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redray
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2324
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhism was organized to protect the freedom of religion of the followers of other religions. In other words, a 500 year old FFI....
JG |
If you had to to sum up the faith in one sentence, then perhaps that would be it!
_________________
Until Lions tell their own history, history will always glorify the hunters‘. |
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patriot
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 3606
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| redray wrote: |
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhism was organized to protect the freedom of religion of the followers of other religions. In other words, a 500 year old FFI....
JG |
If you had to to sum up the faith in one sentence, then perhaps that would be it! |
A 500 yr old FFI that compulsorily ask you not to cut your hair.
_________________
I seek the truth not defend any faith.
Patriotism can lead us to the path of spirituality and truth.The path of truth,righteousness, spirituality are only possible if we Indians unite India, protect it against invaders |
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redray
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2324
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: |
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[quote="freedom84"]
| Taqqiya Tactician wrote: |
I'm sure you're intelligent enough to do some research on the religion before you go speaking about it on a forum such as faith freedom. |
What you are dealing here with brother is people who have their own agenda against the faith. There is little or no point in inviting them to look at the real picture, they are not inclined to do it.
_________________
Until Lions tell their own history, history will always glorify the hunters‘. |
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One
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 215
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: |
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mÚ 4 ]
ma 4 ||
Fourth Mehla:
siqguru dwqw dieAwlu hY ijs no dieAw sdw hoie ]
sathigur dhaathaa dhaeiaal hai jis no dhaeiaa sadhaa hoe ||
The True Guru is the Merciful Giver; He is always compassionate.
siqguru AMdrhu inrvYru hY sBu dyKY bRhmu ieku soie ]
sathigur a(n)dharahu niravair hai sabh dhaekhai breham eik soe ||
The True Guru has no hatred within Him; He beholds the One God everywhere.
inrvYrw nwil ij vYru clwiedy iqn ivchu iqsitAw n koie ]
niravairaa naal j vair chalaaeidhae thin vichahu thisattiaa n koe ||
Anyone who directs hate against the One who has no hate, shall never be satisfied within.
siqguru sBnw dw Blw mnwiedw iqs dw burw ikau hoie ]
sathigur sabhanaa dhaa bhalaa manaaeidhaa this dhaa buraa kio hoe ||
The True Guru wishes everyone well; how can anything bad happen to Him?
siqgur no jyhw ko ieCdw qyhw Plu pwey koie ]
sathigur no jaehaa ko eishhadhaa thaehaa fal paaeae koe ||
As one feels towards the True Guru, so are the rewards he receives.
nwnk krqw sBu ikCu jwxdw ijdU ikCu guJw n hoie ]2]
naanak karathaa sabh kishh jaanadhaa jidhoo kishh gujhaa n hoe ||2||
O Nanak, the Creator knows everything; nothing can be hidden from Him. ||2|| |
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freedom84
Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 2671
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="redray"]
| freedom84 wrote: |
| Taqqiya Tactician wrote: |
I'm sure you're intelligent enough to do some research on the religion before you go speaking about it on a forum such as faith freedom. |
What you are dealing here with brother is people who have their own agenda against the faith. There is little or no point in inviting them to look at the real picture, they are not inclined to do it. |
agreed. 
_________________
"LONG LIVE REVOLUTION!"
- Shaheed Bhagat Singh |
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kinetic
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| John Galt wrote: |
All:
India was invaded from the north by the muslims. The hindus were converted to islam by force. Those who refused were massacred and their women raped and taken. |
Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, and later Sikhs themselves. Heard of the wadda ghallughara and the chotta ghallughara?
| John Galt wrote: |
There were ten Sikh Gurus. The tenth, Guru Gobind Singh, raised the Sikh army, called Khalsa, to protect the Hindus against forced conversions by the Muslim rulers. |
To protect Sikhs as well as Hindus in the region of Punjab, the tiny state in the northwest corner of India.
| John Galt wrote: |
Freedom of religion is enshrined in sikh scriptures. People may convert to Sikhism or leave it. Conversion by force is a big No, No.
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Please quote the exact verses.
| John Galt wrote: |
As opposed to Hinduism, Sikhs believe in One God and do not worship idols. It is closer to Christianity in some regards, including the fact that it follows a book - Guru Granth Sahib - that has the teachings of the Gurus and others. A Khalsa is not supposed to cut his hair. There are many sikhs that do cut their hair - but they stay sikhs.
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Opposed to hinduism? Only shows your ignorance of Hinduism. Closer to christianity because it has a single book. By that logic, it is closer to Islam too. In fact, very close.
