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Quran 2:282 - Please Vote
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Why does Allah mandate this Requirement?

Women are Liars, so the other is there to make sure she is truthful

[ 2 ]

Women have a Naturally Bad Memory, so the second Woman is there to remind the First

17%

[ 7 ]

Women are Deficient in Intelligence thus Allah is saying they are too inferior to be equal to a man

51%

[ 20 ]

Women are Deficient in Intelligence, but this does not make them inferior to men

[ 3 ]

Other (please elaborate)

17%

[ 7 ]

Total Votes : 39

Author

Message

Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:

mahiwal wrote:

I vote for the option, "Other(please elaborate)"...

thanks,

Hello mahiwal: could you please elaborate on this?

Thanks

-Sani

PS: Brave Steed: Everyone off their high horses except you; ming's chinese satellite informs me you have a pony

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Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Quran 2:282 - Please Vote

Just a woman wrote:

Sani, I refrained from giving my just interpretation of scriptures because you keep saying that my interpretations weren't valid, as there were Arab scholars with unjust interpretations that disagreed with me

Welll you have previously informed me that we are NOT ALLOWED to "add words that aren't there"; so I expect you to do the same. Any interpretation used by you will not be accepted, because of the criteria you have applied to me.

Just a woman wrote:

So I tried a different approach and attempted to show you that the verses didn't literally say what those scholars claimed. So when you say that Islam teaches that women are intellectually inferior, I say that no verse in Quran or hadith says that, and that the view of women being intellectually inferior is a cultural one and not the religious view of Islam. As a Muslim female in Sudan I was never treated as less by
the males in my village nor were other females, in fact we were giving the benefit of the doubt more than not, more than the males for sure.

Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant here; we are working with the scriptures, and not the actions of humans around you or me.

Just a woman wrote:

The black natives of Sudan treated their women like Queens and not dogs. The native men in my country love women and respect them as mothers of the earth, some tribes even attribute a since of divinity to the status of woman. But it was a different different story with the ruling Arabs and those few blacks who adopted their violent interpretation of Islam. Those Arabs are a people who come from a arrogant male dominated society and are hostile towards their own women, not to mention black women.

Note: This is not to be applied to all Arabs.

Again, anecdotal evidence is irrelevant here.

Just a woman wrote:

You ask me for my Interpretation. Ok
I will give you the AL-Haqqa Islamic interpretation of the verse in Question as I was in the beginning.

The reason there are two witnesses for women is to guard them against the consequences of a mistakes.

Okay with you so far.

Just a woman wrote:

The verse says if one of them errs the other will remind her. The error could be do to her being intimidated in a male dominated society were she is called to be a witness, it could be do to her naturally forgetting, the reason she might err could be do to a number of different reasons and thats why the reason is not giving.

I don't agree that the "reason is not given". Your explanation is adding words that are not there. (as you have accused me of).
It clearly says "If she errs, the other can remind her." Your expalnation agrees that women may "naturally forget" which is what I have been saying all along!

And then you go and mess it up by adding interpretation to words, which is not there in the text! You cannot do this,a s you have discounted my whole interpretation, because I infer the natural conclusion from the text. You are adding a whole lot extra.

It cannot be accepted, by your own criteria.

Just a woman wrote:

But in whatever case, the second women would act as a support for the other in the event that she did err or shied away from the truth. The fact that the women has two witnesses is to her advantage and not her disadvantage.

Where does 2:282 say this?

Just a woman wrote:

The women is giving the advantage of being supported with help in legal proceedings and the male is not.

Show me where 2:282 says "for support"?

Just a woman wrote:

For instance, if a man naturally forgets and gives a statement that later proves to be false, he will not be giving the benefit of the doubt, and would be held accountable for perjury. But a woman is giving the benefit of having another person around, thereby adding strength to her testimony and guarding her against the human possibility of forgetting.

So women are not expected to be truthful? Where does 2:282 say this?
Again, you're adding to the text what is not there; you are ignoring the natural interpretation of the verse, and adding "interpretation" to it.

By your own criteria I must dismiss it.

Just a woman wrote:

This extra witness makes it less likely that she will err and be held accountable for that error or mistake. Men are not given that benefit and if they err, they will be held accountable.

Again, you're saying exactly what I said; its to do with a women's deficience in memory.

