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miss ruby
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 6411
Location: Britain
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 Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| doubtless wrote: |
| miss ruby wrote: |
Humandecency wrote:
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| You have to show that Mahommit was innocent of the charges. |
The Muslims have to accept everything that mohammed did,because he was the chosen one and was acting on the commands of Allah. Gibreel was the "middle man", he should be asked these questions. |
What do you mean, miss ruby? I do not understand. |
"Revelations" through Gibreel from Allah? |
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sahara
Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 12461
Location: Banned
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Recovering Leftist wrote: |
ia786,
almost everything your saying is simply mush and of zero functional use.
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The facts are given over and over, yet never accepted.
I have always accepted when I am at the losing end of a debate. Or a discussion, I would then seek to increase my knowledge. I would not go off believing that somehow my faith alone made me the winner. |
When? It may have happened here but I don't recall such a scenario. In fact, you always resort to your faith in and of itself making you the winner. Your entire worldview and ideology are predicated upon this. For insatnce, when your comments of conduct standards for muslims are applied to mo he does not measure up to the standards as you present them to us. Your response, and virtually every muslim I have met, is that mo gets exemption because god ordered him to do such. This is the definition of reducing your position to a "faith makes right" one.
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Just to let you know that it was me who said that not ia786. 
That's what I see when muslims debate, I was showing ia786 that I personally don't understand why muslims need to resort to such tactics, as I would make an effort to learn more and I would easily admit if I was losing a debate.
In fact I always know I am losing a debate when I start swearing and shouting. (what can I say, i still have some muslim in me  ) |
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doubtless
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I am sorry for being dense miss ruby but I still do not understand.
Muhammed was chosen by whom? By Allah you say. I assume the middle man was getting his messages from someone. If that someone was Allah then there is little reason for gibreel to distort the message. It that someone was Iblees then there is little reason to distort the message. Is gibreel iblees and delivering the his own message?
It is muhammed who interfaces with humanity and regardless whether he was fooled or not it is the message that has been disasterous for humanity, kaffirs and muslims alike. So it escapes me how muhammed can be let off the hook. As far as humanity is concerned, muhammed is the only real entity. Gibeel and Allah may very well be fictional.
If I am being stupid and you do not feel like answering, you do not have to reply. I can live not knowing.
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."
Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!" |
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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| doubtless wrote: |
| What do you mean, miss ruby? I do not understand |
I second that.
The more I think about the meaning, ruby, the more possibilities, and the more confusing.
Do you mean that Gibbershreal mucked it up?
Were the instructions from Allah "Do not bonk little girls" garbled by the "middle devil" when he forgot to mention the word "NOT"?
So what he said to Mahommit was "Do bonk little girs"?
In other words, do have to summon Gibberishreal to the dock to give evidence? Does this amount to the Nazis defense of "Just following orders from above" that the alleged prophet will argue?
_________________
The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
>>paradoxtoparadise]<<
>>> http://www.geocities.com/humandecency/first <<<
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Recovering Leftist
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 3872
Location: The Monroeville Mall
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| sahara wrote: |
| Recovering Leftist wrote: |
ia786,
almost everything your saying is simply mush and of zero functional use.
| Quote: |
The facts are given over and over, yet never accepted.
I have always accepted when I am at the losing end of a debate. Or a discussion, I would then seek to increase my knowledge. I would not go off believing that somehow my faith alone made me the winner. |
When? It may have happened here but I don't recall such a scenario. In fact, you always resort to your faith in and of itself making you the winner. Your entire worldview and ideology are predicated upon this. For insatnce, when your comments of conduct standards for muslims are applied to mo he does not measure up to the standards as you present them to us. Your response, and virtually every muslim I have met, is that mo gets exemption because god ordered him to do such. This is the definition of reducing your position to a "faith makes right" one.
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Just to let you know that it was me who said that not ia786.
That's what I see when muslims debate, I was showing ia786 that I personally don't understand why muslims need to resort to such tactics, as I would make an effort to learn more and I would easily admit if I was losing a debate.
In fact I always know I am losing a debate when I start swearing and shouting. (what can I say, i still have some muslim in me ) |
My bad. I apologize to ia786 for misquoting him in this instance.
It explains why I was so shocked to hear him make that claim though!