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhs are not supposed to be ritualistic, but many are becoming so under the influlence of hinduism.
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Blame Hindus for everything you can't get right. Old habit of Sikhs.
| John Galt wrote: |
The religion treats women as equal to men - no better, no worse. |
And I scream IT'S A LIE, IT'S A LIE. Provide proof or shut up.
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikh women are in every field in India and in the west, inlcuding scientists, doctors, engineers, politicians and priests. |
True for all except muslim women perhaps. Is that something great about sikhism?
| John Galt wrote: |
In 1947, when India was partitioned, Sikhs lost a big part of their native state, Punjab, to Pakistan. All sikhs on the west side of Punjab (now in Pakistan) had to flee to the Indian side, over a matter of days, leaving their money, properties and possessions behind. On the way, they were looted, massacred and raped by the muslims. Women were taken away and forcybly married to muslims, never to be seen again by their families.
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Did that happen only with Sikhs? Sikhs and Hindus both were in a minority in the Pakistan side of Punjab. Hindus from all over Pakistan had to migrate to India, not just from punjab. Do you see Hindus still crying like Sikhs, after 50-60 years??
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhs constitue about 3% of India's population, but are represented very highly in India. The current Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, and so is the current Army chief.
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Credit the majority Hindus for allowing that to happen. Only a muslim or a sikh would tout that as an achievement of his co-religionist.
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhs are very patriotic about India. Most families have at least one son in the armed forces. |
I know many sikh families who have no member in the armed forces. Having said that, it is true that many sikhs do join the armed forces. That is because they choose it as a career option. They are required to be brave fighters, and where better to go than the army. Sikhs are as partiotic as any other Indian.
| John Galt wrote: |
Many sikhs have immigrated to the west and are very patriotic about their adopted homelands. |
Yes, unlike muslims. Is that something great and unique?
| John Galt wrote: |
Is this a perfect relision? As a religion it is very good - probably one of the best.
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Emotional judgement. How many religions have you studied?
| John Galt wrote: |
But then again, it is a religion and by definition a religion has belief in God, which may not be for an atheist like me. But I have not found anything in the Book to be racist, hateful or preaching ignorance. |
Unlike Islam, maybe yes. Is it unlike the other world religions (esp. eastern) in this respect?
| John Galt wrote: |
Some modern followers, especially the political and preist class have, for their own benefit, tried to create mischief between sikhs and hindus, demanding a separate country (khalistan), but most sikhs do not believe in that - they believe in India.
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One should hope so. Perhaps they can at least stop going to gurudwaras where such priests are employed, if they really believe in India. |
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Ghaiba
Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Equality of women
From the woman is our birth, in the woman's womb are we shaped; To the woman we are engaged, to the woman we are wedded; The woman is our friend and from woman is the family; Through the woman are the bonds of the world; Why call woman evil who gives birth to the world’s leaders? From the woman is the woman, without woman there is none". (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pp. 473)
Kirpan and Sikhism
For the followers of the Sikh faith, sword has a different connotation. It is one among the five Ks ordained by the 10th Sikh master Guru Gobind Singh for every Sikh. One of the Ks stands for Kirpan. This must not be construed that Sikhism propagates wielding of the sword for power. On the contrary, followers of the faith had been asked to wield it only against oppression, for the protection of the weak.
Kirpan is to be used to prevent violence against the defenceless when all other means to do so have failed. In fact, the kirpan represents the power of the truth to scythe through the untruth.
A Sikh upon his or her initiation into the Khalsa agrees to follow the Sikh Rehat Maryada, the Sikh code of conduct that calls to wear a ‘gatra’ (strapped kirpan) that is suspended near the waist.
A baptised Sikh, better known as a ‘sant-sepahi’ - a ‘saint-soldier’: a saint first and then a soldier. The kirpan is always kept sheathed, except when it is withdrawn from its casing on such occasions as blessing of the ‘karah parsad’, the ceremonial sweet pudding during religious ceremonies.
Sikhs often oppose the labelling of the kirpan as a weapon. Traditionally, a Sikh should never use the kirpan in anger or for a malicious attack. However, they have used it in self-defence or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of ‘gatka’ (martial art), devised during the Guru period that uses circular movements to effectively swing a kirpan.
The practice of Sikhs carrying the kirpan as a religious symbol can be traced back to the lifetime of the sixth Sikh master, Guru Hargobind (1595-1644). Guru Hargobind regularly carried two swords, symbolic of a Sikh’s spiritual as well as temporal obligations.
