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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:12 am Post subject: The Revival of Islamic Madness |
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The Revival of Islamic Madness
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Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own.
Last edited by Ali Sina on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Humanist
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:27 am Post subject: Re: The Revival of Islamic Madness |
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Ali Sina, good article except ALL the problems cannot be laid at America's door.
One important and over riding point missing in your essay is that from 1947 to 1990 America was fighting Communism. Communism was the main threat to America and every move made by the American's has to be put in the light of how will this help defeat Communism.
Without the Red threat on the northern border of Iran the US would have had little interest in Iran outside of business in oil and other commercial ventures.
In 1953 the Islamist did not have nuclear weapons, but the Soviet Union had a bunch aimed at the United States. In 1953 the US was also involved in Korea where the Red menace had just cost the US 50,000 lives through their invasion of South Korea. The US was trying to form NATO and SEATO into viable entities to curb Communist expansion. The US was still trying to come up with the money to make Germany and Japan economically viable.
While the US is powerful one must remember that the US is only 5-6% of the World’s population and the US cannot be everything to all people. China and Russia are far more responsible for this current threat than the US. China and Russia were really good at mixing up the mud into the water and there was only one force to be used against them and that was the Western powers. So in the Cold War the US was trying everything in its power to counter the Communist. They became paranoid of anything associated with Communism and rightfully so. Wars are not nice and they always leave a bunch of problems in their wake.
To my knowledge the US has never had troops in Iran so during this salient time frame the only US element that could present any real threat to a change of government in Iran was the CIA. The CIA is a covert group that numbers in the hundreds. The CIA only operates successfully where the involved country has a large percentage of folks willing to buy into the CIA’s plan. How a hand full of men from the US can topple governments is still a mystery to me unless that government is so hated that large numbers in that country want a change in government.
So the US is responsible for todays terrorist movement and China and Russia are guilt free.
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"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell |
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crazy canuck
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 6391
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately America at that time had also a weak president in the person of Carter who did not realize what was at stake and did not respond. This was the time that America had to protect the Shah. Had Carter done that, he would have nipped in the bud the Islamic revival and we would not be in this mess today. A few hundred hardliners had to be sacrificed to salvage Iran and the world. America has to be strong or the world will become a chaos. I would have preferred we had a world Federal Government to assure all |
How America could have protected Shah or propped him up? By sending troops and attacking those millions of demonstrators? There was ground swell of protsts against Shah, daily there was firing on demonstrations. If Carter had sent troops and attacked and killed Iranian, people like you would have shouted. DEATH TO CARTER. Shah left Iran because there was a mutiny among the rank and file in the army.All Iranians, left, right, and center wanted Shah out at any cost, come what may.If Shah had fought to last loyal troop, at the end, him and his family would have been butchered like Czar of Russia.
How come all progressive forces in Iran did not unite against Mullahs and fought out bloody battle against Khomini?Majority of Iranians supported Khomini, now people are disillusioned, life became miserable and who is villian? foreignrs and U.S. Well typical Middle East mindset. Its not the fault of U.S. but typical religio-political situation of Iran. In any Muslim majority country its either monarchy, dictatorship or clergy.Exception was Turkey, but that was also by force it became secular. We have examples of Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh, Algeria, Morocco,and many others where either military-ologarchy or monarchy rules and democracy is just name sake.
Nothing new about land reform. Many third world countries implemented land reforms to their advantage and prospered. U.S. had lots of industrial jobs in last century.No pressing need for land reform. They had homestead programs for poor whites and European immigrants.I admit it did not help black slaves. Again it was bad luck or typical corrupt system which failed Iran in implementing land reform.
Every country in the world has to go through urban ills of Indusrialization. Same thing like poverty, crime, hunger, unemployment, poor health standard etc happened in US and Britain in 19th century, and still happens in third world country like India and others. But Iran had Islamic solution to the problem. Again I dont fault U.S.
I will blame Islamic mindset of people for all these failures you mentioned. For all these Islam dominated countries, natural resources is often a curse. |
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shima
Joined: 29 May 2004
Posts: 2795
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| Islam is a sick ideology of terror and it has been so since its inception. However until the nineteen sixties it was contained and was not a threat to the world |
Islam has never been contained the way it should have.
