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pilgrim
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2054
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 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Humanist"]
| freeland wrote: |
If I were a Muslim, a man, a martyr, I would have 70 virgins at my feet. I’m not a Muslim, I’m not a man, I don’t want to be a martyr.
I wonder what’s going to happen to me after death…  X |
I wish I could believe in life after death, but based on everything that I can glean it will just be oblivion. Of course that is not that bad. It sure is a lot better than hell.
If the Muslims and some Christians I know go to heaven/paradise I sure don’t want to go there. |
You do not chose your eternity whether 6 feet underground and recycled, or somewhere else were you know not.
But here on earth there are Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Animists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, doctors, engineers, garbage collectors, carpenters, singers, straight, gay, healthy, sick......... and some FFI forummers I would not want them to be next door or in the same neighborhood, or same country, or same earth.
My point is you do not make a point except to say that some Muslims or Chritians have been a pain in the ass.
| Quote: |
| So oblivion appears to be the destination for all Human Beings, just like elephants, dogs, lizards etc. |
Is this an opinion?
Prove it.
I am not kidding.
Plese right several shortmediumlong paragraphs, why you believe 6 feet under the ground is the final end, and please do not quote any one.
Please do not dismiss my request. Consider it an intellectual, or philosophical challenge. Think of me (Pilgrim) as someone at the store looking for an article to buy and you are an emplyeee who walks up to me and says politely with a pleasant smile "how can I help you sir, Miss?"
best regards |
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Humanist
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:23 am Post subject: |
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[quote="pilgrim"]
| Quote: |
| Humanist wrote: |
| freeland wrote: |
If I were a Muslim, a man, a martyr, I would have 70 virgins at my feet. I’m not a Muslim, I’m not a man, I don’t want to be a martyr.
I wonder what’s going to happen to me after death… X |
I wish I could believe in life after death, but based on everything that I can glean it will just be oblivion. Of course that is not that bad. It sure is a lot better than hell.
If the Muslims and some Christians I know go to heaven/paradise I sure don’t want to go there. |
You do not chose your eternity whether 6 feet underground and recycled, or somewhere else were you know not.
But here on earth there are Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Animists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, doctors, engineers, garbage collectors, carpenters, singers, straight, gay, healthy, sick......... and some FFI forummers I would not want them to be next door or in the same neighborhood, or same country, or same earth.
My point is you do not make a point except to say that some Muslims or Chritians have been a pain in the ass.
| Quote: |
| So oblivion appears to be the destination for all Human Beings, just like elephants, dogs, lizards etc. |
Is this an opinion?
Prove it.
I am not kidding.
Plese right several shortmediumlong paragraphs, why you believe 6 feet under the ground is the final end, and please do not quote any one.
Please do not dismiss my request. Consider it an intellectual, or philosophical challenge. Think of me (Pilgrim) as someone at the store looking for an article to buy and you are an emplyeee who walks up to me and says politely with a pleasant smile "how can I help you sir, Miss?"
best regards |
Okay Pilgrim here goes:.
I can find no physical proof of life after death. I was raised Southern Baptist and by the time I was 10 years old I was agnostic. I was told that God would answer prayer but he never responded to me. Religious people would tell me all about God doing wonderful things for them in their life. I reasoned that it was just plain luck instead of God’s doing. During college I was an atheist nearly, but because of fear that I might be wrong I would never say what I was.
Most of the intellectuals of merit (people with far more intellect than me) feel the same as I that there is no God. Most of my friends who were raised in religious households feel that there is no God. If there were truly a God the religions would not be so screwed up in their Holy Scriptures. If there were a God we would see some revelation of that fact. So my precepts are that man invented God because oblivion was not good enough for man after he died.
I have never been presented with any factors to make me believe that God exists. The Christian answer to this is that I must have faith. Well before I can have faith I must be presented with some factor to reinforce that faith.
We are creatures of this wonderful planet. When we die it will be just like it was prior to our birth, oblivion.
_________________
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| lilith wrote: |
| But christians turned nasty and so did muslims. |
Some chistians turned 'nasty' despite their "prophet's" guidance otherwise.
Muslims who "turn nasty" do so because their "prophet" was nasty as he is "the best example to follow". |
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lilith
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:04 am Post subject: |
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We also blame muslims for not speaking up and your forgetting Matthew on picking up the sword etc.