Tell me Kinetic why u would put a sword to someones throat? |
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redray
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2324
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="kinetic"][quote="John Galt"]
All:
Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, and later Sikhs themselves. Heard of the wadda ghallughara and the chotta ghallughara?
The Wadda one maybe but the chhota one was not instigated by the Mughals
In order to avenge the death of his brother, Diwan Lakhpat Rai had got all the Sikhs of Lahore executed by scavengers on the 10th March, 1746 AD after that he marched with an army of fifty thousand and the artillery to wipe out the Sikhs. In those days, about Fifteen thousand Sikhs had taken shelter in the marshes of river Ravi near the pool of Kahnuwan in Gurdaspur District about 20 kms North west of current day Gurdaspur. The forces of Lakhpat Rai besieged the marshes and began pounding the area with cannons from outside. Finding themselves helpless against guns of the royal army, the Sikhs headed for the hills. The army moved in pursuit. The rations, the Sikhs had, were finished. Whenever they found an oppurtunity, the Sikhs robbed the army and went away.
One evening the Sikhs came out of the bushes and attacked the army but when the army went after them, they retreated a long way back. The army thought that the Sikhs had gone away. The detachment of the army went to sleep worrilessly. The Sikhs returned, took hold of the horses, rations and the weapons of the detachment and returned to take shelter in the bushes again. The Sikhs crossed the river Ravi and started for the towns of Parol and Kathua. The Sikhs were of the view that Hindu population of the hills would give them shelter but the hill people welcomed them with bullets and stones. They had also received order of Diwan Lakhpat Rai. "Whosoever gives shelter to the Sikhs will meet the same fate as that of the Sikhs."
| John Galt wrote: |
There were ten Sikh Gurus. The tenth, Guru Gobind Singh, raised the Sikh army, called Khalsa, to protect the Hindus against forced conversions by the Muslim rulers. |
To protect Sikhs as well as Hindus in the region of Punjab, the tiny state in the northwest corner of India.
By 'tiny' you minimise quite wrongly the effect Sikh had over India. Various travelled far all over India. Guru Gobind Singh himself was born in Patna. Sikhs consistently fought and won battles where they were hugely outnumbered. The word 'tiny' has simply no application here.
| John Galt wrote: |
Freedom of religion is enshrined in sikh scriptures. People may convert to Sikhism or leave it. Conversion by force is a big No, No.
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Please quote the exact verses.
There are many verses. This is a common and well known Sikh teacxhing. I will source them for you.
| John Galt wrote: |
As opposed to Hinduism, Sikhs believe in One God and do not worship idols. It is closer to Christianity in some regards, including the fact that it follows a book - Guru Granth Sahib - that has the teachings of the Gurus and others. A Khalsa is not supposed to cut his hair. There are many sikhs that do cut their hair - but they stay sikhs.
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Opposed to hinduism? Only shows your ignorance of Hinduism. Closer to christianity because it has a single book. By that logic, it is closer to Islam too. In fact, very close.
Wherefrom have the Hindus come? Wherefrom the Muslims?
Who is it that created the (two) paths?
O, man of evil intent, reflect on this in yur mind;
Who, pray, is the Creator of heaven and hell?
O Qazi, which is the book that you've read,
For, they who read and reflect like you are wasted away.
As they know not the essence.
Circumcision is made for love of the woman, so I shall not be convinced (of its use).
For, if the Lord so Wills that I be born a Muslim,
I shall be circumcised by God Himself.
If circumcision alone makes one a Muslim, what is to be done to a woman?
For, she is our other half, and she leaves us not, so why not remain a
Hindu?
Give up your book and dwell on the Lord, and oppress not life.
Kabir has taken to his only Lord, but the Muslims (like you) are
frustrated by their fruitless strife. (Asa Kabir)
The Hindu is blind; the Muslim is one-eyed,
The wise, all-seeing, is (only) the one Wise in God.
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque,
But Namdeva worships the God, who has no temple, and no mosque, to
call His own. (Rag Gond Bilawal, Namdev)
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhs are not supposed to be ritualistic, but many are becoming so under the influlence of hinduism.
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Blame Hindus for everything you can't get right. Old habit of Sikhs.
