Muslim And Sikhs

[freedom84]

[kinetic]

[quote="redray"]

[kinetic]

[redray]

There is no verse in the SGGS that says women are equal to men, and should be treated as such.

[b]If these words do not say this to you then there is nothing else I can say to persuade you

My dear sisters and spiritual companions, hug me close in your embrace. [b]Let's join together, and tell stories of our All-powerful Lord.
Guru Nanak Page 17, line 16

Come, dear sisters let us join together.
Guru Ram Daas Page 96, line 6

This is in line with the sikh teachings of equality;

Nanak, none is high and none is low.
(Guru I, JAPJI)

Only fools and idiots,
Try to supress others.[/b][/b]


"They cannot be called satis, who burn themselves with their dead husbands. They can only be called satis, if they bear the shock of separation. They may also be known as satis, who live with character and contentment and always show veneration to their husbands by remembering them." (Guru Amar Das, Var Suhi, pg. 787)

Where does it condemn sati? Does it say women should not burn themselves? This verse is only giving a new definition of sati, not condemning it.

The condemnation of sati could not ber clearer
The widows burn themselves on the pyres of their lords, but if they love their spouses well, they'd suffer the pangs of separation even otherwise. Nanak: She who loves not he spouse, why burns she herself in fire? For, be he alive or dead, she owns him not. (Suhi, M. 3)

In the Kali-age, they (the man and the woman) meet as was Ordained; And as was the Will, they enjoy themselves. But she attains not to her loved Lord by burning (on his pyre)

SGGS is not advocating any romance between husband and wife. In fact it is advocating against it. The second part of the verse indicates that the true husband is the lord who resides in you, not the physical person you are sitting with. It becomes clear when you read the verses preceding and succeeding it-

Are we talking about equality now or have the goalposts now moved to romance?

They are not said to be husband and wife who merely have physical contact only. Rather they alone are called husband and wife who have one soul in two bodies".
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p.788, Var Suhi.

"Love your own wife more and more. Touch not another woman’s bed either by mistake or even in dream. Know that the love of another’s wife is a sharp dagger".
Guru Gobind Singh
Dasam Granth, Part-11, p-842

There is a general teaching of getting together.

Get together, my brethren, And remove all misunderstandings through regard for each other.
GURU V, BASANT RAG

2. The advantages of getting together, I cannot enumerate.
GURU I, GUJRI RAG

[kinetic]

Far from giving equal status to women, sikhism can actually wreck the family life of its followers.

Granth Sahib

Page 412
The men of the world are conquered by woman; they love the ladies.
Attached to children and wife, they forget the Naam.
They waste this human life in vain, and lose the game in the gamble.


Page 179
He is so involved with his wife and sons - he believes that they belong to him.
That wealth shall pass away, and those relatives shall be reduced to ashes.
Without meditating and vibrating on the Lord, they are crying out in pain.
Their bodies are cursed, and their wealth is cursed - they are imbued with Maya.

[redray]

[freedom84]

[freedom84]

In the religion of Christianity, God created man, and then woman out of man's rib. Eve, the first woman persuades Adam to eat the forbidden apple, thus committing the world's first sin, a landmark recognized as the fall of mankind.

The Muslim religion also demeans women. The Koran contains explicit details concerning the inferior treatment of women. This includes the right of a man to divorce his wife, never vice versa, and the wearing of a veil to cover a woman's face, called burkah, in public. The Koran reminds men, "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) ... And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them."

At the time of Guru Nanak, Indian women were severely degraded and oppressed by their society. Given no education or freedom to make decisions, their presence in religious, political, social, cultural, and economic affairs was virtually non-existent. Woman was referred to as "man's shoe, the root of all evil, a snare, a temptress." Her function was only to perpetuate the race, do household work, and serve the male members of society. Female infanticide was common, and the practice of sati, the immolation of the wife on her husband's funeral pyre, was encouraged, sometimes even forced.

Guru Nanak condemned this man-made notion of the inferiority of women, and protested against their long subjugation.

