sources Of The Qur'an says under Muhammad's Misconception Of The Doctrine Of The Trinity.
...Muhammad heard certain Christians make that there are three Gods, that is to say God the Father, Mary, and Jesus. It is perfectly plain from these verses that Muhammad really did believe that the Christian doctrine inculcated belief in three separate Divine persons, Jesus and Mary being two of them. But our third quotation implies that Muhammad - probably from what he had seen of "Christian" worship - thought that the order was Jesus, Mary, God, or Mary, Jesus, God. No reasonable man will wonder at the indignation with which Muhammad in God's name abjures such blasphemy. We must all feel regret that the idolatrous worship offered to Mary led Muhammad to believe that people who called her "Queen of Heaven" and "Mother of God" really attributed to her Divine attributes.
Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall, The Original Sources Of The Qur'an, 1905, Society For The Promotion Of Christian Knowledge, London, pp. 180-181.
Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire says:
The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.
E. Gibbon, The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire, 1994, Penguin Books, p. 177.
The above verse of the Qur'an 4:171, For Allah is One God, is enough to refute any such bizarre argument. It is equally clear even in the Old Testament & The New Testament that the God is one God without any partners.
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." [Isaiah 43:10-11]
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD"
[Deuteronomy 6:4]
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." [Mark 12:29-30]
The above verses speak of themselves.
For those who accuse of error in Quran are themselves not clear about the concept of Trinity see
W. M. Watt ponders in his book Muhammad At Medina:
One of the remarkable features of the relationship between Muslims and Christians is that neither Muhammad nor any of the Companions seems to have been aware of some of the fundamental Christian doctrines. Apart from the reference to the crucifixion (which is primarily a denial of Jewish claim), and the mention of the twelve apostles as the 'helpers' of Jesus, and of the miracles of healing and raising the dead, there is nothing in the Qur'an about the adult life and teaching of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. The early Muslims gave Jesus the title Messiah (Masih) but did not appreciate that it involved a claim to be 'God's anointed'. They did not understand the distinctive work of Jesus in redeeming the world and atoning for its sins. They did not realize that the Holy Spirit was regarded by Christians as the third person in the Godhead. It is indeed remarkable that there should have been among the Muslims over such a wide area this absence of knowledge of Christianity. The blame for this state of affairs probably rests on those Christians with whom Muhammad and his Companions were in contact, who may themselves have had little appreciation of the doctrines mentioned. Nevertheless the 'absence of knowledge' remains, and in the thirteen centuries since Muhammad's time few Muslims have done anything to fill the lacuna.
W. M. Watt, Muhammad At Medina, 1956, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, p. 320.
Finally, it is quite clear that the doctrine of Trinity evolved and took its final shape nearly 350 years of CE. But before that:
Christianity in the second and third centuries was in a remarkable state of flux. To be sure, at no point in its history has the religion constituted a monolith. But the diverse manifestations of its first three hundred years - whether in terms of social structures, religious practices, or ideologies - have never been replicated.
Nowhere is this seen more clearly than in the realm of theology. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in only one God; others, however, claimed that there were two Gods; yet others subscribed to 30, or 365, or more. Some Christians accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as a revelation of the one true God, the sacred possession of all believers; others claimed that the scriptures had been inspired by an evil deity. Some Christians believed that God had created the world and was soon going to redeem it; others said that God neither had created the world nor had ever had any dealings with it. Some Christians believed that Christ was somehow both a man and God; others said that he was a man, but not God; others claimed that he was God but not a man; others insisted that he was a man who had been temporarily inhabited by God. Some Christians believed that Christ's death had brought about the salvation of the world; others claimed that his death had no bearing on salvation; yet others alleged that he had never even died.
B. D. Ehrman, The Orthdox Corruption Of Scripture: The Effect Of Early Christological Controversies On The Text Of The New Testament, 1993, Oxford University Press, London & New York, p. 3.
Assistance taken from the article 'Mary and Trinity' of Mustafa Ahmed & M S M Saifullah |
Do I care about the trinity - nope I'm not christian 
Do I care about islam - nope its full of rape and illicit sex with concubines and murder of unbelievers - not my cup of tea. 
Bring me a religion of peace - A RELIGION THAT STATES NOT TO ATTACK UNLESS IN DEFENCE - I DONT WANT MUSLIM OPINIONS I WANT AUTHENTIC VERSES AND HADITH TO SHOW THAT ISLAM IS PEACEFUL 
_________________
I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn
Im just a nomal kaffir trying to react to Islam's kaffirism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sir Galahad
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 1938
Location: Avalon
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:06 am Post subject: How 'Error about Concept of Trinity in Quran' is wrong |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Christianity in the second and third centuries was in a remarkable state of flux. To be sure, at no point in its history has the religion constituted a monolith. But the diverse manifestations of its first three hundred years - whether in terms of social structures, religious practices, or ideologies - have never been replicated. |
Dear ExApostate,
Muhammad did not live in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. He lived in the 7th century. In the 7th century the majority of Christians did not believe that Mary was part of the trinity. However, the Quran claims all Christians believe this. If it had been revealed by an omnicient God, it would have stated that some small groups of Christians believe that Mary is part of the trinity, but that most Christians believe otherwise.
Moreover, the trinity states God has three aspects: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It does not state that there are three gods. This is another misinterpretation made by the author of the Quran. Similarly, Muslim believe Allah has 99 titles by which he likes to be called. This clearly does not mean that Muslims believe in 99 or 100 gods. Moreover, the Quran states that the Jews believe that God has a son called Uzair, which is obviously incorrect.