Why do feel Mr Galt is a Sikh? Empty rituals are castigated;
I know not what pleases my Lord. Seek thou the Way, O my mind! The contemplator practises contemplation, And the wise work through wisdom; But rare is the one who Knows the Lord. The Vaishnava practises the (outer) discipline. The yogi aspires for emancipation. The ascetic is attached to asceticism. The man of silence observes silence. The Sanyasin (is in renunciation), and The celibate (sticks to celibacy) The stotic abides in dispassion. The worship of the worshippers is of nine kinds; the Pundits read aloud the Vedas; The householder is involved with his household. The chameleon-faced ones, and those who utter but one word, and the nudes;
The robed ones, the showmen and those that keep awake, And others who bathe in the holy waters. The fasting ones, and those that do not touch others, And the recluses whom no one can see, And those wise in their own minds; No one says he is lesser (than the others) And all declare: "We've found, we've found", But he alone is the Devotee whom the Lord Unites of Himself (with Himself) Nanak has abandoned all effort, all argument, And sought the Refuge of the Lord, And so he surrenders himself to the Feet of his God.
(Sri Rag M. 1)
| John Galt wrote: |
The religion treats women as equal to men - no better, no worse. |
And I scream IT'S A LIE, IT'S A LIE. Provide proof or shut up.
See Ghaiba post above.
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikh women are in every field in India and in the west, inlcuding scientists, doctors, engineers, politicians and priests. |
True for all except muslim women perhaps. Is that something great about sikhism?
There are stats. that demonstrate that despite their relatively small number, Sikh women have excelled comparively better off than other faiths in the sub continent. If you dispute this let me know and I will source the research for you.
| John Galt wrote: |
In 1947, when India was partitioned, Sikhs lost a big part of their native state, Punjab, to Pakistan. All sikhs on the west side of Punjab (now in Pakistan) had to flee to the Indian side, over a matter of days, leaving their money, properties and possessions behind. On the way, they were looted, massacred and raped by the muslims. Women were taken away and forcybly married to muslims, never to be seen again by their families.
|
Did that happen only with Sikhs? Sikhs and Hindus both were in a minority in the Pakistan side of Punjab. Hindus from all over Pakistan had to migrate to India, not just from punjab. Do you see Hindus still crying like Sikhs, after 50-60 years??
Sikhs were at the forefront of this. Is is really necessary to go over issues that are clearly fact?
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhs constitue about 3% of India's population, but are represented very highly in India. The current Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, and so is the current Army chief.
|
Credit the majority Hindus for allowing that to happen. Only a muslim or a sikh would tout that as an achievement of his co-religionist.
The current leader is Sonia Gandhi puppet. The only other field have excelled in INDIA is the armed forces, where they are considered dispensible.
| John Galt wrote: |
Sikhs are very patriotic about India. Most families have at least one son in the armed forces. |
I know many sikh families who have no member in the armed forces. Having said that, it is true that many sikhs do join the armed forces. That is because they choose it as a career option. They are required to be brave fighters, and where better to go than the army. Sikhs are as partiotic as any other Indian.
agreed, but their sense of discipline comes from their pride and knowledge of duty rather than patrioism
| John Galt wrote: |
Many sikhs have immigrated to the west and are very patriotic about their adopted homelands. |
Yes, unlike muslims. Is that something great and unique?
This sounds bitter.
| John Galt wrote: |
Is this a perfect relision? As a religion it is very good - probably one of the best.
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Emotional judgement. How many religions have you studied?
This sounds like you are in denial.
| John Galt wrote: |
But then again, it is a religion and by definition a religion has belief in God, which may not be for an atheist like me. But I have not found anything in the Book to be racist, hateful or preaching ignorance. |
Unlike Islam, maybe yes. Is it unlike the other world religions (esp. eastern) in this respect?
| John Galt wrote: |
Some modern followers, especially the political and preist class have, for their own benefit, tried to create mischief between sikhs and hindus, demanding a separate country (khalistan), but most sikhs do not believe in that - they believe in India.
|
One should hope so. Perhaps they can at least stop going to gurudwaras where such priests are employed, if they really believe in India.
This is a discussion for another day.
quote]
_________________
Until Lions tell their own history, history will always glorify the hunters‘. |
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kinetic
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Ghaiba wrote: |
Equality of women
From the woman is our birth, in the woman's womb are we shaped; To the woman we are engaged, to the woman we are wedded; The woman is our friend and from woman is the family; Through the woman are the bonds of the world; Why call woman evil who gives birth to the world’s leaders? From the woman is the woman, without woman there is none". (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pp. 473)
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Another translation of the verse:
| Quote: |
First Mehl:
From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. |
This is called stating the obvious.