I read some Philo in connection with paul the zealot and Jezus the nazareen(also a zealot so to speak)
So christianity is what the church dishes out.
And if we blame muslims who can also be enlighted than why not do the same with christians?
| Quote: |
"Feelings are not supposed to be logical. Dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions."
-David Borenstein, January 28, 2000
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I could never be willingly become part of a murdering sekt, be they christian, islam or kali or one of many different believesystems.
And it has always been beyond me that people could have that level of immorality even after being told these raw historic facts.
The church is the body of christ, so one is submitted to that. Read from Paul all the way to Augustine, and to me it's no different from mo's invention or the baghwan with 60 mercedesses.
_________________
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean;
if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.
Where there is love there is life."
Mahatma Gandhi |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| lilith wrote: |
We also blame muslims for not speaking up and your forgetting Matthew on picking up the sword etc.
I read some Philo in connection with paul the zealot and Jezus the nazareen(also a zealot so to speak)
So christianity is what the church dishes out.
And if we blame muslims who can also be enlighted than why not do the same with christians? |
Talking about "blame"...........................
Islam:
We can "blame" BOTH the muslims AND their "prophet".
Christianity:
We can "blame" ONLY the people and NOT their "prophet".
Islam and Christianity:
We can "blame" their god(s) and their satan(s)....................."ordered by god"........."the devil made me do it"
I don't know of any instance when Jesus said that "god said" to harm, hate, kill, deceive, etc.
I know of many instances when Mohammed said that "god said" to harm, hate, kill, etc.
To follow the true teachings of christ is to love ALL.
To follow the true teachings of Mohammed is to love SOME and hate the rest.
Forget the christian religion for a moment, can you "blame" Jesus for anything that is against the well being of fellow man?
What about the "blame" that rests with Mohammed?
To teach the "wrong-christians" (the "blamable") to follow their "prophet's" real guidance leads to peace, kindness, mercy, love, compassion, humanitarianism, etc.
To teach the "wrong and right Muslims" (the "blamable") to follow their "prophet's" real guidance leads to hatered, discrimination, oppression, cruelty, murder, slavery, lying, etc.
Some nasty people who call(ed) themselves christians don't/didn't follow the guidance of their "prophet", i.e. Jesus.
Most christians nowadays, are not nasty anymore, they deplore the nasty-past, regret it, and are sorry that it happened seeing their predecessors and present-day violators of Jesus' guidance as wrong in their interpretations.
Most nasty people who call(ed) themselves muslims DO/DID follow the guidance of their "prophet", i.e. Mohammed.
Most muslims nowadays, follow the guidance of Mohammed, exhalt this criminal as a perfect example, and approve the muslims' nasty past, giving divine approval and justification.
Today it is Mohammed's Islam that is THE major threat to human-kind.
The christians, generally, are poised to confront this threat, have no barriers in unity with non-christians, and pose no such threat to human-kind, why focus on the faults of a FEW christians?
It is tangent to the main issue here and serves little purpose in being effective in the fight against the REAL enemy.
It is playing into the hands of the islamists to divide the anti-islam camp.
United we stand!........................the muslims have this mantra already........we must unite, not divide. |
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lilith
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I've allready seen to many samples here on this forum on the hate christians spread.
It all has very little to do with human rights, but is closer to abolishing human rights.
So that healed me from some sort of 'friendly christian' notion.
I know how friendly christians should sound.
The 'american' variation is a different ball game. (Taking it that a lot of those voices are american)
An apostasized muslim, turning rabidly christian, still has the same cultural biasses. And lo and behold they also fit the christian format.
So human rights fighters are turning into a minority on this forum with all this stuff going on as in society.
Rightwing thinking is showing it's ugliest face in reaction to this threat of "muslims emulating mohammed'.
Well they are muslim brotherhood allies, so keep that distinction.
Than i will see the good in some christians.
(Christians blame quraan users of stealing from their book. Well they do the same with the Jewish books. The jewish again with the code of hamurabi. But most christians will not acknowledge that they abuse and deform the jewish books.)
And if at all possible, we could finally have a sensible discussion on woman and human rights on this forum.
_________________
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean;
if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.
Where there is love there is life."
Mahatma Gandhi |
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Humanist
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| lilith wrote: |
I've allready seen to many samples here on this forum on the hate christians spread.
It all has very little to do with human rights, but is closer to abolishing human rights.
