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Jonas
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
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 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Vernon,
Just to clarify, I didn't write those remarks about American Indians. My friend, Runaway, did.  |
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Vernon
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 549
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonas wrote: |
Vernon,
Just to clarify, I didn't write those remarks about American Indians. My friend, Runaway, did. |
My apology, sir, my apology! I don't know which emoticon is supposed to show being embarrassed, but consider one here X!
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Vernon
מחר בירושלים
إن اليسوع لورد. |
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nomad
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 6320
Location: Allahpalooza
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonas wrote: |
Below is Runaway's response. Any and all input welcomed. ---Jonas
Now, if both their God, and their number one prophet are illegitimate, how do we recognize any marriage sanctified by Islam as legitimate? |
You should point out that the label pedophilia is not an issue of law. The word is meant to categorize a certain type of relationship. It is society that determine what is 'legitimate' or not.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-01-01-saudi-polygamy_x.htm
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Saleh al-Sayeri, a 64-year-old shepherd-turned-businessman, says his marital adventures have cost him more than $1.6 million in wedding expenses and settlements for divorced wives. But the man who remembers being forced into his first marriage at age 14 says he'd do it a million times over.
His latest marriage — and at 10,000 guests his most sumptuous — was to a 14-year-old girl nine months ago. She was the perfect age, he said. |
Saudi laws says his marriages are legitimate, therefore his children from his marriages are not bastards. But the real issue behind the pedophilia charge against Muhammad is moral, not legal, as the example above demonstrated.
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"We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this fatwah," Osama bin Laden 1998
"I consider every American my enemy." Zacarias Moussaoui 2006 |
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Jonas
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad wrote: |
| Jonas wrote: |
Below is Runaway's response. Any and all input welcomed. ---Jonas
Now, if both their God, and their number one prophet are illegitimate, how do we recognize any marriage sanctified by Islam as legitimate? |
You should point out that the label pedophilia is not an issue of law. The word is meant to categorize a certain type of relationship. It is society that determine what is 'legitimate' or not.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-01-01-saudi-polygamy_x.htm
| Quote: |
Saleh al-Sayeri, a 64-year-old shepherd-turned-businessman, says his marital adventures have cost him more than $1.6 million in wedding expenses and settlements for divorced wives. But the man who remembers being forced into his first marriage at age 14 says he'd do it a million times over.
His latest marriage — and at 10,000 guests his most sumptuous — was to a 14-year-old girl nine months ago. She was the perfect age, he said. |
Saudi laws says his marriages are legitimate, therefore his children from his marriages are not bastards. But the real issue behind the pedophilia charge against Muhammad is moral, not legal, as the example above demonstrated. |
I believe Runaway and others are saying that whatever type of marriages are permissible under Islam in a Muslim country, that it also is accepted by society and it's laws. Therefore, outsiders like westerners should not judge them because we have no moral high ground given our past (crusades, inquisitions, etc.) |
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nomad
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 6320
Location: Allahpalooza
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonas wrote: |
| I believe Runaway and others are saying that whatever type of marriages are permissible under Islam in a Muslim country, that it also is accepted by society and it's laws. Therefore, outsiders like westerners should not judge them because we have no moral high ground given our past (crusades, inquisitions, etc.) |
Do you remember when the muslims criticize US for creating the interim governments of Afghanistan and Iraq because those temporary governments, in their opinions, were not 'democratic'? That was ironic coming from dictatorships. That is the true intent of the 'moral high ground' argument where one's CURRENT practice does not correlate with the crux of the criticisms directed at others. We have changed since the days of the Inquisition, slavery, racism, etc...etc...Our current ways of life are not perfect but in comparison to how muslims live their society, we may as well be perfect. Do you see our women rushing out to buy burkas? Given the Inquisition, may be we should stop criticizing the practice of female genital mutilation. The fact is that the feelings of outrage, revulsion and of avoidance are in and by themselves moral judgements of what we see. Their interpretation of the 'moral high ground' argument is nothing but intellectual and moral cowardice.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
_________________
"We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this fatwah," Osama bin Laden 1998