It has always been a threat to humanity and the world.
Muslims were main allies of Nazis and commited massacres by millions.
What gave rise to islam was oil money, and the assumption of the rest of the world that it's just another religion.
Why the hell the ignorant and poor masses of Iran resorted to violence and plunder of others instead of simply building the roads and machines that they needed?
Did you know that 100s of thousands died in America just making the roads, most of them only had a bowl of soup for food as wages, they slept at the job site, but they had a big dream.
America doesn't stand alone on that. All secular nations did that.
Europe built itself up after burying 150 million war casualties and rose tall stronger than before.
A bunch of islamist peasants staying poor because of their ignorance and old destructive arabic imperialism imposed on their few brain cells which they value the most were no concern of the grown up world.
It's the hateful islamic mentality that blames the whole world, everybody and everything except themselves for their failures.
Getting rid of shah, killing the Jews, and destroying America is much more important to islamists than anything else.
Islamists are hate driven thugs, they are not productive people. The world can do without them.
Even if we educate an islamized worthless mind it only becomes an educated islamized worthless mind, still hate driven on world domination and killing of all Jews, Christians and Hindus
Iran is not an innocent case of mistakes and miscalculations, Iran is a very dangerous fascism in the making ready for a dirty war.
Iran is not what Persians used to be, it's just another pawn on the chess board of arab islamists, a pawn in a very dangerous position.
Iranians are their worst enemy, islam is not only destructive to others, it is equally self destructive.
The path islamists take, from every detail of daily affairs down to the political practices is just a straight path to hell and destruction. Only Satan himself could have come up with a system such as "submission."
The Brits might have taken some oil but they left an entire modern city built when they left.
The islamist arabs took Iran's dignity, culture, names, women, language and land, islamists didn't give one single good thing, not one. Only a promise of eternal hard on in heavens, yeah right.
Islam has been/is a disaster and human tragedy worse than any ideology ever.
Old American leaders weren't the only ones who overlooked dangers of islam, the whole world did.
Modern American and British leaders are the only ones who are fighting against it now.
Very soon Russia, India and the rest of Europe will join in too.
But this time the freed muslims better show some appreciation and dignity. Because this war could become a nuclear war in a snap, thanks to ignorant lazy peasants who are now mullahs thugs getting trained to deliver the nukes in a terrorist attack.
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Islam is the only left over of barbarism on the planet. |
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rainbow
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 2339
Location: GOD IS TINY!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Wouldn't you say that Islam was always a potential problem, but it was kept in 'remission' until there was a proliferation of translated Islamic doctrine, coupled with access to translated Korans and their preaching of racism and hatred, increasing literacy, (but low critical thinking skills), TOGETHER with easy access to highly advanced weapons and technology that is getting cheaper by the minute?
I mean, how long can the details of the Koran and Islamic doctrine be kept under covers no matter what the US, UK, Russia or the Shah does?
Rainbow |
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Frodo Baggins
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Posts: 3172
Location: Dar ul-Bacon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:35 am Post subject: |
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I was slightly disappointed with this one, Ali. I believe you focus too much on the USA and Iran. Many observers trace the beginning of the modern Islamic revival in the Arab world to the crushing Arab defeat against Israel in the 6 Day War in 1967. This was by many seen as a defeat of the "Arab Socialism" and "Arab Nationalism" led by Egypt's Nasser, and left an ideological vacuum that was to be filled by Islamism. The "foreign" ideologies of Capitalism and Socialism had been tried, and failed. Now was the time to return to "their own" culture.
Not few of the later Islamists were Marxists, and former Arab Socialists and Nationalists. I agree that the first major manifestation of the Islamic revival was in Iran in 1979, but the movement was already underway in the Arab world before this. I know there is an Iranian nationalist buried underneath your skin somewhere, which is ok. Iran is a great nation, and definitely an important piece in the history of Political Islam, but we should guard ourselves from Iranocentrism just like any other centrism. 