So that healed me from some sort of 'friendly christian' notion.
I know how friendly christians should sound.
The 'american' variation is a different ball game. (Taking it that a lot of those voices are american)
An apostasized muslim, turning rabidly christian, still has the same cultural biasses. And lo and behold they also fit the christian format.
So human rights fighters are turning into a minority on this forum with all this stuff going on as in society.
Rightwing thinking is showing it's ugliest face in reaction to this threat of "muslims emulating mohammed'.
Well they are muslim brotherhood allies, so keep that distinction.
Than i will see the good in some christians.
(Christians blame quraan users of stealing from their book. Well they do the same with the Jewish books. The jewish again with the code of hamurabi. But most christians will not acknowledge that they abuse and deform the jewish books.)
And if at all possible, we could finally have a sensible discussion on woman and human rights on this forum. |
Christian countries came up with free secular societies. That is a fact that remains unique only to Christian societies. With all its faults no other religious groups can make that statement. Of course it took nearly 1,800 years for the process to happen.
But in the late 18th Century the United States came up with a secular free society. Free from the Church. Free from Monarchy. Free from divine rights to rule. Then France followed the lead. England changed it government to reflect the secular principles.
Women in the United States are free and even have more rights than men. It took 200 years of amending the laws to do it but we have arrived. Human rights were first set out as law in the United States 200 years ago. Of course they are still being amended, but one day we will be a little closer to getting it right than now.
_________________
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell |
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Sir Galahad
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 1938
Location: Avalon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: Moderanization: A western Dream and Ummah's Nightmare |
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Dear Humanist,
Most of Europe was converted to Christianity between 500 and 1000 CE and therefore on average the process took about a thousand years not 1800.
Charlemagne forced Christianity on the Saxons and other peoples in his empire during 8th century. Scandinavia was converted during the tenth century. The conversion of Iceland to Christianity was formalized at the Althing in the year 1000.
_________________
Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities, because it is the quality which guarantees all others. _Winston Churchill
Winter is Coming. - Motto of House Stark |
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pilgrim
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2054
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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The objective of this post is to jar Lilith within the shell of his internalized emotions.
| Quote: |
Lilith says:
"Feelings are not supposed to be logical. Dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions."
-David Borenstein, January 28, 2000
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Who the hell is Borenstein?
The above quote by Lilith is applicable within a narrow context. Attempting to apply it always is an indication of deficient logic.
The Western Liberal Left which has spawned children that gave the world:
The excesses of the French revolution
The Gas Chambers
The Gulags
All above were mass murderers, and destroyers of culture, heritage, and history.
All above were perpetrated by those who thought logically, and acted logically according to their own logic. Some even called it scientific dialectics.
So lilith, keep in mind above quote by your Borenstein as I go through the rest of your post.
Let us see where you fit in the scheme of logic and internalized emotions.
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| [quote="lilith"]We also blame muslims for not speaking up and your forgetting Matthew on picking up the sword etc. |
You are reciting an internalized emotional statement.
For you and your statement to be credible you need to provide evidence and make a comparison based the Gospel, Quran, The Constitution of the U.S., and the Manifestos of the mass murderers of the 20th century.
Evidence and comparison are fundamental to rule of law when someone lodges charges against a person or a document, or an instiitution.
You even failed to give the full quote from Mathew.
Dangerous is Lilith who internalizes emotions.
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| I read some Philo in connection with paul the zealot and Jezus the nazareen(also a zealot so to speak) |
Actually you are a zealot yourself. You fail to quote Mathew fully in reference to
| Quote: |
| Matthew on picking up the sword etc |
By the way what are Philo's credentials?
Is he some one you love to refer to because he reinforces your internalized emotions, and fail to provide evidence to corroborate your statements?
Have you read all the letters of Paul or are you relying on truncated quotes by others who hold a point of view that is different from Paul's, or maybe they have an axe to grind. There is nothing wrong in having different points of views. This is natural. Men have minds of their own and free will.
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| Christianity is what the church dishes. |
You are making a statement that is very inaccurate, and you are basing it on your internalized emotions. But let us go a long with your extremely inaccurate statement for the sake of the argument.
Christianity is what the church dishes.
U.S. civil society is what the congress and the Supreme Court dish out.
The Chinese system of laws is what the Communist party dishes out.
Islam is racked by chaos, turmoil, and violence because it does not have an authority to dish out what Islam is.