"I consider every American my enemy." Zacarias Moussaoui 2006 |
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Jonas
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| nomad wrote: |
| Jonas wrote: |
| I believe Runaway and others are saying that whatever type of marriages are permissible under Islam in a Muslim country, that it also is accepted by society and it's laws. Therefore, outsiders like westerners should not judge them because we have no moral high ground given our past (crusades, inquisitions, etc.) |
Do you remember when the muslims criticize US for creating the interim governments of Afghanistan and Iraq because those temporary governments, in their opinions, were not 'democratic'? That was ironic coming from dictatorships. That is the true intent of the 'moral high ground' argument where one's CURRENT practice does not correlate with the crux of the criticisms directed at others. We have changed since the days of the Inquisition, slavery, racism, etc...etc...Our current ways of life are not perfect but in comparison to how muslims live their society, we may as well be perfect. Do you see our women rushing out to buy burkas? Given the Inquisition, may be we should stop criticizing the practice of female genital mutilation. The fact is that the feelings of outrage, revulsion and of avoidance are in and by themselves moral judgements of what we see. Their interpretation of the 'moral high ground' argument is nothing but intellectual and moral cowardice.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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I'm with you on this. Some people are way too sensitive, others not sensitive, and still others unwilling to face the hard, cold facts. Cultural relativism, moral relativism, you name it, we have it. If westerners aren't even on the same page, then civilization as we know it is doom. Runaway has said that if the knowledgeable people here would care to post their views on this subject in accordance with the board rules, then he would be more than willing to listen. I've never been a muslim, am not well read on this religion, so even if I take what I learn from this site and relay it to others, it wouldn't carry as much weight. I have some counter view points for the recent posts on my board, but I've lost interest in it. I don't like to be politically correct, and I refuse to do so. Rather than put on ballet shoes so I can tip toe around sensitive subjects so as to not offend others, I'll take my arguments elsewhere. Every other religion can take criticisms; why can't Islam.... |
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wachamalit
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 3319
Location: Atheist corner.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Cultural relativism.
I hail from a religion that says pedophillia is okay. I can therefore freely have sex with children. I don't really care that the children are in fact not ready for sex. My culture says it's okay, so IT'S OKAY NO MATTER WHAT!
Opps, that was Islam. I forgot.
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Out of ideas for a new, witty signature. May add one later, but maybe not since I am too lazy. |
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Ansar al-Zindiqi
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 1268
Location: Undisclosed due to the Flood
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:52 am Post subject: |
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The issue of moral relativism is a two-edged sword. I have yet to come across anything in the anthropological literature that parallels ol' Mo's behaviors in any other culture at any time or any place. If you explore here more you'll see that the pedophile issue cuts through much of the debates. Just look at my current signature. I have known about Islam for a long time now and aways felt something was wrong.
There are the committed believers and then there are "nominal Muslims". We've had loads of fun with them and will continue to. Most "nominal Muslims" aren't really observant nor knowledgable about their own religion. As a matter of fact I don't see it as a religion but as an ideology. Many (not all) of the committed jihadi type Muslims don't care about the morality of Ol' Mo's pedophilia. Many Muslims don't object to the issue at all but instead object to the fact that the issue is pointed out by apostates and infidels. Yes, that's right. Pedophilia makes no odds to them and many of these same people will use cultural relativism as a crutch.
Some people will hold onto the cultural relativism stance but it has become rather weak with the issue of Islam. I've had too many experiences with Muslims and they are in trouble and their ideology is the biggest threat to the world. Even more than Nazi Germany. That's not extreme except to those who have kept themselves liking the candy-coated version of Islam and don't want to know the Awful Truth.
It's been close to 5 years since 9-11 and many leftists refuse to face up to it. Just read and listen to the likes of Noam Chomsky for example. Being shouted down and seeing former friends in the activist Left become Jew-haters after hanging out with Muslims is a horrible experience. I've been snitched out by people such these and so I am an apostate of the Left or a heretic if you will. I had to undergo a period of loneliness about the issue but I knew I was right. I personally challenged Noam Chomsky, Michael Albert and others at zmag.org to a debate. No one answered. I wonder why. So there you have it. Mark my words...this will kill the Left.