Please don't call me a liar and then say I'm right (while still saying I'm lying).

Just a woman wrote:

So I tell you that the interpretation that you are putting to this verse is incorrect and unjust to women. Your point of view is that of the Arab men of the dessert and is oppressive.

No, you pretty much agreed with everything I said. However, your explanation of the second woman being there to "help" and "support" the first woman is pure supposition, therefore must be rejected by your own criteria (set apon me).

Just a woman wrote:

I didn't comment on this because (through forgetfulness) is the words of the author and not Quran.

Agree. Apparently the translator understood the Quran better than you; he must have been a male.

Conclusion:You have agreed with me that women may "naturally forget". This is what I said. Everything else is pure conjecture and "personal interpretation" on your part.

No wonder you were dancing around telling me what the verse "really meant"; as you knew you had broken your own "adding words that aren't there" objection; the one that you had used to discount all that I had said!

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

-Sani
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Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:56 am Post subject:

miss ruby wrote:

Sanitarium wrote:

Karngga wrote:

Hi Sani, you said -
Thank you so much for your thoughts, Karngga; and welcome to FFI!

I've actually been here for some time but some of my very early posts don't seem to show up or my original joining date. Mostly I have just sat back and read things others have said, but lately I've started posting. I got to the stage where I can no longer accept the tissue of lies and misinformation being promulgated by so many muslims that I just had to start putting my 2 cents worth in.

FINALLY! hehehe So glad you're here. I know what you mean; I feel like smacking my head against a wall when I see the same lies being repeated by Muslims.

-Sani

NO!!!!!

Sani, our Warrior please do not resort to this barbaric solution. We need you!!!!!

Its alright Miss Ruby: I haven't gotten to that stage yet! And even if I do, *points to nickname* I may have rubber walls

you never know!

hehe
-Sani
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Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:30 am Post subject:

My apologies for my Fourth Post in a row everyone :(

Just a Woman: Your explanation does not fit with the evidence we have. You had added words to 2:282 (words that are not there). which you said I was not allowed to do. But that is not the only problem:

Have a look at these hadith again:

Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826 wrote:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."

You haven't addressed this hadith. Muhammd is telling you that a Woman's Testimony is equal to half of a man. Your explanation that the second woman is there so the first does not get intimidated, having to testify alone in a male dominated society does not fit with Muhammad's own words.

Muhammad clearly shows that a Woman is not EQUAL to a man, and this is why the second woman is required; to bring the account of events to the equal of one Male witness (two females).

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301 wrote:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Again the same statement by Muhammad, affirming that the testimony of ONE woman is equal to HALF one Male. Your explanation of intimidation does not fit Muhammad's own words.

You cannot reject these hadith as having "nothing do with the issue" as Muhammad is clearly referring to 2:282 in order to back up his statement of "deficiency in intelligence."

The hadith in Question are Bukhari (sahih) and if you wish to say they are "not authentic" then you have to give a good reason why.

So tell me, Just a Woman how have we all "misread" this hadith? Muhammad is clear in his explanation.

Thanks

-Sani
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Ajax

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 2927
Location: Elysian Fields

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Quran 2:282 - Please Vote

Just a woman wrote:

The native men in my country love women and respect them as mothers of the earth, some tribes even attribute a since of divinity to the status of woman.

Really? That smells like paganism to me. There are no mothers of earth in Islam and you can't attribute any sort of divinity to anything other than Allah and angels.

How does this divinity attribute conflict with Quran giving permision to beat up women? I suppose you'd argue that beat is mistranslated, am I right?

Just a woman wrote:

But it was a different different story with the ruling Arabs and those few blacks who adopted their violent interpretation of Islam. Those Arabs are a people who come from a arrogant male dominated society and are hostile towards their own women, not to mention black women.

Right you are. Quran was based on Mohammad's words and the origin of Islam is in Arab lands. So it makes sense that Quran is male oriented because it comes from "an arrogant male dominated society" which was and still is "hostile towards their own women". So, based on that, it's clear that there are two possibilities:

If your interpretation is correct, Quran does not forbid intimidation against women. Instead of preventing a man from bullying women, it simply tried to balance it using numbers. If you have only two witnesses, a man and a woman, what do you do? Drop the case because there are no sufficient witnesses? Can you weight the man's testimony at half its value?
If your interpretation is wrong, Quran views women as deficient as Sanitarium said.