It is like muhammad telling us that the best place to sit is where there is enough room.http://www.wikiislam.org/index.php/Laughing_with_Muhammad#Stating_the_Obvious
Where does it say woman is equal to man? |
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redray
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2324
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="kinetic"]
| Ghaiba wrote: |
Where does it say woman is equal to man? |
SGGS - In praise of women.
"We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473)
Marriage is an equal partnership of love and sharing between husband and wife.
"They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. Rather they alone are called husband and wife, who have one soul in two bodies." (Guru Amar Das, Pauri, pg. 788)
Women have an equal right to participate in the congregation.
"Come my sisters and dear comrades! Clasp me in thine embrace. Meeting together, let us tell the tales of our Omnipotent Spouse (God). In the True Lord are all merits, in us all demerits." (Guru Nanak Dev, Sri Rag, pg. 17)
God is the husband and we are all his brides.
"The spouse is but One and all others are His brides. The false bride assumes many religious garbs. When the Lord stops her going into another's home, then is she summoned into her Lord's mansion without any let and hindrance. She is adorned with the Name and is dear to her True Lord. She alone is the true bride and the Lord lends her His support." (Guru Nanak Dev, Ramkali, pg. 933)
God is our Mother as well as our Father.
"Thou O Lord, art my Father and Thou my Mother. Thou art the Giver of peace to my soul and very life." (Guru Arjan Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1144)
Faithfulness to ones spouse is stressed.
"The blind-man abandons the wife of his home, and has an affair with another's woman. He is like the parrot, who is pleased to see the simbal tree, but at last dies clinging to it." (Bhagat Nam Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1165)
The rape and brutalities committed against women by the Mughal invader Babar condemned.
"Modesty and righteousness both have vanished and falsehood moves about as the leader, O Lalo. The function of the Qazis and the Brahmins is over and the Satan now reads the marriage rites (rape). The Muslim women read the Quran and in suffering call upon God, O Lalo. The Hindu women of high cast and others of low caste, may also be put in the same account, O Lalo." (Guru Nanak Dev, Tilang, pg. 722)
The practice of women burning themselves on their husband's funeral pyre (sati) condemned.
"They cannot be called satis, who burn themselves with their dead husbands. They can only be called satis, if they bear the shock of separation. They may also be known as satis, who live with character and contentment and always show veneration to their husbands by remembering them." (Guru Amar Das, Var Suhi, pg. 787)
The ritual of dowry so prevalent in Indian society condemned.
"Any other dowry, which the perverse place for show, that is false pride and worthless gilding. O' my Father! give me the Name of Lord God as a gift and dowry." (Guru Ram Das, Sri Rag, pg. 79)
Views of the Gurus
Guru Nanak Dev
Guru Nanak broke the shackles of women by admitting them into the sangat (congregation) without any restrictions or reservations. Guru Nanak felt that his message was meant as much for women as for men.
Guru Angad Dev
Guru Angad encouraged the education of all Sikhs, men and women.
Guru Amar Das
Guru Amar Das condemned the cruel custom of sati, female infanticide and advocated widow remarriage. Guru Amar Das also believed that women wearing veils (purdah) was demeaning. The Guru refused to meet the queen of Haripur or to allow any women into the congregation wearing a veil.
Guru Hargobind
Guru Hargobind respected women and declared, "women is the conscience of man".
It is not possible to be any clearer, wouldn't you agree? Remember we are talking400-500 years ago. When did the suffragettes get their way here?
_________________
Until Lions tell their own history, history will always glorify the hunters‘. |
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freedom84
Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 2671
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| kinetic wrote: |
| Ghaiba wrote: |
Equality of women
From the woman is our birth, in the woman's womb are we shaped; To the woman we are engaged, to the woman we are wedded; The woman is our friend and from woman is the family; Through the woman are the bonds of the world; Why call woman evil who gives birth to the world’s leaders? From the woman is the woman, without woman there is none". (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pp. 473)
|
Another translation of the verse:
| Quote: |
First Mehl:
From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. |
This is called stating the obvious.
It is like muhammad telling us that the best place to sit is where there is enough room.http://www.wikiislam.org/index.php/Laughing_with_Muhammad#Stating_the_Obvious
Where does it say woman is equal to man?
Is this the nearest that Sikhism gets on this issue? |
Brother, why do you find the need to be so arrogant?
I'm happy you accepted the answers to your questions on the above posts.
From woman, man is born;
within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.
When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.
From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.