The bani parallels all human beings (men and women) to the woman / wife, and God to the man/husband. This means that every person is a sohagan - a woman who is the beloved of the Lord - whether they have the body of a man or woman. Because the human body is transitory, the difference between man and woman is only transitory, and as such superficial. Thus, according to Sikh ideology, all men and women possess equal status. All human beings, regardless of gender, caste, race, or birth, are judged only by their
deeds.

With this assertion, the Sikh Gurus invited women to join the sangat (congregation), work with men in the langar (common kitchen), and participate in all other religious, social, and cultural activities of the gurudwaras (Sikh places of worship). The Gurus redefined celibacy as marriage to one wife and taught that male and female alike need to practice conjugal fidelity. They advocated marriage of two equal partners. Guru Amar Das, the third guru, wrote :

"Only they are truly wedded who have one spirit in two bodies."

[redray]

[kinetic]

[freedom84]

[kinetic]

[yeezevee]

kinetic takes on Sikh Scriptures from SGGS and explains his way of understanding of SGGS

[redray]

[quote="kinetic"]

Not impressive at all kinetic. You sound as if you are becoming desperate! It would help if you actually read the verses rather that just selecting a line or two which you think helps your agenda. As you will see below, the sections you selected had the opposite effect;

Page 304
Fourth Mehl:
Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.


’THOSE’ men, not men generally, the impure who live for the lust of women.
kaam vi-aapay kusuDh nar say joraa puchh chalaa.
Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.


Page - 394
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
A frown creases her forehead, and her look is evil.
Her speech is bitter, and her tongue is rude.
She is always hungry, and she believes her Husband to be far away.
Such is Maya, the woman, which the One Lord has created.

So this evil force called maya has to be a woman, right?

Wrong, the scriptures talk of ‘Maya’ in the feminine. You know what maya is here don’t you? Read the whole mehl if you really want to understand it, or perhaps you don’t want to understand it and just take sentences in isolation to make unsubstantiated pot shots.

In the following shabad Guru Arjun Dev Ji describes Maya – illusion. Maya has the whole world in her embrace and even the mighty gods and goddesses cannot escape her.

A frown creases her forehead, and her look is evil.
Her speech is bitter, and her tongue is rude.
She is always hungry, and she believes her Husband to be far away. ||1||
Such is Maya, the woman, which the One Lord has created.
She is devouring the whole world, but the Guru has saved me, O my Siblings of Destiny.
Administering her poisons, she has overcome the whole world.
She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
Only those Gurmukhs who are attuned to the Naam are blessed. ||2||
Performing fasts, religious observances and atonements, the mortals have grown weary.
They wander over the entire planet, on pilgrimages to the banks of sacred rivers.
But they alone are saved, who seek the Sanctuary of the True Guru. ||3||
Attached to Maya, the whole world is in bondage.
The foolish self-willed manmukhs are consumed by their egotism.
Taking me by the arm, Guru Nanak has saved me.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa p394


Page - 471
First Mehl:
There is no sacred thread for the sexual organ, and no thread for woman.
So woman is similar to a sexual organ? A walking vagina perhaps?

That is rather disgusting isn’t it? You have, perhaps inadvertently, stumbled across the criticisms of the actions of a Brahim that is being described.
He goes to hell naked, and he looks hideous then.
He regrets the sins he committed.
The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;
The Brahmin himself goes to the world hereafter without a sacred thread.
The thread is spun from cotton, and the Brahmin comes and twists it.
The goat is killed, cooked and eaten, and everyone then says, "Put on the sacred thread There is no sacred thread for the sexual organ, and no thread for woman.
There is no sacred thread for the feet, and no thread for the hands;
no thread for the tongue, and no thread for the eyes.
The Brahmin himself goes to the world hereafter without a sacred thread.

Not too much there about women really is there?




Page - 526
Goojaree:
At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute.

Do remember this on your deathbed. Don;t you dare worry about your wife

The importance of remember god foresmost is all that is being underlined here.

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,
shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents.

O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe.

At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute.

At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart
Page - 874
Gond:
One who worships the Great Goddess Maya will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man
And why not, exactly?

Maya again? Not a women. But wealth, greed, power, lust etc. Did you mean to defend these traits?



Page - 951
Shalok, First Mehl:
The woman loves the man only for his wealth;

Very very respectful, indeed.