Hopefully ia786 will find the time to debunk some of the egregious inaccuracies we regurgitate and quit pi$$ing and moaning about partisanship.
Thx,
RL
_________________
"i hate the feelin' when you're looking at me
that way/ cause we're north americans/ but if we act all shy, it’ll make it ok/ makes it go away." ~ James Murphy |
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miss ruby
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 6411
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| doubtless wrote: |
I am sorry for being dense miss ruby but I still do not understand.
Muhammed was chosen by whom? By Allah you say. I assume the middle man was getting his messages from someone. If that someone was Allah then there is little reason for gibreel to distort the message. It that someone was Iblees then there is little reason to distort the message. Is gibreel iblees and delivering the his own message?
It is muhammed who interfaces with humanity and regardless whether he was fooled or not it is the message that has been disasterous for humanity, kaffirs and muslims alike. So it escapes me how muhammed can be let off the hook. As far as humanity is concerned, muhammed is the only real entity. Gibeel and Allah may very well be fictional.
If I am being stupid and you do not feel like answering, you do not have to reply. I can live not knowing. |
I was a muslim and all I am saying is that I believed that mohammed was righteous in ALL that he did, because the word came from God/Allah himself through Gibreel the Angel. So in mohammed's eyes if indeed he had the "revelations", he was doing God's will and saw nothing wrong in what he was doing. Even if he was to kill a jew that was heckling him or mocking him, he couldn't use force until the orders came from God. I did not suggest anything about Iblees, sorry if I gave you a wrong impression. |
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Recovering Leftist
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 3872
Location: The Monroeville Mall
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think its interesting.
Who was Gabriel? Could he have not been misrepresenting himself and/or the message, if you choose to accept that mo indeed had a revelation?
Maybe mo wasn't crazy or sick but just a sucker?
It is just another layer of difficulty for muslims to explain away. Boy, the muslim moon-god sure likes playing games with human souls.
_________________
"i hate the feelin' when you're looking at me
that way/ cause we're north americans/ but if we act all shy, it’ll make it ok/ makes it go away." ~ James Murphy |
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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| miss ruby wrote: |
| doubtless wrote: |
I am sorry for being dense miss ruby but I still do not understand.
Muhammed was chosen by whom? By Allah you say. I assume the middle man was getting his messages from someone. If that someone was Allah then there is little reason for gibreel to distort the message. It that someone was Iblees then there is little reason to distort the message. Is gibreel iblees and delivering the his own message?
It is muhammed who interfaces with humanity and regardless whether he was fooled or not it is the message that has been disasterous for humanity, kaffirs and muslims alike. So it escapes me how muhammed can be let off the hook. As far as humanity is concerned, muhammed is the only real entity. Gibeel and Allah may very well be fictional.
If I am being stupid and you do not feel like answering, you do not have to reply. I can live not knowing. |
I was a muslim and all I am saying is that I believed that mohammed was righteous in ALL that he did, because the word came from God/Allah himself through Gibreel the Angel. So in mohammed's eyes if indeed he had the "revelations", he was doing God's will and saw nothing wrong in what he was doing. Even if he was to kill a jew that was heckling him or mocking him, he couldn't use force until the orders came from God. I did not suggest anything about Iblees, sorry if I gave you a wrong impression. |
Have you noticed ruby, that there was always a convenient revelation whenever Mahommit needed one, like with the number of wives, or when he lusted after his adopted son's wife?
Or when he wanted to attack the Jews, he had a visit from Gibberishreel?
_________________
The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
>>paradoxtoparadise]<<
>>> http://www.geocities.com/humandecency/first <<<
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miss ruby
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 6411
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| humandecency wrote: |
| doubtless wrote: |
| What do you mean, miss ruby? I do not understand |
I second that.
The more I think about the meaning, ruby, the more possibilities, and the more confusing.
Do you mean that Gibbershreal mucked it up?
Were the instructions from Allah "Do not bonk little girls" garbled by the "middle devil" when he forgot to mention the word "NOT"?
So what he said to Mahommit was "Do bonk little girs"?
