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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:10 pm Post subject: On Sufism and the Death of Islam |
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On Sufism and the Death of Islam
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own.
Last edited by Ali Sina on Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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The following is an email received from B. Wise, PhD
I read your answer to 'Never a Dhimmi' with great interest.
You are the only person I know (besides my own small self)
who has publicly stated that the current direction of Islam
is likely to lead to a global conflagration, as a result of
which Islam will be discredited.
Here's my reasoning:
In 1910, most Europeans believed the oldest lie, "Dulce
et decorum est, pro patria more." They marched to WWI singing.
The slaughter from 1914-1918 was not enough to change their
minds. It took 1939-45 to convince them that enthusiastic
nationalism was the greatest evil. They retain that attitude to
this day, and view Americans' patriotism as one of their
most offensive characteristics (along with self confidence,
ignorance, and obesity).
How many Muslims today believe "Dulce et decorum est,
pro Allah more"? Take the slaughter of 1914-18, multiply
by the world's increase in population, and you get an estimate
of how bad it could get WITHOUT changing minds. Take
the 1914-45 numbers, multiply by the increase, and you
get an estimate of what might be enough to change minds.
Notice that
(A) both those numbers are frighteningly high,
(B) nuclear weapons or smallpox could easily drive the
toll much higher, faster than attitudes can change, and
(C) I said nothing racist, anti-Arab, etc. As populations
are pretty impervious to reason and facts, I just observe
how much military disaster has been necessary in the
past to change European minds, and assume that other
populations will behave pretty similarly.
--
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own.
Last edited by Ali Sina on Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Americans' patriotism as one of their most offensive characteristics (along with self confidence, ignorance, and obesity |
Yap...., Big Mac.... they need excercise..
yeezevee |
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Scott
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 1391
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:56 am Post subject: |
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I have the same question...
how many deaths will it take for people to see what is1am is really about and finally get a clue?
Scott
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rationalist, peace through education |
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doubtless
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Even the sufis of today are not acceptable as muslims unless they tow the line as did Rumi and other sufis of yore.
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http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1092853,00050004.htm
Lankan Muslim sect attacked for spreading 'Hindu' ideas
PK Balachanddran
Colombo, November 6
Life in the Muslim stronghold of Katthankudy in eastern Sri Lanka was brought to a standstill for five days recently as the orthodox Jamiat- ul-Ulema indulged in violent protests against a "Sufi" group, which was allegedly spreading "Hindu" ideas.
The followers of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema demolished the Rahmaniya and Ibrahimiya madrasas (theological schools) in Katthankudy, alleging that these schools, run by the Sufi preacher AJ Abdur Rauf Mowlavi, were spreading Hindu ideas and rituals among the Muslims, especially the young.
What happens in Katthankudy is critical for Muslim society and politics in Sri Lanka because it is the only completely Muslim town in Sri Lanka. Set in the eastern district of Batticaloa, it is believed to have the largest number of mosques per square kilometre in the world. There are 65 mosques in this small town.
In the last ten years, under the influence of the Saudi Arabian Wahabi sect, Katthankudy has become an exceptionally orthodox place in Sri Lanka where practically every woman, no matter of what age group, is shrouded from head to foot. There is also some Pakistani influence with shops and streets named after Mohammad Ali Jinnah.
Since the late 1970s, the entrenched Jamiat-ul-Ulema group has been viewing with alarm the activities of the charismatic Abdur Rauf Mowlavi and his band of Sufis.
Rauf Mowlavi's followers say that Sufism is an accepted creed in Islam. The attackers, who are orthodox Wahabis, cannot claim to be the sole arbiters of what is Islamic and what is not. The Wahabis have no right to impose their hegemony on them, they insist. At any rate, Wahabis came to Katthankudy only 10 years ago.
But the Jamiat-ul-Ulema activists say that their quarrel is not with Sufism, which they accept is Islamic, but the "Hindu" character of the group and what it is doing to take away youths from genuine Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia.
According to ULM Haaris Fadahi, General Secretary of the Katthankudy Jamiat- ul-Ulema, what Abdur Rauff Mowlavi is saying is that God has a form, is both male and female, is everywhere and in everything, and that Prophet Mohammad was but an incarnation of God who came to set right things in the world.
"Rauf Mowlavi has read the Tamil Nadu poets Abdur Rahman and Kannadasan. One can see the influence of Kannadasan's Tamil work, Arthamulla Indumadham. Abdur Rauf Mowlavi incorporates these in his lectures and says that it is Islam!" Haaris Fadahi said.
According to him, Rauf Mowlavi has sanctioned the use of the Kutthuvilakku (the traditional tall oil lamp made of brass) in Islamic worship. Lighting the lamp, especially the Kutthuvilakku, is peculiar to South Indian Hindu temple worship. He has also advocated the use of lamps with seven wicks, with the number seven having clear Hinduistic connotations.
"These ideas and forms crept into Sri Lankan Islam because of its traditional links with India and Pakistan. Earlier, many preachers came from Tamil Nadu and they brought with them Indian practices. But the current trend here in Sri Lanka is to go back to pristine Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia," Haaris Fadahi said.