Quoted out of context as above, referring to a particular scenario. A sentence plucked out of it in isolation is not a particularly intelligent way to attempt to mount an argument
_________________
Until Lions tell their own history, history will always glorify the hunters‘.

[freedom84]

Dear Kinetic

I assume somebody had specifically referred you to the quotes which you mentioned, or have you read the SGGS? Or at least have you read the whole of the verse you're quoting from?

It's only fair if we look at the whole quote, and not choose the bits we like hey?

|| 1 || FOURTH MEHL: The self-willed manmukh is occupied with greed all day long, although he may claim otherwise. At night, he is overcome by fatigue, and all his nine holes are weakened. Over the head of the manmukh is the order of the woman; to her, he ever holds out his promises of goodness. Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish. Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly. One who walks as the True Guru tells him to, is the true man, the best of the best. He Himself created all women and men; the Lord Himself plays every play. You created the entire creation; O Nanak, it is the best of the best. || 2 || PAUREE: You are carefree, unfathomable and immeasurable; how can You be measured? Those who have met the True Guru and who meditate on You are very fortunate. The Word of the True Guru's Bani is the embodiment of Truth; through Gurbani, one becomes perfect. Jealously emulating the True Guru, some others may speak of good and bad, but the false are destroyed by their falsehood. Deep within them is one thing, and in their mouths is another; they suck in the poison of Maya, and then they painfully waste away.

Do you know what this means sister?

Your 2nd quote Page 394:

AASAA, FIFTH MEHL: The world is saved by the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. The Name of the Lord is the Support of the mind. || 1 || The Saints worship and adore the Lotus Feet of the Divine Guru; they love the Beloved Lord. || 1 || Pause || She who has such good destiny written upon her forehead, says Nanak, is blessed with the eternal happy marriage with the Lord. || 2 || 43 || 94 || AASAA, FIFTH MEHL: The Order of my Husband Lord seems so sweet to me. My Husband Lord has driven out the one who was my rival. My Beloved Husband has decorated me, His happy soul-bride. He has quieted the burning thirst of my mind. || 1 || It is good that I submitted to the Will of my Beloved Lord. I have realized celestial peace and poise within this home of mine. || 1 || Pause || I am the hand-maiden, the attendant of my Beloved Lord. He is eternal and imperishable, inaccessible and infinite. Holding the fan, sitting at His Feet, I wave it over my Beloved. The five demons who tortured me have run away. || 2 || I am not from a noble family, and I am not beautiful. What do I know? Why am I pleasing to my Beloved? I am a poor orphan, destitute and dishonored. My Husband took me in, and made me His queen. || 3 || When I saw my Beloved's face before me, I became so happy and peaceful; my married life was blessed. Says Nanak, my desires are fulfilled. The True Guru has united me with God, the treasure of excellence. || 4 || 1 || 95 || AASAA, FIFTH MEHL: A frown creases her forehead, and her look is evil. Her speech is bitter, and her tongue is rude. She is always hungry, and she believes her Husband to be far away. || 1 || Such is Maya, the woman, which the One Lord has created. She is devouring the whole world, but the Guru has saved me, O my Siblings of Destiny.

The Guru Granth Sahib refers to God as both masculine and feminine. At times, God is referred to as our father, mother, friend, husband to a soul-bride, etc. God is unborn and does not die. God belongs to neither sex.