You are also shooting yourself in the foot by quoting W.M. Watt:
| Quote: |
| The early Muslims gave Jesus the title Messiah (Masih) but did not appreciate that it involved a claim to be 'God's anointed'. |
Watt clearly states that the early Muslims believed that Jesus was the Mesiah, but were ignorant about what this title signifies. Watt clearly does not believe Muhammad received a divine revelation, but blames ignorant Christians for the fact the Muhammad and his companions are clueless about the trinity and other Christian ideas.
The essay you quoted cannot disprove that the Quran is wrong and/or ignorant about the following things:
- What most Christians believe about the trinity
- The meaning of the word "trinity"
- The meaning of the word "Messiah"
- The fact that the Jews do not believe God has a son.
Even if the Quran was not blatantly wrong about Christian and Judiac doctrine, this still would not prove it was divinely inspired. It is emberassing that you lack the creativity to write an essay on this topic yourself and that you lack the good sense to quote essays that do not undermine the credibility of the Quran.
_________________
Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities, because it is the quality which guarantees all others. _Winston Churchill
Winter is Coming. - Motto of House Stark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ex Apostate
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 248
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sir Galahad wrote: |
| It is emberassing that you lack the creativity to write an essay on this topic yourself |
.
I couldn't get you
If assistance has been taken from some essay on some special topic which was quoted also, what is harm in it and how it is embarrassing.
| Quote: |
| Assistance taken from the article 'Mary and Trinity' of Mustafa Ahmed & M S M Saifullah |
| Sir Galahad wrote: |
| you lack the good sense to quote essays that do not undermine the credibility of the Quran |
I couldn't get you
_________________
Nobel Prize winner evolutionist Albert Szent-Gyorgyi acknowledged that time,chance and random mutations could never produce the numerous symbiotic relationships we see all around us
Last edited by Ex Apostate on Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Christian2
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 375
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:24 pm Post subject: Ex Apostate, I believe that the Qur'an supports the Trinity |
|
|
I believe that the Qur'an supports the concept of the Trinity:
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
In this verse, you see that God has a personality – "messenger of Allah"
He also has a word – "and His word"
He also has a spirit – "and a spirit from Him"
This is the creed of the Trinity and what Christians believe. It does not proclaim three gods, but it proclaims that there is One God and no God but Him.
Take a look at this verse in the Qur'an:
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). Sura 3:45
Again God has a Word.
Also take a look at this verse in the Qur'an:
Sura al-Ma'ida 5:110, "Allah said to Jesus, 'Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favour I had bestowed on you and your mother, how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit, so that you preached to men in your cradle and in the prime of manhood."
Here the Holy Spirit of God is active and proceeding from God: "I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit."
Quote from: the theological scholar Al-Shaikh Muhammad al- Hariri al-Bayyumi who said, "The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Allah (Kitab al-Ruh wa Maiyyyatuha).
What do we have here? God, God's Word and God's Holy Spirit. Not three Gods, but One God. Basically that is the concept of the Holy Trinity.
Shalom |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Huh, good eye. The quran was only further defining the trinity for those who didn't understand how it worked. Don't say three, say all of this is one.
I don't actually think that was the intention, but using the Qurans own screwiness it clearly could be interpreted as such.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ex Apostate
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 248
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
I believe that the verse 5:116 and 4:171 which is catering all permutations of trinity existing at that time,originally be in one chapter and located close to each other but as I admitted in
| Ex Apostate wrote: |
| At this forum I also admit this thing that Quran was also not compiled in a correct sequence by Muslim rulers ( I am not sure it was done out of ignorance or out of dishonesty) .............So alot of verses gives you wrong message because of being not placed in correct order. |
Islam is harmed by muslim themselves
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2513&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
This gives oppotunity to raise question and accusers failed to quote both verses.Again I believe that major responsiblity of this lapse falls on the shoulder of muslims
_________________
Nobel Prize winner evolutionist Albert Szent-Gyorgyi acknowledged that time,chance and random mutations could never produce the numerous symbiotic relationships we see all around us
Last edited by Ex Apostate on Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Maybe. Or something like that.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ex Apostate
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 248
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
So the objection is killed!
_________________
Nobel Prize winner evolutionist Albert Szent-Gyorgyi acknowledged that time,chance and random mutations could never produce the numerous symbiotic relationships we see all around us |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aragorn
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 453
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Do I care about the trinity - nope I'm not christian
Do I care about islam - nope its full of rape and illicit sex with concubines and murder of unbelievers - not my cup of tea.
Bring me a religion of peace - A RELIGION THAT STATES NOT TO ATTACK UNLESS IN DEFENCE - I DONT WANT MUSLIM OPINIONS I WANT AUTHENTIC VERSES AND HADITH TO SHOW THAT ISLAM IS PEACEFUL
_________________
I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn
Im just a nomal kaffir trying to react to Islam's kaffirism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ex Apostate wrote: |
| So the objection is killed! |
Its too obscure. It could go either way. But regardless of the conjecture it still reflects poorly on the authors of the Quran.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Either way it was aimed at creatong division and emnity.
What did it really matter what or how other people perceived "god", what threat to Mohammed or "god" actually existed?.........I say none of any significance............It appears Mohammed merely had ambitions to build a following for the purposes of personal gain.
To that end for Mohammed to take on the guise and image of "prophet" was a more powerful instrument than merely being seen as a political opportunist and war-lord.
Evil and cunning was Mohammed and his co-conspirators shared the same qualities. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
It was a passing amatuer attempt to criticize a rival religion. I have Mormon acquaintances. I think their religion is nuts, but I frequently hear them accused of all sorts of things that are simply not even considered outside of refuting the critics.
The need for Christians to identify the three components of God... that's crazy. But accusing them of saying 'god is three' is in error.
Anyway, yeah, the authors were simply doing a poor job at discounting another religion.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