Guru Nanak, Raag Aasaa Mehla 1, Page 473
The Sikh Women always have been, and always will be, the backbone of the Khalsa Panth. Their selflessness lies second to none in the world. In fact, this quality of theirs has earned them the Godly qualities in their lifetime (due to the extremely important responsibilities placed on them) that their male counterparts may not be able to earn
Guru Nanak worked for the welfare of all to achieve which he strived for equality amongst all. Towards this aim, freeing the female of the overbearing influence of male was of utmost importance. Reading about the lives of some of the women of the Guru period, one realises the extent to which the Gurus were able to achieve their aim.
In Sikhism, the Holy Scriptures have clearly stated that the Sikh woman has always been regarded as an equal with man and has all the rights and privileges enjoyed by a man. She is considered to have the same soul as man and has equal right to grow spiritually. The Sikh woman is allowed to lead religious congregations, to take part in Akhand Path (the continuous recitation of the Holy Scriptures), to perform Kirtan, to work as Granthi (priest) or a preacher and to participate freely in all religious, cultural, social, political and secular activities.
Sikh woman have played a glorious part in Sikh History and have proven themselves as equal in service, devotion, sacrifice and bravery. Examples of their moral dignity, service and self sacrifice are and will remain a source of inspiration. Women are the backbone of the history of the Sikhs, their culture and tradition yet there is little written about this huge contribution by the Sikh women to the great history of this religion. Man and woman are two sides of the same coin - the human race. Man takes birth from a woman and woman is born of a man. This system is interrelating and inter-dependent. A man can never feel secure and complete in life without a woman. A man’s success depends upon the love and support of the woman who shares her life with him and vice versa.
In the tumultuous decades of the eighteenth century when Sikhs went through fierce persecution, the women displayed exemplary steadfastness. Their deeds of heroism and sacrifice are to this day recounted morning and evening by the Sikhs in their ardas.
“Our mothers and sisters,” they repeat every time in their prayer, “who plied handmills in the jails of Mannu [the Mughal governor of Lahore (1748-53)], grinding daily a maund-and-a-quarter of corn each, who saw their children being hacked to pieces in front of their eyes, but who uttered not a moan from their lips and remained steadfast in their Sikh faith—recall their spirit of fortitude and sacrifice, and say, Vahiguru, Glory be to God!”
Guru Amar Das, the third guru, wrote :
"Only they are truly wedded who have one spirit in two bodies." 8
Guru Amar Das abolished the tradition of Sati and Purdah and indeed refused to have an audience with ladies that kept Purdah. He established religious centers and women alongside men were recruited to lead and teach. Women worked alongside the men in maintaining the Guru’s kitchen, performing all duties and sitting side by side the men folk in Pangat.
Guru Angad strongly encouraged the education of women.
With the birth of the Khalsa the last of the barriers of caste and gender oppression had been smashed. Women though continuing their roles of mothers and wives were forever changed. They were lifted up and given the same Amrit at the side of their brothers. The same rules that applied to them to follow the Khalsa way applied to them. They were granted the same 5 K’s. Guru Gobind Singh's encouragement of women to keep even shastars symbolized that he did not envision her role in society as being that of a "nice, meek housewife," but rather that of a fearless, active, independent warrior, involved in the world.
Kaur became her name. Kaur has an interesting history. Its origin can be found in the word Kanwar, literally meaning a Crown Prince. Women were given Kaur to give them an identity independent of that of their husband and to uplift their spirit. Indeed it has been recorded in oral tradition that Guru Gobind Singh referred to his brave daughters as ‘Sahibzadey’ or sons for the valor they exhibited in battle.
At the time of Guru Gobind Singh, women who were literally and legally possessions of their husbands in Europe and in the American colonies, women who had no voice in administration in Europe, the Americas or India were now orators, teachers, warriors, and administrators and participated in the Guru’s kitchen. Guru Gobind Singh’s wife Mata Sundri led the Khalsa Panth for many years after passing of the tenth Guru. Jathedar Sada Kaur along with Maharaja Ranjit Singh made possible the formation of the Sikh Empire. She gave her contribution to the Amrit, sweet Patashey so that the disposition of the Sikhs would be also sweet. This is in a time when Hindu women were forbidden to read Vedic literature and or perform most religious rites.
Many other women were commanders of their own battalions and died on the battlefield. After Guru Gobind Singh the situation of not only women but also lower castes had deteriorated as people regained the old ways of caste and the oppression of women. The old habits and attitudes as you read in the laws of Manu continue in some form or another to ensnare the Sikh Nation as Brahmanic infiltration regained a foothold during the 19th century.
In regards to marriage:
"They are not called husband and wife who merely sit together Rather they alone are called husband and wife who have one soul in two bodies."