In other words, do have to summon Gibberishreal to the dock to give evidence? Does this amount to the Nazis defense of "Just following orders from above" that the alleged prophet will argue? |
Come to think of it now, I think I have hit something there of value. Bring Gibreel to the dock and let him answer for his mixed messages. I think it was satan in disguise.  |
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xyxx
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1142
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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To those who say the Quran and other Islamic scriptures are quoted out of context:
I don't think we can use verses like 9/5 etc to show Muslims can go killing for no reason. However, in my opinion, the Sharia and the dhimmi-status of non-Muslims can be perfectly justified with the Islamic scriputures. And it is still enough to reject Islam.
Or can you interpret the Sharia in a non-literal way? Do you think that an ideal Islamic society should implement Sharia law including punishment for adultery, apostasy and so on? |
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doubtless
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| miss ruby wrote: |
| doubtless wrote: |
I am sorry for being dense miss ruby but I still do not understand.
Muhammed was chosen by whom? By Allah you say. I assume the middle man was getting his messages from someone. If that someone was Allah then there is little reason for gibreel to distort the message. It that someone was Iblees then there is little reason to distort the message. Is gibreel iblees and delivering the his own message?
It is muhammed who interfaces with humanity and regardless whether he was fooled or not it is the message that has been disasterous for humanity, kaffirs and muslims alike. So it escapes me how muhammed can be let off the hook. As far as humanity is concerned, muhammed is the only real entity. Gibeel and Allah may very well be fictional.
If I am being stupid and you do not feel like answering, you do not have to reply. I can live not knowing. |
I was a muslim and all I am saying is that I believed that mohammed was righteous in ALL that he did, because the word came from God/Allah himself through Gibreel the Angel. So in mohammed's eyes if indeed he had the "revelations", he was doing God's will and saw nothing wrong in what he was doing. Even if he was to kill a jew that was heckling him or mocking him, he couldn't use force until the orders came from God. I did not suggest anything about Iblees, sorry if I gave you a wrong impression. |
That is correct. That is the logic that muslims do use without even thinking about it. Whatever muhammed did is by definition moral and righteous. When the actions bother them then there is always a very at times confusing explanation. The classic example of this is a 50+ year man marrying a six year old. Nearly all humans at present know that is not right. But muslims cannot say that, because if muhammed did it then allah must have wanted it and it must be moral and right by definition. Hence all kinds of reasons and explanations why that was necessary. When you are not a muslim, all the reasons given simply are mind blowing as you look at them in total disblief ... how can these people be accepting such nonsense. The same with Muhammed's marriage to his adopted son's wife. The pagans considered it evil. But because muhammed did it, it must be what allah wanted and hence it must be righteous. And again the kaffirs are left with jaws hanging, staring at the braindead muslims reciting these totally weird and incredible explanations.
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."
Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!" |
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Anna Doe
Joined: 25 Dec 2005
Posts: 2745
Location: Somewhere on the spheric kafir earth, vaccinating people against islam
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: in rememberance for Ayesha |
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I really enjoy this thread, all thanks to Miss Ruby!
_________________
Vaccinate yourself against islam: read the koran!
Orenda: islam orders women to hide themselves so rapists won't be tempted to harass them, it is as stupid as to ask colored people to hide themselves so racists won't be tempted to harass them |
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piggy
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 6372
Location: Godwana
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Recovering Leftist wrote: |
I think its interesting.
Who was Gabriel? Could he have not been misrepresenting himself and/or the message, if you choose to accept that mo indeed had a revelation?
Maybe mo wasn't crazy or sick but just a sucker?
It is just another layer of difficulty for muslims to explain away. Boy, the muslim moon-god sure likes playing games with human souls. |
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4703
e.g.
In ahadith there is mention of Gabriel as an angel and a man.
In this thread I will post relavent sahih hadiths.
This first hadith doesn't say this "Gabriel" is an "angel".
sahih al-Bukari
كتاب بدء الوحي (The Book of Revelation)
No. 5 - Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
Allah's Apostle was the most generous of all the people, and he used to reach the peak in generosity in the month of Ramadan when gabriel met him. gabriel used to meet him every night of Ramadan to teach him the Qur'an. Allah's Apostle was the most generous person, even more generous than the strong uncontrollable wind (in readiness and haste to do charitable deeds).
This next hadith, first mentions Gabriel and "the angel" is in parenthesis which may have been added by the translator.
Then it goes on to mention "that man" with "gabriel" in parenthesis.