Fact is you dish out lots of internalized emotions.
[quote]And if we blame muslims who can also be enlighted than why not do the same with Christians[quote]
In order to blame some one, the blamer must present specific charges, and evidence to prove the charges. For example:
1- A charge of incitement to hate and violence is brought against the Gospel, Quran, the U.S. Constitution, and the Manifestos of the mass murderers of the 20th century (spun off the Western Liberal Left).
An investigation is conducted by impartial judges in accordance with established procedures.
A comparison is made of the scriptures and manifestos regarding issues that incite to hate and violence.
Unless you do that, your statement is internalization of emotions, and that is extremely dangerous.
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| I could never be willingly become part of a murdering sekt, be they christian, islam or kali or one of many different believesystems. |
You are going against your own principle which is quoted at the opening of this post. You have internalized your emotions which is extremely dangerous. You are spewing stale slogans of the Western Liberal Left that has given birth to mass murderers of the 20th century.
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| And it has always been beyond me that people could have that level of immorality even after being told these raw historic facts. |
Every thing is beyond your grasp you except your internalized emotions.
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| The church is the body of christ, so one is submitted to that. Read from Paul all the way to Augustine, and to me it's no different from mo's invention or the baghwan with 60 mercedesses. |
The Christian Church (the Universal and denominational) is the body of Christ.
You have chosen to belong to some other body.
Hell you are not different than Mo with your Quran like recitations and internalized emotions, and you do not have the charisma, of a baghwan to one used Mercedes, or maybe you do have or can afford a used Mercedes.
best regards |
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Humanist
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Moderanization: A western Dream and Ummah's Nightmare |
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| Sir Galahad wrote: |
Dear Humanist,
Most of Europe was converted to Christianity between 500 and 1000 CE and therefore on average the process took about a thousand years not 1800.
Charlemagne forced Christianity on the Saxons and other peoples in his empire during 8th century. Scandinavia was converted during the tenth century. The conversion of Iceland to Christianity was formalized at the Althing in the year 1000. |
Sir Galahad, you missed my point completely. I was talking about secular government. It started with the US adaption of the Constitution. Europe was Christian and most had Kings and Queens whose defense of their title was seen as originating with God, i.e. divine right to lead.
That ended with America.
_________________
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell |
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scaredguy
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Humanist
Secularism got a start in christian countries because the christian religion was most absurd and fullo of contradictions and the rulers misused it fully. The amount of blood-shed in the name of christianity crosed all human limits.
USA got a secular constitution because the various immigrants from Europe could not agree which christian sect should dominate.
Islam will not become secular in spite of its greater blood-shed and hypocrisy because islam is the most successful formula of fascism ever devised. No fascism is as tricky as islamic fascism. If I apply all my socio-political intelligence to devise a fascist ideology (something which I will never do) then I will come up with islam or an islam-like ideology. And 90% of mankind is too stupid to recognise that. (Don't ridicule me for having said that). |
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lilith
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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What is defense of christianity by the gospel other than internalised emotion and so called logic.
Most people will say that the bible is just fiction. That they however like the non-violence that Jezus purportedly spread and gloss over verses that are not so non-violent.
He even carries a sword himself! So a group of armed guys with purpose walks through town.
First impression: violent or not?
In hamurabi by the way a verse is mentioned on the slave and master in connection with chopping of ears. Gives a different perspective on this bibleverse.
http://www.unesco.org/delegates/iraq/hamurabi.htm
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282. If a slave say to his master: "You are not my master," if they convict him his master shall cut off his ear.
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You might indeed say that islam is a fascist ideology. (too many comparisons) but one cannot say that all muslims are thus convinced and living accordingly.
You might say that christianity in an Augustine format (total submission, do not think or have your own wil, the body of christ i.e. the church wil do the thinking for you, only when everybody lives thus then peace will be. That's were Mo got his inspiration.)is also a fascist ideology but not that all christians are thus convinced and living accordingly.
Christianity never got a thorough grip on europe.
JudaIsm has more in common with the old myths in Europe(the worldtree etc.).
To me christianity and islam are much closer than any of us is comfortable with.
Especially when I see arguments in defense of christianity that are exactly the same as arguments to defend islam.
That brought me on this course, by the way.
If people are not aware of this than what effect would their contribution be in fighting a suppressive ideology. If i were a convinced muslim I would be laughing heartily. And stating that God =Allah would be the next.