Also, we should not forget modern European appeasement of the Arab world, particularly from the Oil crisis in 1973 and until the present day. Read up on Bat Ye'Or's upcoming book "Eurabia" on this. The sudden influx of petrodollars, which made the Saudis very wealthy, triggered the funding of Islamic radicals all over the world. This was also before the Iranian Revolution, and not directly related to it.
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Do you know of any good links about Islam? Suggest them to me for the Internet Toolbox for Islam-critics, and inform me about links not working. |
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DeDanaan
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 180
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Under this land reform that he dubbed “White Revolution”, Shah took lands from the landlords and gave them to the villagers who used to work on them. This was communism. |
No. This was land reform, something most third-world countries are in dire need of since the trickle-down effect of economic growth assumes a monetarized ecomony and a well-functioning infrastructure as well as social mobility. None of which are prevalent in third-world countries nor in Iran at the time. The key to development in many areas is ownership of the your own land where you can work and sell the produce you own.
Ali, you should stick to what you know and not use the Americans' naive and knee-jerk hate-reaction to the word communism to lace your articles. Most have absolutely no idea what communism is, only that is apparently is evil and hateful and godless and a whole bunch of stuff.
The problems islam presents are wildly sufficient to get a reaction out of people and it shouldn't be necessary to use concepts which you quite obviously do not understand the workings of. Land reform is not communism, plain and simple. Land refrom (violent or otherwise) might have been used as an element in communism, but using such logic would mean that propaganda would be equal to facism, for instance, which simply isn't true. Western democracies use propaganda as well and to just as much effect, if not greater.
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Reading computer manuals without the hardware is as frustrating as reading sex manuals without the software.
Arthur C. Clarke's 69th Law |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Many observers trace the beginning of the modern Islamic revival in the Arab world to the crushing Arab defeat against Israel in the 6 Day War in 1967. |
In 1967 war the Muslims were defeated. Defeat demoralizes them and dampens their enthusiasm. In 1979 Iran they succeeded; success energizes them. So although their grievance and pretext is Palestine, their real inspiration to use Islam as a political tool is the memory of their sweet success of the Islamic Revolution. It worked once and hence it must work again. In Islamic Revolution, the Islamic terrorists have a tested and proven pattern of success.
What would dampen their zest; is more defeats like the one in 1967.
This has nothing to do with my nationalistic sentiment. Had the Islamists succeeded in any other country beside Iran, you would have seen the same Isamic revivalism.
Muslims should not win at any cost. Any victory, no matter how trivial it may be, even the perceived and fictitious victories, add to their resolve and makes them hardened fanatics. As I keep repeating, Islam only grows on hypes. Muslims are triumphalists. They interpret success as the assistance from Allah and add to their zealotry.
I invite the “many observers” to also take into consideration the Muslims psyche and idiosyncrasy.
The surge in Islamic terrorism is due to its success in Iran and not to its defeat in Palestine.
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Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
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zer0degrees
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 1392
Location: Cosmic Castaway
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| No matter who was at fault, for now the whole world needs to come together. No one country can combat this menace, and I doubt that all the countries will come together until the threat is so large that even the blind are forced to see it. WW3.... perhaps not, but something pretty darn close. (Of course if Iran manages to get the nuke then WW3 it is) |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| doubt that all the countries will come together until the threat is so large that even the blind are forced to see it. |
Just heard in CNN that Russia requested Israel to help with her fight against terrorism. For Russia to want to associate with Israel it took a disaster like the one she experienced last week.
Something good is finally comming out of all these bad news. Old rivals are realizing they have a common enemy and they have to stick together if they want to defeat it.
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own.