In regards to the odious practice of Sati:
"A Sati is not she, who burns herself on the pyre of her spouse. Nanak, a Sati is she, who dies with the sheer shock of separation (from God). Yea, the Sati is one who lives contended and embellishes herself with good conduct (rather than jewels and dress) And cherishing her Lord ever calls on Him each morning. The women burn themselves on the pyres of their lords, If they love their spouses well, they suffer the pangs of separation. (moh) She who loves not her spouse, why burns she herself in fire? For, be he alive or dead she owns him not (only God does)" Page 787,13, SGGSji Guru Amar Das)
Guru Hargobind called woman "the conscience of man "without whom moral living was impossible. Child marriage was discouraged and the practice of female infanticide, which had been strongly discouraged, was severely banned. Guru Gobind Singh enshrined in the Khalsa code of conduct for his Khalsa, male or female not to have social conduct, relations or marriage to those who kill their daughters. This Hukam is always told in any Amrit Sanchaar.
Regarding the practice of Purdah:
"Stay, stay, O daughter-in-law - do not cover your face with a veil. In the end, this shall not bring you even half a shell. The one before you used to veil her face; do not follow in her footsteps. The only merit in veiling your face is that for a few days, people will say, "What a noble bride has come". Your veil shall be true only if you skip, dance and sing the Glorious praises of the Lord (P. 484, SGGSji, Kabeer)
Women and indeed all souls were strongly encouraged to lead a spiritual life:
"Come, my dear sisters and spiritual companions; hug me close in your embrace. Let's join together, and tell stories of our All-powerful Husband Lord."-Guru Nanak, pg 17, Guru Granth Sahib. |
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freedom84
Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 2671
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: |
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[quote="redray"]
| kinetic wrote: |
| Ghaiba wrote: |
Where does it say woman is equal to man? |
SGGS - In praise of women.
"We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473)
Marriage is an equal partnership of love and sharing between husband and wife.
"They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. Rather they alone are called husband and wife, who have one soul in two bodies." (Guru Amar Das, Pauri, pg. 788)
Women have an equal right to participate in the congregation.
"Come my sisters and dear comrades! Clasp me in thine embrace. Meeting together, let us tell the tales of our Omnipotent Spouse (God). In the True Lord are all merits, in us all demerits." (Guru Nanak Dev, Sri Rag, pg. 17)
God is the husband and we are all his brides.
"The spouse is but One and all others are His brides. The false bride assumes many religious garbs. When the Lord stops her going into another's home, then is she summoned into her Lord's mansion without any let and hindrance. She is adorned with the Name and is dear to her True Lord. She alone is the true bride and the Lord lends her His support." (Guru Nanak Dev, Ramkali, pg. 933)
God is our Mother as well as our Father.
"Thou O Lord, art my Father and Thou my Mother. Thou art the Giver of peace to my soul and very life." (Guru Arjan Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1144)
Faithfulness to ones spouse is stressed.
"The blind-man abandons the wife of his home, and has an affair with another's woman. He is like the parrot, who is pleased to see the simbal tree, but at last dies clinging to it." (Bhagat Nam Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1165)
The rape and brutalities committed against women by the Mughal invader Babar condemned.
"Modesty and righteousness both have vanished and falsehood moves about as the leader, O Lalo. The function of the Qazis and the Brahmins is over and the Satan now reads the marriage rites (rape). The Muslim women read the Quran and in suffering call upon God, O Lalo. The Hindu women of high cast and others of low caste, may also be put in the same account, O Lalo." (Guru Nanak Dev, Tilang, pg. 722)
The practice of women burning themselves on their husband's funeral pyre (sati) condemned.
"They cannot be called satis, who burn themselves with their dead husbands. They can only be called satis, if they bear the shock of separation. They may also be known as satis, who live with character and contentment and always show veneration to their husbands by remembering them." (Guru Amar Das, Var Suhi, pg. 787)
The ritual of dowry so prevalent in Indian society condemned.
"Any other dowry, which the perverse place for show, that is false pride and worthless gilding. O' my Father! give me the Name of Lord God as a gift and dowry." (Guru Ram Das, Sri Rag, pg. 79)
Views of the Gurus
Guru Nanak Dev
Guru Nanak broke the shackles of women by admitting them into the sangat (congregation) without any restrictions or reservations. Guru Nanak felt that his message was meant as much for women as for men.
Guru Angad Dev
Guru Angad encouraged the education of all Sikhs, men and women.