Either way, Quran can't come out smelling like roses here.
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mahiwal

Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 1087
Location: Miami, FL

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:33 am Post subject:

miss ruby wrote:

mahiwal wrote:

miss ruby wrote:

Sanitarium wrote:

Karngga wrote:

FINALLY! hehehe So glad you're here. I know what you mean; I feel like smacking my head against a wall when I see the same lies being repeated by Muslims.

-Sani

NO!!!!!

Sani, our Warrior please do not resort to this barbaric solution. We need you!!!!!

Is She some kind of a barbaric warrior princess?

sorry for the interruption, do continue.

Thats Ok, next time be more careful!!!

Brave Steed

Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 3285
Location: Here, like you.

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:55 am Post subject:

Thanks, Sani, for finding the original (Bukhari) sources for the hadith I had quoted from the secondary source. Great job! Now I feel like "dancing around". C'mon and do the pony, like Bonie Maronie. Put your hands on your hips. Let your backbone slip. Na nana na na na nana nana na nanana nanananahhhh! Steed _________________ Find the daughter killer Yassir Said </islam>

Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:41 am Post subject:

Brave Steed wrote:

Thanks, Sani, for finding the original (Bukhari) sources for the hadith I had quoted from the secondary source. Great job!

Now I feel like "dancing around". C'mon and do the pony, like Bonie Maronie. Put your hands on your hips. Let your backbone slip. Na nana na na na nana nana na nanana nanananahhhh!

Steed

No worries; lets see what Just a Woman says

You feel like dancing? Well leave me outta it hehe; dancing and I don't get along

-Sanitarium
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Just a woman

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 731

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject:

Sanitarium wrote:

Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826 wrote:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301 wrote:

You are trying so hard that you are not even paying attention.
The literal translation of the verse in question is just as it is printed, He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. nothing more nothing less.

The evidence of two women is equal to the witness of one man.
Not that two women are equal to one man or that women are inferior.
I told you that you can't add words to the literal translation. Meaning you can't say that these verse says women are intellectually inferior as the literal translation doesn't say that. Thats what I said you couldn't add words to. So pay attention!

The verse also goes on to say, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence". "This" is in reference to "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" Because two womens evidence is equal to the witness of one man she has a deficiency in her intellect. Nothing more, nothing less. The literal translation doesn't say that the womens intellectual deficiency is do to her being inferior to men, or having a bad memory, or that they can't be trusted. The reason Muhammad said that women have a intellectual deficiency is because "the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man." Nothing more, nothing less.

The literal translation doesn't tell you why women have to have two witnesses but it can be referred to in Quran. And Quran says that the reason women have to have two witnesses is in case the other "errs". Nothing more, nothing less. Quran doesn't say she needs two witnesses because she is inferior, or has a bad memory, or that she can't be trusted. Quran says that the second witness is needed because, "If she errs, the other can remind her."

So the literal translation of these verses say nothing about women being less than men or that the reason she needs to present two witnesses is because she is inferior. That was my argument.

a interpretation of these verses is different. You have provided interpretations of theses verses and more than one might I add. Our interpretations are not literal translations. In our interpretation of these verses we are giving insight and explanations as to "why" and "how" something is applied, that is not translated in the literal translation of the text. So of course they are not word for word.
Interpretations and Literal translations are not the same.
Now do you get it?

You asked me for my interpretation and then say its not allowed but you provide at least 4 different interpretations. It obvious you don't know the interpretation of the verses because you have giving so many. I only gave one. There could be someone who might interpret the verses differently than you and I have, but the point is that although our interpretations may differ, the literal translation of the texts doesn't say that women are inferior to men. It says that, "two womens evidences is equal to the witness of one man" and that, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence". and the reason why Quran says that women have two witnesses is because "If she errs, the other can remind her." nothing more, nothing less.

Your interpretations of theses verse are unjust to women and mine are just to women. You have the point of view of those Desert Arabs that Quran mentions.
They interpret Quran as being unjust to women so that they can take women slaves, and you interpret Quran as being unjust to women so you can discredit the religion.

we may differ with our interpretations,
But the literal translations are clear.