Last edited by Ali Sina on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rainbow
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 2339
Location: GOD IS TINY!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Interesting how we all have various views on this matter. Here's another one :-)
There was a buddhist teacher I heard say that Neitzche's; 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely' is wrong ... it's whatever happens when seeds that lie dormant which are given power - only then can you see if the seed is evil or good. Someone without a gun remains good, but give them a gun and power and see if they remain good .... or turn evil. Islam has been given a gun, and look what is happening. |
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Sehar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Dear Ali Sina,
Revivalism is an absurdity and a fraud. It sole purpose is to try to keep alive the dying religion and avert the attentions of people from the present age of progress and peace towards the backwardness and rigidity. Indeed Iranian clergies are the real founder of the terrorist activates. Not only Iran, all countries that have keen to hold supremacy of Religion over science and secular systems are the Axis of evil. |
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Communist
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 67
Location: Our common earth
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks to Ali Sina for an interesting article. I feel however, that the hub of the islamofacist network is not Iran but Saudi Arabia. Both the original Wahabi movement and Al Queida are of Saudi origin, and Saudi Arabia is the truly fundamentalist state, with no formal constitution apart from the quran. Also, the holy places are in Saudi, which is essential to the fundamentalist psyche.
Look also at the internal workings of the Saudi economy. Saudi Arabia is the world's biggest oil exporter and one of the world's richest countries. Yet Saudi Arabia is at the same time a developing country with analphabetism, ignorance, a stifeling povetry of ideas and an ossified academic life.
Think of it this way:
If the regime of Iran fell, the Saudi leadership would probably continue for at least a little while. If on the other hand Saudi fell, then the mullah regime in Teheran would fall immediately.
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Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people - Karl Marx |
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shima
Joined: 29 May 2004
Posts: 2795
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Islam really was doomed since the day muhammad started his caravan raiding business.
Since that day every where muslims set their foot, there has been wars, massacres, destruction, dictatorships and hate.
Many great and smaller civilization has been destroyed by islam.
It is massacres by Sudanese, it was Iran's devolution, it was Israel's freedom, it was massacres by ottomans , it was massacres by Pakistanis , It was massacres by Algerian, It was massacres by Indonesian... as we go back in time, there has been bloody fascistic war crimes committed by islamists all the way down to muhammad himself. Non has been a righteous war, none. None has achieved anything but total destruction and misery. Except for a few mullahs and sheiks.
Islam was there destroying civilization after civilization long before America was established.
Islam can turn any nation into monsters, Ottomans, Chechens, Pakistanis, Afghans, Indonesians, Sudanese, Persians, Egyptians, and on top of them arabs who follow their tribal culture under mohammedanism with great pride and zeal to the point where at year 2004 it's forbidden for any foreigner to even set foot on their god damned satanic lands. And every slaved nation is approving them by sending their kids to die in acts of massacring women and children all over the world.
There was no victory in Iran, it was Iran's end.
Muslims celebrate death by virtue. Islam is the cult of death. Even the living turn into zombies, the only livelihood we see in islam is when they dance after massacres with their satanic chants of praising arabic lunatic god.
Islam is more concerned with destroying what's left of humanity than anything else.
Mullahs are the main descendants of muhhamad and carriers of the islamic plaque.
The day that the world realizes this and marches towards total destruction of this sub animal mullah breed, will be the day that the last left over of barbarism will be wiped out.
Only then we can have friendly talks with the deceived muslims and help them with their recovery into the fold of humanity.
And Ali is very right here. This should start in Iran, and America is the key. The only element missing is the global support.
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Islam is the only left over of barbarism on the planet. |
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Frodo Baggins
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Posts: 3172
Location: Dar ul-Bacon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Ali Sina wrote: |
| In 1967 war the Muslims were defeated. Defeat demoralizes them and dampens their enthusiasm. In 1979 Iran they succeeded; success energizes them. |
Well, yes. But many Arabs came to see this defeat as the result of relying on imported Western ideologies, like Nationalism and Socialism, or even Capitalism. Muslims were defeated because they had strayed away from Islam. Only by returning to Islam, and rejecting the foreign corrupt ideologies, be it Socialism or liberal democracy, could Arabs and Muslims again be strong. This sentiment came at the same time as the sudden influx of petrodollar wealth in the 1970s. Together, these two impulses fueled the Islamist revival we are witnessing now.
But yes, the Islamic takeover in Iran did inspire many Islamists, also among Sunnis. No disagreement there.
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Do you know of any good links about Islam? Suggest them to me for the Internet Toolbox for Islam-critics, and inform me about links not working. |
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