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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| G&C wrote: |
| I don't think so |
Is this a refutation?
Then I counter refute with ........ Well I do think so.
| G&C wrote: |
| Let him say his piece without colouring it. |
Yes, he has done a lot of colouring without using coloured pencils.
_________________
The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
>>paradoxtoparadise]<<
>>> http://www.geocities.com/humandecency/first <<<
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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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Gaul&Carthage
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 4914
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Is this a refutation?
Then I counter refute with ........ Well I do think so. |
It was a sharing...it would appear that you are in the "talking to muslims" mode.
Hey buddy...there is another world out here. Loosen up f*ucker!
By the way HD, people can imagine they dismiss as they like....I only dismiss myself or them.
That is the way it is.
See?
G&C |
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doubtless
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I have not followed all the posts and I have no idea why a discussion based on insults and counter insults and heckling has developed here, but I assume everyone must have good reasons.
Ahmed Bhagat,
I am very interested in hearing your interpretation of the combination of 65:4 and 33:49. You say that you are very good at arabic grammar. I see that Mahiwal has joined your forum as a member there Please ask him the details.
In short, Many many tafsirs of the quran have interpreted the Quran 65:4 to inlcude the iddah for girls who have "as yet" to have periods as three months meaning as I understand it, that pre-pubertal girls iddah is 3 months. alAhzab 39 states that there is no waiting period for women who have not been touched. Maulana Mawdudi (a famous Deobandi sunni Scholar) in his writings interprets that to mean that girls who are too immature can be given in marriage and husbands can "consummate" their marriages with them. Shia Imams including Khomenii, Sistani, and others have interpreted those and the history of Ali, Umar, etc. marrying 4 to 10 year old girls to arrive at the same conclusion as Mawdudi and they extend that to the Shia mutta marriages.
You can ask Mahiwal and he can give you all the URL's to the various tafsirs, and interpretations of the muslims or if you want I can collect them and get for you.
I find these interpretations troubling and unacceptable.
Mahiwal takes the position that the whole lot of tafsiris were wrong and messed up on the Quranic arabic. It comes down to the arabic word "Lam Yahidna". I have asked many many arabic speakers and arbic scholars, muslims and non-muslims and they have all stated that the usage that has been acceptable by the arabs has been for that it referes "too immature to have had courses" as translated by Halili and Khan and many others. Trying to deny that and change the meaning after a 1000 years seem a bit strange.
Some of the attempts by the new interpretations has been to deny that there is a problems by asserting that the "Yahidna" merely refers to a medical condition and not to immature girls. That does require accepting that practically all the famous imams and scholars of the past were wrong which does have some consequences. So I am very interested in listening to your interpretation and what wisdom do you see in the combination of 65:4 and 33:49.
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."
Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!" |
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doubtless
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Ahmed Bhagat,
Here is some news giving a view into the state of some of the Pakistani Muslims
in USA:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\01\07\story_7-1-2007_pg3_3
| Quote: |
Anyone who wants to know how the Pakistani-American community lives, should know that it is doing well but the ghost masters and spell casters are doing even better
I have always been an avid reader of advice columns in Urdu newspapers and they have never ceased to amuse and astonish me. The large Pakistani community in America — no one really knows what its size is but it is greater than the US Census Bureau believes — gets a good deal of its news from the Urdu language weekly papers that can be picked up free of charge from any Pakistani grocery store or eating place. These broadsheets are no longer shoe-string operations. They are money-makers, thanks to the extensive advertising they carry, including that from ghost masters, star-gazers, palm readers, black magic practitioners and spiritual fixers.
Every paper also carries various advice columns. One such column carries questions and answers from Mufti Muneer A. Akhoon, formerly of the Binori Mosque in Karachi, and now of upstate New York. Pakistanis living here obviously consider him their guide and master.
Chaudhry Abdul Mannan from New York wants to know as to how a woman can engage in trade or get an education, when even her voice is subject to strict purdah. The Mufti confirms that even a woman’s voice has to meet the same criteria as her body, namely not to be heard by unauthorised men. However, in times of need, as long as she keeps her face covered, it is permissible for her to talk. But her tone must remain harsh and unfriendly so that men are not encouraged to feel attracted towards her. Some men, the Mufit overlooks, may be attracted by just such women. What then? Perdition?
Mrs Kalsoom Anwar from Houston, Texas, writes, “I am 52 years of age and there is a particular dream that comes to me repeatedly. I dream that I am having sex with my father who died 22 years ago. I also find myself bedding my brother. Both of them were deeply religious and men of faith.” Mufti Muneer Akhoon’s answer, “Your dream means that you stand to benefit from both these men, either in terms of your credit in the book of God or through material means. There is absolutely no need for you to worry on this count. However, your faith will have to remain steadfast.” Was that Dr Freud turning in his grave, bitter?