I for one would rather live with the Muslims who had the just interpretations rather than the unjust interpretations of Islamic doctrine.
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shoeshiner

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:20 am Post subject:

Just a woman wrote:

I think that you are the one who is trying too hard. According to your own translation, it says women are deficient in intelligence...hello?

doubtless

Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:33 am Post subject:

Believe it or not, according to the moron muslimah being deficient in intelligence does not imply being inferior to men at all. What can you possibly expect from one who is deficient in intelligence? Do you see that one vote for : Women are Deficient in Intelligence, but this does not make them inferior to men. That's her. _________________ Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt." Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!"

shoeshiner

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:45 am Post subject:

Oh boy. I guess black is white. Sunset is sunrise. Man is woman. And Just A Woman is smart. Thanks for updating me, I don't really visit this subdirectory all that much.

Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:26 am Post subject:

Just a woman wrote:

You are trying so hard that you are not even paying attention.

I don't have to try hard at all; the answers are obvious. you are the one that is floundering here, trying to explain this away so you don't have to face the truth.

Just a woman wrote:

The literal translation of the verse in question is just as it is printed, He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. nothing more nothing less.

How is that a literal translation?

And no, Quran 2:282 and The hadiths in question are connected, as Muhammad refers directly to the mandate in 2:282:. You have to put them together, or disprove the hadith in order to reject it.

You can't take one and explain it one way, and then take the other (by itself) and explain it another way.

This is your problem; you are trying to seperate them in order to fit your theory. You can't do it.

Just a woman wrote:

The evidence of two women is equal to the witness of one man.
Not that two women are equal to one man or that women are inferior.

2:282 and the hadiths are dealing with the same issue, as Muhammad refers directly to the mandate in 2:282; therefore we put them together and judge accordingly.

Just a woman wrote:

I told you that you can't add words to the literal translation.

No, you said I "can't add any words that aren't there". You did not mention "literal" or anything like it.

Just a woman wrote:

Meaning you can't say that these verse says women are intellectually inferior as the literal translation doesn't say that.

The hadiths and 2:282 go together. Therefore it is saying women are deficient and thus inferior.

Just a woman wrote:

Thats what I said you couldn't add words to. So pay attention!

Oh dear; is this a last ditch effort? All of my responses have been coherant and uniform (the same and using the same reasoning). Its you who are jumping all over the place.

Just a woman wrote:

The verse also goes on to say, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence". "This" is in reference to "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" Because two womens evidence is equal to the witness of one man she has a deficiency in her intellect.

No. 2:282 AND the hadiths are dealing with the same thing because Muhammad refers DIRECTLY to the mandate in 2:282. You cannot dismiss the hadiths, unless you prove their unauthenticity.

Just a woman wrote:

Nothing more, nothing less.

You can't seperate the hadiths from 2:282.

Just a woman wrote:

The literal translation doesn't say that the womens intellectual deficiency is do to her being inferior to men, or having a bad memory, or that they can't be trusted.

You keep harping on about the "literal translation" but you haven't specified it. Do you mean the "plain words on the page"?

Actually, 2:282 does say that women have bad memories, as I have shown you previously. You ONLY need reminding if you forget something (memory problem), and since women need a second woman there every single time, then women have a deficiency in Intelligence, by way of their prone-to-failure memory

Just a woman wrote:

The reason Muhammad said that women have a intellectual deficiency is because "the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man." Nothing more, nothing less.

You're ignoring the next part of the verse (deliberately I think). SO IF SHE ERRS, THE SECOND CAN REMIND HER.

DO I really have to put it in huge font, or will you get it this time?

Just a woman wrote:

The literal translation doesn't tell you why women have to have two witnesses but it can be referred to in Quran.

YOU CANNOT SEPERATE THE HADITHS FROM 2:282, BECAUSE MUHAMMAD REFERS DIRECTLY TO THE MANDATE CONTAINED WITHIN THAT VERSE.

EVERYTHING YOU ARE TRYING TO DO IS DESPERATION.

Get it now?

Just a woman wrote:

And Quran says that the reason women have to have two witnesses is in case the other "errs".

Why did you choose that one translation? Would you like me to provide you with others? Besides, erring is error; and if the woman makes an error, then she is either lying, or her memory is faulty!