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Don't be a believer, but a heretic unto your own.
Last edited by Ansar al-Zindiqi on Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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LoveChild
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 290
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: Re: Let's clear up all this pedophilia garbage... |
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| umma_allergic wrote: |
(...)We have to remember that, though Mohammed had many wives, his child-bride was his favorite. That is an important point to emphasize. Also, he described an erotic interest in children that was not entirely genitally organized. He described a joy in playing with children that we all experience with kids, but for some reason he saw this as particularly delightful with kids one was married to, rather than the parent of...
(...)Mohammed thought that marrying very young girls to "play with" them was an appropriate impulse for an adult male to have. This is very reminiscent of Michael Jackson's desires to be around young people. He also said he was just "playing with them", and that it was all innocent delight. Mohammed seems to have shared something like this urge, and he seems to have been surprised that his followers in general did not feel the same way. Other adult males of Mohammed's time (at least a few of them) do not seem to think that it was normal or "proper" to seek out such young brides in this manner.
(...)Mohammed sees a baby crawl, and he feels some kind of impulse which makes him dream of marriage to that baby.
Mohammed prefers children who have not yet had adult experiences. He finds their innocence erotically relevant - their innocence makes up part of his interest in them as erotically beautiful creatures. This is a feature of pedophilic attraction.
Age is included on his list of erotic attributes. It is clearly an erotic category for him.
The virgins whose skin is so pure and transparent their bones can be seen... that is a somewhat bizarre fetishization of children's skin.
(...) |
This is really a great analysis, umma_alergic, I am very impressed by your ability to make observations and draw conclusions, and your hard work of course. 
I am wondering whether Mohammed's advice that women should shave off their pubic hair for their husbands, can also be a sign of paedophilic traits? |
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Nicolei
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 1064
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Ahh the magic number nine -
Pakistani police rescue bride aged 9 wed to pay debt
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2006/June/subcontinent_June1081.xml§ion=subcontinent
(Reuters)
30 June 2006
KARACHI - Police in Pakistan’s southern Sindh province have rescued a nine-year-old girl who was married off by her father to clear a debt for 400 kg (880 lb) of rice.
Both the father, Jan Mohammad, and her husband of four days, Abdul Sattar, a man of around 60, have been arrested and will appear in court on Saturday, a senior officer said.
“The marriage has taken place but the girl is underage,” police officer Masroor Ahmed Jatoi in Jacobabad district, 480 Km (300 miles) north of Karachi, told Reuters on Friday.
“She was given as compensation by her father, so we are treating it as a criminal case,” said Jatoi.
The girl, Wahida, has been sent for medical examination, and would be transferred to a care centre until a court decides where she will be best looked after.
Her father had stood as guarantor for a friend who bought the rice on credit, but when the debt put at 50,000 rupees ($833) was not paid, the trader demanded that Mohammad give his daughter in marriage to his elder brother as compensation, Jatoi said.
Human rights activist and lawyer Rashid Rehman said the law bars marriages of girls under 14 and boys under 16.
“The law has defined the ages clearly. There is also a law that prevents children and women from being given in any form of compensation to settle a dispute or blood feud,” Rehman said, adding that the court could declare the marriage void.
The government says it promotes the rights of women, but it is still common in rural areas, where feudal and tribal ways hold sway, for girls to be given as compensation to settle disputes.
Earlier this week, Pakistan’s Supreme Court stopped five minor girls from being handed over as compensation in a double murder case and ordered the police to conduct an inquiry.
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The truth will set you free |
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chingachgook
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3101
Location: Land of Twilight Zone
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Nicolei wrote: |
Ahh the magic number nine -
Pakistani police rescue bride aged 9 wed to pay debt
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2006/June/subcontinent_June1081.xml§ion=subcontinent
(Reuters)
30 June 2006
KARACHI - Police in Pakistan’s southern Sindh province have rescued a nine-year-old girl who was married off by her father to clear a debt for 400 kg (880 lb) of rice.