He argues that a Sufi is a person who has reached a very high level of spirituality, and that Sufism is sanctioned only for such spiritually evolved persons. It cannot be arrogated by ordinary folk.
Rauf Mowlavi's arguments and claims to adherence to Sufism were referred to Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband, in India, and an Islamic University in Pakistan, and both ruled that they were not at all Islamic, Haaris Fadahi said. When the matter was brought before the All Ceylon Jamiat-ul-Ulema in 1979, it excommunicated the Mowlavi. But this had had no impact on his activities.
However, the followers of Abdur Rauf Mowlavi say that his utterances are well within the bounds of Islam and are based on the Quran and the Hadees.
HM Ameer Ali Asiriyar, a follower of Abdur Rauf Mowlavi, says that the doctrine that God is everywhere and in every direction, and that God's brilliance is reflected in everything is sanctioned by the Quran and other accepted Islamic writings and that Rauf Mowlavi can prove it in a debate.
He had said that he was ready for a three-hour presentation and a two-hour question and answer session before Islamic theologians at the Bandaranaike Memorial Conference Hall in Colombo. If he was not able to convince the learned persons assembled there, he was willing to be killed on the spot. But nobody took the challenge, Ameera Ali Asiriyar said.
To this, Haaris Fadahi said that Rauf Mowlana had been challenged to come for a debate in Katthankudy, but he was not available. Even now, only his followers were attending the negotiations to restore peace in the town. Rauf Mowana was in hiding, he alleged. |
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."
Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!" |
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scaredguy
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Sufism and islam contradict each other strongly.
Sufis use a lot of deceitful sweet words to spread sufi beliefs and then the agents of islam come and reap the harvest through their strong-arm tactics.
Common people do not know the big difference between sufism and islam. The sufi-ised people thus get trapped in islam, a one-way life-long prison for generations to come.
Most of the sufis did not use violence hence everyone comes to the false conclusion that islam spread non-violently. But the sufis did and do use deceit (using sweet-sounding words).
Sufis are willy-nilly the soft spearheads of islamic fascism and imperialism. |
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TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Sufism, in its real form is like Kabbalah, Sihkism, and Gnostic Christianity. It used established and often enforced religion as a vessel in order to exist in disguise. For 'real' Muslims this is of no use. If Mohammed isn't the be all, if Muslims aren't superior over the kafir, etc... then what's the point?
I liked that guys e-mail about Islam going the path of passionate nationalism. I'd like to think that's true. However, I'm watching a History Channel special on Alexander the Great and Arab/Eastern theists of the sort in motion today seem to have been pre-Islam.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
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bushbadee
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 2294
Location: Account Retired
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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(C) I said nothing racist, anti-Arab,
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In some places the words "Thou shall not kill" are considered racist and anti Muslim.
They made him take it down in the Netherlands.
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This account has been retired out of respect. Rest In Peace, Bushbadee. |
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ibn_rushd2
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2454
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| White meat, if you can find a link to your show on their website, could you post? Thanks, I don't get History channel. |
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TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
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Liberal observor
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 227
Location: Somewhare in the great satan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Some people will believe in just about anything, no matter how unrealistic. 12 million people believe Joesph Smith was a prophet of God even though there is far more evidence against thi than there is against the claim of Mohammed. So we can assume there will always be at least a few Muslims. The question is how can we convince those persons who insist on remaining Muslim to live in peace with kafirs. Here heterodox Islam is to be preferred over Orthodox Islam. Sufism can be a road out of islam as well as into it. |
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TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:56 am Post subject: |
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You have to convince people not to follow the commands of their god. How the hell do you do that? For the other religions that reformed, they were pretty much forced into understanding that it was in their best interest to co-exist. Jews got out of hand, got smacked, Christians got out of hand for a LONG time, got smacked down. Islam HAS to be next. Muslims have to see that the earth will not open and swallow the unbelievers. They have to realize that they cannot themselves murder with impunity.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
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Liberal observor
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 227
Location: Somewhare in the great satan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately people have faith in what their God tells them. This means they are at least somewhat unaccepting of the possibility their God is not telling them to do what they think He is telling them to do. For Muslims this problem is magnified by the nature of their faith. Mulims see themselves as the slaves of Allah. Slaves do not question the orders of their masters. Also since Allah created moral law anything He says to do is unquestionably good.
Christians and Jews see themselves as the friends of God. They can question God if they think He is wrong, though many are not willing to do so. Finally, the God of the Christians and Jews is good because there exists a moral law to which He must be as obedient as His creations. These facts make Christianity and Judaism easier to reform than Islam.
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Its the violence stupid. We could live in peace with non-violent Islam. But is non-violent Islam possible? |
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mehdi_t
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 738
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: On Sufism and the Death of Islam |
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Thanks to the sufism, Islam penetrates easily the west.   |
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TheOtherWhiteMeat
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1741
Location: Dar Al-Harb
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:27 am Post subject: Re: On Sufism and the Death of Islam |
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| mehdi_t wrote: |
Thanks to the sufism, Islam penetrates easily the west. |
Nice honest observation there! Here's a cookie. You earned it.
_________________
A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer
It wasn't you who killed them, it was Allah. ~ 8:17 |
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