Samina Fazal from Brooklyn, New York, says she has lived in America for the last six years but is frightened out of her skin by a strange shadow that stalks her all over the house. She wants to know what she can do. Mufti Akhoon replies, “Your house appears to be under the occupation of jinns and evil spirits.” He proceeds to suggest various Quranic passages that she should read several times a day. She should also sprinkle water all over her house but she must blow on it after reading the recommended texts. All residents of the house should also drink some of the sanctified water. This exercise has to be repeated for 41 days but there should be no breaks. Obviously, if she forgets to blow on the water or to drink it, the evil spirits will get her goat.
Saira Khan from Virginia is much troubled because she has just been divorced, has two children and is facing financial hardship. She wants to know what she should do. The Mufti recommends that after morning prayers, she should recite Sura Fateha 70 times on the first day, cutting the recitations by 10 every day. After reciting the last segment, she should start all over again. This holy routine she should continue for seven weeks. “Thereafter, just watch how assistance comes your way from treasures of the unknown,” Mufti Akhoon predicts.
Nasreen Shah from New York wants to know if after she has performed her ablutions, will she have to perform them gain if in between she has napped briefly. The lady is assured that she need not wash herself again, as here loss of consciousness was involuntary. But what if it wasn’t? The Mufti is silent like the sphinx on that one.
Mrs Khan from Chicago asks if clothes washed in a washing machine remain pure or impure. Or should they be washed by hand three times to make them pure? She is told that if an article of clothing is “impure” (whatever that means), it should be washed by hand and only then put in the washing machine with the pure clothes. Adil Farooq from Virginia is troubled because he works for a life insurance company and he is not sure if his income is halal or haram. The Mufti answers that since life insurance is “generally gambling and usury”, it is haram, but if one lives in a land where life without insurance is not safe or if there is a legal obligation to get insured, then it is permissible. But the insurance bought must be just sufficient, not excessive. Also any income derived from insurance should be spent on charity.
Arsalan from Chicago asks if it is permitted to wear a necktie. He says he has been looking for a job and obviously has failed to get one because he has been appearing for his interviews without a necktie. His friends have advised him to wear one next time he appears for an interview. What should he do, he wants to know? Mufti Akhoon tells him that if he believes the necktie can earn him his livelihood, he should wear one. But if he believes that God alone is man’s sustainer, then he should continue to hope for “rizq-e-halal” but “without committing the sin of wearing a neckie” The Mufti asks: why are so many necktie-wearing people without work? And why are so many not wearing neckties gainfully employed? He also advises the young man from Chicago to recite a certain Quranic verse 71 times every day. I think we can assume that Arsalan from Chicago is still unemployed.
Twenty-four year old Saima from California can’t find a husband. She wants to know how that can be rectified. She is told to recite a certain Quranic verse eight times after late evening prayers and another verse 11 times. This has to be continued for 80 days and “God willing, a virtuous and proper match will materialise.” Had Saima asked me, I would have suggested she send an email to Mustansar Hussain Tarar of Shaadi Online. MFT is the man who always used to run into doe-eyed, dreamy looking women with cascading hair in mountain hideouts when he used to travel. He would surely have found Saima a Green Card seeker by now.
To close, anyone who wants to know how the Pakistani-American community lives, should know that it is doing well but the ghost masters and spell casters are doing even better. |
I assure you that the sway of the spell casters and the ghost masters in UK is even greated if possible and the fraction of muslims under their influence is far more than in US. The US has it share of the doctors and engineers and the PHd's and a whole lot them are secular and visiting the mosque less and less type. Those who do end up going to the mosque run into the ghost masters instead of an educated imam. UK has a higer percentage of born in UK but more lost than anything. A lot are on the verge of simply throwing their hands up and moving on with their this-worldly life. How are things in Australia?
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."
Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!" |
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Alla
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 3121
Location: Locked up in the black box... worshiped by braindead islamozombies.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
| MsWesterner wrote: |
Ahmed....about breastfeeding for two years and your claim...where is your proof. I have to say your claim doesn't ring true when I see your behaviour.....calling women whores all the time, and such juvenile nonsense.
My son has been classified as being in the top 3% of the country, and we adopted him and he was never breast fed. So how com????
Imagine if I was a pedophile follower......he would not have the love, home life, opportunities and quality of life that he does, as I would have to "obey the immorality" of a person whom you respect!!!!
Shame on adults who believe such nonsense from a man who displayed such ignorance and cruelty. |
Dismissed |
| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
Miss west
all your other blah blah is dismissed, now please dismiss yourself on the count of 3
1
2
3
go |
| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
| Dismissed. |
Translation: I am too weak and lazy to try and rebuff your claims. Besides your probably right anyways.