Your 3rd quote Page 471

He may issue whatever commands he wishes, but he shall have to take to the narrow path hereafter. He goes to hell naked, and he looks hideous then. He regrets the sins he committed. || 14 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist. This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me. It does not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost. Blessed are those mortal beings, O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks. You buy the thread for a few shells, and seated in your enclosure, you put it on. Whispering instructions into others' ears, the Brahmin becomes a guru. But he dies, and the sacred thread falls away, and the soul departs without it. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: He commits thousands of robberies, thousands of acts of adultery, thousands of falsehoods and thousands of abuses. He practices thousands of deceptions and secret deeds, night and day, against his fellow beings. The thread is spun from cotton, and the Brahmin comes and twists it. The goat is killed, cooked and eaten, and everyone then says, "Put on the sacred thread." When it wears out, it is thrown away, and another one is put on. O Nanak, the thread would not break, if it had any real strength. || 2 || FIRST MEHL: Believing in the Name, honor is obtained. The Lord's Praise is the true sacred thread. Such a sacred thread is worn in the Court of the Lord; it shall never break. || 3 || FIRST MEHL: There is no sacred thread for the sexual organ, and no thread for woman. The man's beard is spat upon daily. There is no sacred thread for the feet, and no thread for the hands; no thread for the tongue, and no thread for the eyes. The Brahmin himself goes to the world hereafter without a sacred thread. Twisting the threads, he puts them on others. He takes payment for performing marriages; reading their horoscopes, he shows them the way. Hear, and see, O people, this wondrous thing. He is mentally blind, and yet his name is wisdom.

Now wasn't your quote from this misquoted?! Do you know which thread they are referring to?

Your forth quote Page 526:

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts, says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart.

This emphasises on the need to medicate on the Lord's name, through poetry.

This is 5th quote Page 874:

|| 2 || 3 || GOND: I am restless and unhappy. Without her calf, the cow is lonely. || 1 || Without water, the fish writhes in pain. So is poor Naam Dayv without the Lord's Name. || 1 || Pause || Like the cow's calf, which, when let loose, sucks at her udders and drinks her milk - || 2 || So has Naam Dayv found the Lord. Meeting the Guru, I have seen the Unseen Lord. || 3 || As the man driven by sex wants another man's wife, so does Naam Dayv love the Lord. || 4 || As the earth burns in the dazzling sunlight, so does poor Naam Dayv burn without the Lord's Name. || 5 || 4 ||

And finally Page 951,

SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Men of charity gather wealth by committing sins, and then give it away in donations to charity. Their spiritual teachers go to their homes to instruct them. The woman loves the man only for his wealth; they come and go as they please. No one obeys the Shaastras or the Vedas. Everyone worships himself. Becoming judges, they sit and administer justice. They chant on their malas, and call upon God. They accept bribes, and block justice. If someone asks them, they read quotations from their books. The Muslim scriptures are in their ears and in their hearts. They plunder the people, and engage in gossip and flattery. They anoint their kitchens to try to become pure. Behold, such is the Hindu. The Yogi, with matted hair and ashes on his body, has become a householder. The children weep in front of him and behind him. He does not attain Yoga - he has lost his way. Why does he apply ashes to his forehead? O Nanak, this is the sign of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga; everyone says that he himself knows. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: The Hindu comes to the house of a Hindu. He puts the sacred thread around his neck and reads the scriptures. He puts on the thread, but does evil deeds. His cleansings and washings will not be approved.

Look at the way in which the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is written, picking a sentence here and there and interpreting in a manner in which you are hoping and desperate for it to mean isn't going to get you anywhere. This is poetry my dear.

The poetry of the Guru Granth is in itself a subject worthy of the highest consideration. The language principally employed is the language of the saints evolved during the medieval period-a language which, allowing for variations, still enjoyed wide currency in Northern India. Its appeal lay in its directness, energy and resilience. Based upon some of the local dialects, it was leavened with expressions from Sanskrit, Prakrit, Persian and Arabic.

I refer you to a website if you require further information on this topic http://www.sikhwomen.com/Guru_Quotes/women.htm

A being who realizes God, realizes that the female is in the male, and the male is in the female. Page 879, Line 3

bhaaee pooth pithaa prabh maathaa
God is my Brother, Son, Father and Mother
Guru Arjan, Raag Gauree, 240

O mother, how fruitful is the birth of one who sings the Glories of God, and enshrines love for the Supreme Lord God. ||1||Pause||
Guru Arjan, Raag Dayv Gandhaaree, 531

Nanak, the child, does not know anything at all. O God, please protect me; You are my Mother and Father.
Guru Arjan, Raag Prabhaatee, 1341

God is the Mother, the Father and the Protector of His slave.
Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairao, 1137

O Nanak, the Lord God is our father and mother. I am His child; the Lord cherishes me. ||4||6||18||
Guru Raam Daas, Raag Raamkalee, 882

Nice try.