Guru Amar Das
Guru Amar Das condemned the cruel custom of sati, female infanticide and advocated widow remarriage. Guru Amar Das also believed that women wearing veils (purdah) was demeaning. The Guru refused to meet the queen of Haripur or to allow any women into the congregation wearing a veil.
Guru Hargobind
Guru Hargobind respected women and declared, "women is the conscience of man".
It is not possible to be any clearer, wouldn't you agree? Remember we are talking400-500 years ago. When did the suffragettes get their way here? |
Looks like redray had the honour to answer this question before me! |
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redray
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2324
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: |
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[quote="freedom84"][quote="redray"][quote="kinetic"]
| Ghaiba wrote: |
Looks like redray had the honour to answer this question before me! |
Notable Sikh Women in history
Bibi Nanaki
Bibi Nanaki was the first person to recognize Guru Nanak as a prophet and missionary early in his life. Bibi Nanaki (Guru Nanak's sister) and Mata Tripta (Guru Nanak's mother) played very important roles in encouraging young Nanak to persue his lifelong mission.
Mata Khivi
Mata Khivi was the wife of Guru Angad Dev and was in charge of the langar (community kitchen). She was an unlimited source of bounty and helped create a new social consciousness for women.
Mai Bhago
Mai Bhago was the brave women who shamed the 40 deserters to return to the battle of Muktsar. She led them into battle where they achieved martyrdom and were blessed by Guru Gobind Singh.
Mata Jitoji
During the baptism ceremony of the Khalsa in 1699, Guru Gobind Singh asked Mata Jitoji to participate in the first baptism by adding sugar cakes (patashas) to water which was stirred with the khanda (double edged sword) and administered to the Khalsa as amrit (sweet water).
Bibi Bhani
Bibi Bhani has a unique position in Sikh history as the daughter of a Guru (Guru Amar Das), wife of a Guru (Guru Ram Das) and mother of a Guru (Guru Arjan Dev). Bibi Bhani was an inspiration during the formative period of Sikh history and symbolizes responsibility, dedication, humility and fortitude.
Mata Gujri
Mata Gujri was an illuminating force behind her husband Guru Tegh Bahadur and her son Guru Gobind Singh. After the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur, Mata Gujri guided and inspired her son Guru Gobind Singh. She was responsible for the training of the Sahibzadas (the four sons of Guru Gobind Singh) who gave up their lives for Sikhism at a young age. Mata Gujri was an inspiring force during one of the most difficult times in Sikh history.
Mata Sahib Kaur
Because of her purity, Guru Gobind Singh declared that Sikhs should consider Mata Sahib Kaur as the spiritual mother of the Khalsa.
Mata Sundri
The widow of Guru Gobind Singh, Mata Sundri helped provide leadership for the Sikhs in a very difficult and tumultuous time following the death of Guru Gobind Singh. She helped maintain the sanctity of the Guru Granth Sahib as the only successor of Guru Gobind Singh and dealt strictly with pretenders and aspires of Guruship.
Sikh Missionaries
Guru Amar Das trained missionaries to spread Sikhism throughout the country. Of the 146 missionaries Guru Amar Das trained and sent out, 52 were women. At one time the country of Afghanistan and Kashmir were under the jurisdiction of women masands (priests). These women had complete jurisdiction in decision making, collection of revenues as well as preaching to congregations.
_________________
Until Lions tell their own history, history will always glorify the hunters‘. |
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kinetic
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| freedom84 wrote: |
Brother, why do you find the need to be so arrogant? |
Sister, please bear with me. I am what I am.
| freedom84 wrote: |
I'm happy you accepted the answers to your questions on the above posts. |
Hey hold it, hold it. I have not responded does not mean I have agreed with all that you posted. I am burdened with work, and will respond whenever convenient. There's much more in everybody's life than just FFI 
Please do not give me stories about sikh women managing kitchens or helping around the faithful, as if it is a great achievement.
Sikhs love to claim that women were granted equal status by Gurus for the first time since the creation of the world. Prove it with quotes from scriptures.
You are yet to answer so I repeat-
Where does it say women are equal to men? |
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redray
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2324
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| kinetic wrote: |
Where does it say women are equal to men? |
I can only surmise that you are joking!
Ask 100 resonable men (or women  ) if the above teachings indicate that women are to be treated as equal to men and 99 will say yes, beyond any doubt. It seems you are to be the odd one out.
It is all there in front of you. But you are right, whether you chose to accept it or not is up to you, sister.
_________________
Until Lions tell their own history, history will always glorify the hunters‘.
Last edited by redray on Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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