Why not.
The next links you can skip.
http://www.torreys.org/private/violence.html
http://www.drabruzzi.com/jesus_movement.htm
this is just a little introductory material.
It was under discussion what zealots really were. Some lonely people, groups etc. Exactly in what time were they active, what was their motivation, nationalistic, upholding jewish law a.s.o.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.v.ii.iv.html
Bit of church philosophy.
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/apocryph.htm
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They sternly insisted, that we ought not to search into the ulterior object and rationale of a law, but simply obey it. But it was this very rationale of the Law which the Alexandrians sought to find under its letter. It was in this sense that Aristobulus, a Hellenist Jew of Alexandria, [b About 160 B.C.] sought to explain Scripture. Only a fragment of his work, which seems to have been a Commentary on the Pentateuch, dedicated to King Ptolemy (Philometor), has been preserved to us (by Clement of Alexandria, and by Eusebius [a Praepar. Evang. vii. 14. 1 ; vii. 10. 1-17; xiii. 12.]). According to Clement of Alexandria, his aim was, 'to bring the Peripatetic philosophy out of the law of Moses, and out of the other prophets.'
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According to me, the gospels are an attempt at synthesis of different philosophies and beliefsystems.And as such the NT should be understood as a work of fiction with fictional characters.
When their fear (implied) subsides, they arrest Him (Mtw 26:50, Mark 14:46). The band of three disciples who’d been sleeping while Jesus was praying (Mtw 26:40) are probably behind him, rousing themselves from sleep at this point and, although the eight at the entrance to the Garden seem to realise what’s transpiring (Luke 22:49), Peter is the one who doesn’t wait for clear instruction and draws a sword, rushing towards the band of soldiers and officials and wounding the high priest’s slave, Malchus - whereupon Jesus heals the wound and orders Peter to desist (Mtw 26:50-54, Mark 14:46-47, Luke 22:49-51, John 18:10-11) even though the soldiers may have already come forward to attempt to remove Peter’s head from his shoulders.
For this reason, it appears, Jesus is bound (John 18:12, Luke 22:54 - placed here out of order to round off the passage and introduce the next scene) fearing that, if there had been an attempt at deliverance, there may be another in which a shackled prisoner would be easier to prevent fleeing.
and it’s difficult to take John’s words as implying anything less than this band of troops was a detachment sent from the Roman garrison itself. Even if we take John’s word employed as referring to a manipulus rather than a full cohort as Vines points out is possible (see above), at least two hundred men would still be implied.
http://www.arlev.clara.net/matt098.htm
Read the argument and all in all jezus is considered to be a very dangerous individual, consistent with a zealot anti-imperialist movement.
http://www.westmont.edu/~work/clutter/2002_10_01_archive.html
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/philosophia/alexandria.htm
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Philo uses what he calls ‘the method of the Mysteries’ to reveal Jewish scriptures as allegories encoding secret spiritual teachings. He interprets the ‘historical’ story of Moses and the Exodus as a mystical metaphor for the path that leads through this world to God. The guide on this journey is the familiar Pagan figure of the ‘Logos’. For Philo, as for the sages of the Mysteries, the Logos is ‘the only and beloved Son of God’.6
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Indeed, the earliest Christians (including Paul) paid no attention to any ‘historical’ Jesus; to them, he was a mystical, cosmic character, just like the god-men of other Mystery Religions. We shall now discuss evidence for proto-Christianity having been modelled upon these Pagan Mysteries.