_________________
You should become a muslim because...- Its the fastest growing religion
- I like being kissed
- Hitler converted to islam
- The T-Rex in Jurasic Park worships Alla
- You can drink camel urin
</islam></communism> |
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Danish
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| doubtless wrote: |
Ahmed Bhagat,
I am very interested in hearing your interpretation of the combination of 65:4 and 33:49. You say that you are very good at arabic grammar. I see that Mahiwal has joined your forum as a member there Please ask him the details. |
Hello Doubtless,
Allow me to answer to your above concern. Personally I don't see any problem between the verses 65:4 and 33:49 as far as waiting period is concerned. Both these verses are talking about marriage but with a distinction of copulation. These examples were set in the context of historic time as deemed fit. Ofcourse, with the advancement of technology that we have today, such as abortion and brith control, the waiting period becomes rather meaningless, although still recognized as a commandment to contingencies in some remote and/or "backward" orthodoxies.
_________________
Nature dictates conditions of reality to living a circumstantial way of life. Life is Reality, Reality is Nature and Nature is Supreme. Love and Live by Reality in Nature. ~ Danish. |
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rand
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 888
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Danish wrote: |
Hello Doubtless,
Allow me to answer to your above concern. Personally I don't see any problem between the verses 65:4 and 33:49 as far as waiting period is concerned. Both these verses are talking about marriage but with a distinction of copulation. These examples were set in the context of historic time as deemed fit. Ofcourse, with the advancement of technology that we have today, such as abortion and brith control, the waiting period becomes rather meaningless, although still recognized as a commandment to contingencies in some remote and/or "backward" orthodoxies. |
Danish,
| Quote: |
| [33.49] O you who believe! when you marry the believing women, then divorce them before you touch them, you have in their case no term which you should reckon; so make some provision for them and send them forth a goodly sending forth. |
33:49 mentions that if a man divorces a woman before consummating the marriage there is no need for a waiting period.
| Quote: |
| [65.4] And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair. |
According to 65:4, the waiting period is 3 months. Why does 65:4 mention 3 months and 33:49 no months? Because 65:4 is discussing the case of when the marriage was consummated. So 65:4 allows for the case of a girl who hasn't started menstruating getting married and have sex with her husband.
Many muslim apologists will claim that Muhammad waited until she menstruated to marry her. 65:4 shows that that was not neccesary according to the quran.
---
But I agree the waiting period is no longer needed due to modern technology, but the quran wasn't aware of future discoveries.
rand |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| humandecency wrote: |
| I was about to dismiss you G&C, but Ahmed Bagguette beat me to it. |
listen indecenecy
I only dismissed him because I'm busy and I don't know what the hell he is talking about
on the other hand he seems like a nice guy, unlike you you filthy fuker |
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Alla
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 3121
Location: Locked up in the black box... worshiped by braindead islamozombies.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
listen indecenecy
I only dismissed him because I'm busy and I don't know what the hell he is talking about
on the other hand he seems like a nice guy, unlike you you filthy fuker |
But you seem like a reeeeaaalll nice guy.
_________________
You should become a muslim because...- Its the fastest growing religion
- I like being kissed
- Hitler converted to islam
- The T-Rex in Jurasic Park worships Alla
- You can drink camel urin
</islam></communism> |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17115
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A_B: unlike you you filthy fuker |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Alla wrote: |
| AhmedBahgat wrote: |
listen indecenecy
I only dismissed him because I'm busy and I don't know what the hell he is talking about
on the other hand he seems like a nice guy, unlike you you filthy fuker |
But you seem like a reeeeaaalll nice guy. |
No lady, I'm a real asshole
you have been warned  |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| yeezevee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A_B: unlike you you filthy fuker |
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and the point is you motherfuker? |
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Alla
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 3121
Location: Locked up in the black box... worshiped by braindead islamozombies.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| yeezevee wrote: |
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I like that.
| Ahmed-too much time on his hands-Bahgat wrote: |
| and the point is you motherfuker? |
I think its mad.
_________________
You should become a muslim because...- Its the fastest growing religion
- I like being kissed
- Hitler converted to islam
- The T-Rex in Jurasic Park worships Alla
- You can drink camel urin
</islam></communism> |
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Danish
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Rand,
We know at the least, that both verses talk about marriage, right? Now the "key conditon" and the only major distinct difference in both those verses in relations to a waiting period is "touching" (copulation, intercourse, sex). That's all there is to it.
| Quote: |
| But I agree the waiting period is no longer needed due to modern technology, but the quran wasn't aware of future discoveries. |
Right! 
_________________
Nature dictates conditions of reality to living a circumstantial way of life. Life is Reality, Reality is Nature and Nature is Supreme. Love and Live by Reality in Nature. ~ Danish. |
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