Both the father, Jan Mohammad, and her husband of four days, Abdul Sattar, a man of around 60, have been arrested and will appear in court on Saturday, a senior officer said.
“The marriage has taken place but the girl is underage,” police officer Masroor Ahmed Jatoi in Jacobabad district, 480 Km (300 miles) north of Karachi, told Reuters on Friday.
“She was given as compensation by her father, so we are treating it as a criminal case,” said Jatoi.
The girl, Wahida, has been sent for medical examination, and would be transferred to a care centre until a court decides where she will be best looked after.
Her father had stood as guarantor for a friend who bought the rice on credit, but when the debt put at 50,000 rupees ($833) was not paid, the trader demanded that Mohammad give his daughter in marriage to his elder brother as compensation, Jatoi said.
Human rights activist and lawyer Rashid Rehman said the law bars marriages of girls under 14 and boys under 16.
“The law has defined the ages clearly. There is also a law that prevents children and women from being given in any form of compensation to settle a dispute or blood feud,” Rehman said, adding that the court could declare the marriage void.
The government says it promotes the rights of women, but it is still common in rural areas, where feudal and tribal ways hold sway, for girls to be given as compensation to settle disputes.
Earlier this week, Pakistan’s Supreme Court stopped five minor girls from being handed over as compensation in a double murder case and ordered the police to conduct an inquiry. |
This is really an insult of the highest order to Islam! The police have blasphemed the holy Profit! They should be hanged to death! The old man was trying his best to emulate his Profit's Sunnah and now his dream has been shattered! Poor him!
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When Muslims DON'T follow Islam they are holy. When Christians DON'T follow Christ's they are not holy (chingachgook)
 </islam> |
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kenner
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 762
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: |
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The initial post is talking about a definition of pedophilia that is used in psychiatry. To argue that this is the only way in which the word is or can be understood is plain wrong.
Psychiatry is a fairly recent innovation, historically speaking, and psychiatry did not coin the word pedophilia, the ancient Greeks did that.
The word pedophilia, meaning an adult engaging in sexual activity with a child or children (or the mere fantasy of it), exists independently of psychiatric diagnostic criteria.
IMO, anyone who fails to condemn pedophilia (non-psych definition above) on the ground that it is a "cultural practice", is guilty of intellectual moral and ethical failure -- the damage caused by pedophilia is too well documented.
IMO, anyone who argues that a marriage ceremony makes a difference, is guilty of the same string of failures.
As some have pointed out, a problem for Islam is that it holds up as an example for all mankind, a man who was, by definition, a pedophile. And, more than that, holds up as worthy of worship, a god who endorsed pedophilia.
The bottom line question is: why should I follow a man, or bow to a god, who is intellectually morally and ethically inferior to every ordinary human being that I know? |
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Ansar al-Zindiqi
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 1268
Location: Undisclosed due to the Flood
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| kenner wrote: |
The initial post is talking about a definition of pedophilia that is used in psychiatry. To argue that this is the only way in which the word is or can be understood is plain wrong.
Psychiatry is a fairly recent innovation, historically speaking, and psychiatry did not coin the word pedophilia, the ancient Greeks did that.
The word pedophilia, meaning an adult engaging in sexual activity with a child or children (or the mere fantasy of it), exists independently of psychiatric diagnostic criteria.
IMO, anyone who fails to condemn pedophilia (non-psych definition above) on the ground that it is a "cultural practice", is guilty of intellectual moral and ethical failure -- the damage caused by pedophilia is too well documented.
IMO, anyone who argues that a marriage ceremony makes a difference, is guilty of the same string of failures.
As some have pointed out, a problem for Islam is that it holds up as an example for all mankind, a man who was, by definition, a pedophile. And, more than that, holds up as worthy of worship, a god who endorsed pedophilia.
The bottom line question is: why should I follow a man, or bow to a god, who is intellectually morally and ethically inferior to every ordinary human being that I know? |
My thoughts exactly.
_________________
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Don't be a believer, but a heretic unto your own.
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