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Alexandria’s Fall and the Dark Ages
The Church did not stop in simply suppressing a few texts and teachings. In its relentless campaign of eliminating evidence of Christianity’s true origins, by the early fifth century the Church was compelled to deal with the Jewish community in Alexandria. This community probably had a great deal of knowledge about the past activities of the Therapeutae; such knowledge was dangerous from the Church’s point-of-view. Therefore it is not surprising that the Church arranged for the entire Jewish community (40,000 persons) to be expelled from Alexandria in the year 412 CE.12 Around the same time, the Church (or forces acting in collusion with it) destroyed the Alexandrian Library and its vast collection of scrolls; doing so helped eliminate all written evidence of the origins of Christianity. Finally, the Church placed Pagan intellectuals on its ‘hit list’ – such persons had the necessary education to know about the real origins of Christianity, especially if they lived in Alexandria, and had frequented the great Library before its destruction. So in the year 415 CE, the Church incited or commissioned a mob of Christian monks to assassinate the great Pagan philosopher and scientist Hypatia of Alexandria, by hacking her to death with sharp potsherds, and burning the mutilated remains. Consequently, Alexandria, once the intellectual capital of the classical world, the shining jewel at the mouth of the Nile, had fallen from grace; the last remnants of the Roman Empire, already tottering, accompanied Alexandria’s downfall. As Carl Sagan writes: “It was as if an entire civilization had undergone some self-inflicted brain surgery, and most of its memories, discoveries, ideas and passions were extinguished irrevocably.”13
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Through its alliance with what was left of the State (headquartered in Constantinople), the Church was able to arrange to have thousands of “heretics” exiled, imprisoned or executed. Such heinous acts – crimes against humanity which still remain unpunished, the culprit organization still at large, and still (paradoxically) receiving the adoration of millions – helped European civilization collapse into the Dark Ages. In a sense, the much-touted ‘messiah’ had indeed come, although this was no ethereal, golden-haired child (as envisioned by Virgil and the Sibyl) bestowing wondrous blessings for the new Golden Age. Rather, those watching the whole tragedy unfold might have realised that something terrible had been born.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned ...
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?
—W. B. Yeats, from The Second Coming.
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You are right. It is vague! I have it from Furneaux's book, The Other Side of the Story, p 140 where it says:
A fragment of Josephus, surviving in Suidas (tenth century) says that Jesus officiated in the Sanctuary with the priests, and he may have done so in order to conform with the tradition that the Messiah would unite the priestly dignity with the kingly office. This is confirmed by a fragment of an unknown gospel describing the saviour and his disciples, "And he took them and led them into the Holy Place itself, and went about in the Sactuary.
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As Josephus stated a greek guy called jezus that was a charlatan.
There is extensive documentation on violations.
Wouldn't christians(or any other group) reason that that was the past or the church, the doctrine etc.or disgressing from what real faith is, but that nowadays christians cannot be held accountable for what happened in the past?
(I've got that thrown at me in discussions too. And the reason muslims will hold when addressed about athrocities.
That by the way makes pope John II a truly great man in taking responsibility.
Philo and his ideas on logos(holy spirit) is what christianity comes down to.(Who the hell is philo  )
If one would call a muslim a Mohammedan, then most will feel offended, but for this small group)OBL, Hamas etc.) that are emulating Mohammed.So on a different forum I reinstituted the term. Given that there is also a fatwah that states that they have to call themselves 'muslim' so as not to estrange ordinary muslims.
There is no ideology that works for all, so each believesystem will be a rationalization of emotions. For the greater good f.i.
By evolution people lived in small groups. A hundred to a thousand people. Even on instinct we will make right decisions. Beyond that number we loose our bearings and start being illogical and make wrong decisions. Or do not feel responsible. Religion appeals to the individual through faith and that is not logical but a feeling of belonging or even life and death believe (see Ali Sina on why religion taps in to this evolutionairy part of ourselves)
So I debate rationalizations and cannot make headway.
And than you are absolutely right in stating that the statement is appicable to me too.
Internalising emotions is not dangerous by the way, but rationalising is if the feeling had no logic in the first place.
But wherever you put internalised , i replaced it with rationalised. 
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The objective of this post is to jar Lilith within the shell of his internalized emotions.
Quote:
Lilith says:
"Feelings are not supposed to be logical. Dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions."
-David Borenstein, January 28, 2000
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or do you indeed consider internalised emotions dangerous Pilgrim.
joy, fear, hate, anger, sadness etc
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Emotion
Jezus is love.
satan is anger and hate
Religion tought us to attribute them somewhere outside ourselves and universaly. Not to take responsibility for them.
_________________
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean;
if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.
Where there is love there is life."
Mahatma Gandhi |
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lilith
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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1581 The dutch were not happy with protestants nor with kaholics and their respective wordly representation.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Oath%20of%20Abjuration
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In the Oath, the Staten-Generaal The Staten-Generaal (States-General) is the parliament of the Netherlands. It consists of two chambers, the most important of which is the Tweede Kamer (the Second Chamber or Lower House). The Eerste Kamer (the First Chamber or Upper House) is also known as the Senate. The meeting rooms of the Staten-Generaal are located at the Binnenhof (Inner Court), all in the Hague.
states that a king is a servant of his people and should respect their laws and traditions. When he no longer does this, the people have the right to choose another ruler.