You've just confirmed my point. Thanks

Just a woman wrote:

Nothing more, nothing less.

You keep saying that, but you are proving nothing but your own desperation.

Just a woman wrote:

Quran doesn't say she needs two witnesses because she is inferior, or has a bad memory, or that she can't be trusted.

It can only be interpreted in these ways. Your explanation is pure, unsupported conjecture.

Muhammad says Women are deficient in intellgience BECAUSE her testimony is equivalent to that of 1/2 a man."

So your explanations for 2:282 are wrong. You contradict the Quran and Muhammad's own words.

Just a woman wrote:

Quran says that the second witness is needed because, "If she errs, the other can remind her."

Yes I know; I've been telling you this. REMIND HER. That means, REMIND HER because she FORGOT or is lying.

Just a woman wrote:

So the literal translation of these verses say nothing about women being less than men or that the reason she needs to present two witnesses is because she is inferior. That was my argument.

I don't give a flying Buraq what your "argument" is. It contradicts the Quran and the hadith in question so I discard it.

Just a woman wrote:

a interpretation of these verses is different. You have provided interpretations of theses verses and more than one might I add.

Are you talking about the poll? I wanted to give everyone every possible explanation as to its meaning (for them to choose from).

My explanation has remained the same.

Just a woman wrote:

Our interpretations are not literal translations. In our interpretation of these verses we are giving insight and explanations as to "why" and "how" something is applied, that is not translated in the literal translation of the text. So of course they are not word for word.
Interpretations and Literal translations are not the same.
Now do you get it?

I don't know what you're on about here. *watches you flounder*

Just a woman wrote:

You asked me for my interpretation and then say its not allowed but you provide at least 4 different interpretations.

I did it to give everyone a CHOICE as to ALL the possible interpretations. After all, it would be incorrect to have just my interpretation and yours; give people a choice.

No, I asked you WHAT IT MEANT; not for your interpretation.

Just a woman wrote:

It obvious you don't know the interpretation of the verses because you have giving so many.

Obviously you don't know what a Fair Poll looks like or how it operates.

It is YOU who doesn't know what they are talking about, and are trying desperately to lie to us (and yourself)

Just a woman wrote:

I only gave one. There could be someone who might interpret the verses differently than you and I have, but the point is that although our interpretations may differ, the literal translation of the texts doesn't say that women are inferior to men.

Stop saying "literal translation"; you don't know what it means as you keep using it incorrectly.

Just a woman wrote:

It says that, "two womens evidences is equal to the witness of one man" and that, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence". and the reason why Quran says that women have two witnesses is because "If she errs, the other can remind her." nothing more, nothing less.

Repetition is desperation. *watches you flounder some more*

Just a woman wrote:

Your interpretations of theses verse are unjust to women and mine are just to women. You have the point of view of those Desert Arabs that Quran mentions.

Muhammad was a Desert Arab. My interpretation fits. Yours doesn't.

Just a woman wrote:

They interpret Quran as being unjust to women so that they can take women slaves, and you interpret Quran as being unjust to women so you can discredit the religion.

The Quran IS unjust to women; just because you say it isn't true, doesn't change that fact. The sooner you wake up the better.

Just a woman wrote:

we may differ with our interpretations,
But the literal translations are clear.

Again, learn what "literal translation" means before trying to use it.

Just a woman wrote:

I for one would rather live with the Muslims who had the just interpretations rather than the unjust interpretations of Islamic doctrine.

And the trut FINALLY COMES OUT!!! You would rather live with YOUR interpretation than face the TRUTH!

It took such a long time; and a lot of effort on my part, but you FINALLY ADMIT IT!!!!!

*tips hat*

Thanks

-Sanitarium
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Sanitarium

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:28 am Post subject:

shoeshiner wrote:

Oh boy. I guess black is white. Sunset is sunrise. Man is woman. And Just A Woman is smart.

Thanks for updating me, I don't really visit this subdirectory all that much.

At least she FINALLY admits she would rather live with her interpretation than the correct one

-Sani
_________________
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Karngga

Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 244

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:29 am Post subject:

OK, Lets just accept that MUSLIM women are deficient in intelligence and leave it at that shall we? I, meanwhile, will never concede that WESTERN women are deficient in intelligence. (I wonder if this is due to Islam? No! Surely not!)

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