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The Oath stood model for the American declaration of independence in 1776 and that of the Southern Netherlands in 1789/1790 (the United Belgian States).
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http://www.brysons.net/miltonweb/refoutline.html
http://flagspot.net/flags/nl-batav.html
liberty fiercely defended by a lion
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The Dutch waged a war for freedom of religion and economy with the Spaniards from 1568 till 1648, the 80-years war, that was ended at the Treaty of Munster in Westphalia.
The Spanish King needed a pause in the war very badly, as he was very unsuccessful, and there was an armistice for twelve years from 1609-1621.
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:-D
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To divert the attention of his people from the misfortune, he used that period to expel the Moriscoes, the christianised Muslims from Spain, so removing the last of the highly educated from his country. As the armistice was going to end in 1621, the Pilgrim Fathers feared that the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands could not withstand the Spanish fury, and feared that they also then would be persecuted by the Inquisition, and because of this fact they left the Netherlands. They had enjoyed freedom of religion in the Netherlands and could openly keep the Sabbath. Of course in the same period they also had contacts with the Sabbath keeping Dutchmen. And there has always been close ties with America and the Netherlands from those times on.
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So let's just take it that i come from a long tradition of fighting religion.
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Oldenbarnevelt held to the faith of Arminius, that also propagated that human dignity requires an unimpaired freedom of the will. In July 1617 Prince Maurice openly sided with the Gomarists or Calvinistic Contra-Remonstrants, as a veiled declaration of war on Oldenbarnevelt and the Holland regents' party. There had been a show process against Oldenbarnevelt at an extraordinary tribunal consisting of 24 judges, by no means all of whom were qualified lawyers, and not a few of whom, besides being political opponents, were also personally antagonistic to Oldenbarnevelt. He was condemned to death for "subversion" of the country's religion and policy. He was refused grace and was beheaded in May 1619 in The Hague at the age of 72.
This execution of a prominent very highly respected man for political reasons, however in a religious disguise, in which the freedom of worship was involved, must have scared the Pilgrim Fathers greatly. This event must have influenced their decision to leave the country, where they were at that time living in freedom, at their earliest convenience.
This black page in Dutch history was perhaps a trigger to uproot the Pilgrim Fathers in the Netherlands and bring them as the first Sabbath-keeping group to America.
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God may have created the world but the Dutch created Holland.
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The "Cruquius" is one of three steam-driven pumps that reclaimed the Haarlem lakes between 1849-1852 and created the Haarlem area "polders," the Dutch word for these lands reclaimed from the sea.
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When dikes broke in 1953 it was forbidden to preach: Let Gods waters flow over Gods lands.
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One model illustrates that as recently as February 1953 a combination of storms and spring tides broke the dikes in the southern part of the country, causing extensive flooding with consequent loss of life and property.
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_________________
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean;
if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.
Where there is love there is life."
Mahatma Gandhi |
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Humanist
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| scaredguy wrote: |
Dear Humanist
Secularism got a start in christian countries because the christian religion was most absurd and fullo of contradictions and the rulers misused it fully. The amount of blood-shed in the name of christianity crosed all human limits.
USA got a secular constitution because the various immigrants from Europe could not agree which christian sect should dominate.
Islam will not become secular in spite of its greater blood-shed and hypocrisy because islam is the most successful formula of fascism ever devised. No fascism is as tricky as islamic fascism. If I apply all my socio-political intelligence to devise a fascist ideology (something which I will never do) then I will come up with islam or an islam-like ideology. And 90% of mankind is too stupid to recognise that. (Don't ridicule me for having said that). |
The constitution of the United States not written by a Christian.
_________________
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell |
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scaredguy
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Humanist
You have not answered why your dear beloved Bush has not instituted a commission to expose the fact that the kuran is not compatible with the US constitution and shariah with US laws. That would have been a 10-ton punch at the right spot (instead of this 1000-ton punch in Irak). Such a commission would have cost hardly a 100 000 dollars. In stead of that he has helped increase the faked-up muslim feeling that they are the innocent victims (all martyrs) in a satanicl world controlled by the evil non-muslims.
May be you should become president of USA with me as your advisor? If you and Bush both got 96% marks then you are just as good, and with me as advisor you are far better. |
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