Then it goes on with Mohammed describing the man as "Gabriel" with no mention of "angel".
Note also that this "man", "angel" was visible to the rest of the crowd, as Mohammed asked his companions to call him back.
I get the impression that Mohammed had a man-friend who he passed-off to the crowd as Gabriel, the angel, at times that suited him, this man Gabriel being fully aware of Mohammed's superstitious nature (illness) was a strong influence on, and manipulator of Mohammed, inventing "revelations" and feeding Mohammed with ideas, even to the extent that he manufactured "revelations" for Mohammed who would claim he had revealed by the angel in times of solitude.
كتاب الإيمان (The Book of Faith)
No. 47 - Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.
1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith. |
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Taqqiya Tactician
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 3925
Location: The abattoir
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Have you noticed ruby, that there was always a convenient revelation whenever Mahommit needed one, like with the number of wives, or when he lusted after his adopted son's wife?
Or when he wanted to attack the Jews, he had a visit from Gibberishreel?
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The convenient verses dont end there. It gets worse! As he gains the trust of hte gulible beduin arabs, he really starts to take them for a ride.
There are verses in the Cranny that asks the "believers" to not visit the prophe's house without invitation. And if you visit not to ask too many questions to the prophet.
These are very personal matters. Quran is supposed to be a guidance for all mankind and for all ages. But these and so many other verses are 'time specific" in other words, they cannot be applied beyond hte time it was revealed for. Some of them like I showed here are "prophet specific" After the death of the prophet these verses have no use for the rest of the believers.
_________________
"Cannibal or not, Abraham was still human derbris. The same goes for his harlot of a wife, Sarai. I hate Abraham and Sarai. If souls exist then I wish I could destroy their souls, make them cease to exist."
Jeb Niglas |
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Bolding Hansen
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 3061
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| xyxx wrote: |
To those who say the Quran and other Islamic scriptures are quoted out of context:
I don't think we can use verses like 9/5 etc to show Muslims can go killing for no reason. However, in my opinion, the Sharia and the dhimmi-status of non-Muslims can be perfectly justified with the Islamic scriputures. And it is still enough to reject Islam.
Or can you interpret the Sharia in a non-literal way? Do you think that an ideal Islamic society should implement Sharia law including punishment for adultery, apostasy and so on? |
Well you just think so if you like, I think we can, we should, and since we are a target of offensive jihad once they are able, we must!
| Quote: |
"You will invade the Arabian Peninsula and Allah will grant it (to you). Then (you will conquer) Persia and Allah will grant it (to you). Then, you will invade Ar-Rum and Allah will grant it (to you). Then, you will invade The Dajjal and Allah will grant him (to you)." Nafi' said to Jabir, "O Jabir! We do not believe that the Dajjal will appear until Ar-Rum is conquered." (Ibid., no. 2028)
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| Quote: |
Book 004, Number 1063:
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commissioned with words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth which were placed in my hand. And Abfi Huraira added: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has left (for his heavenly home) and you are now busy in getting them.
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Moslems, technically, who feel they continue Muhammads project of conquest. They can´t steal anything because the whole world belongs to Islam.
Nor do they any wrong in conquering or oppressing us, if we are not noble people of the book ( that might stand a chance of getting into heaven ) heathens, atheists, polyteist, they will go forever to hell, better to convert them by the sword so they might enter heaven, ( under threat of sending them straight to hell if they refuse ). Like Khomenei argued, they are doing us a favor, get the(ir) logic ?
| Quote: |
This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, |
The most respected and most read tafsir on Quran on verse 9.5.
I think it is clear enough without comments.
| Quote: |
| Further, Muslims may march into a non-Muslim territory to make it submit to the Islamic state and to the supremacy of the Islamic law which governs human life with its just legislation, and superior guidelines and instructions |
Above is one of most popular scholars, writing on the subject of offensive jihad, if not the most popular ? The al Jazeera star and AL Azhar scholar, Yusuf qaradawi, considered a moderate who condemned the 9/11 attack and attack on civilians ( non Israeli that is, all Israelis can be killed in his view with apostates, homosexuals, and those caught adultery. ), who allows moslems shop owners in the west to sell stuff like alcohol to westernes to make money, find nothing wrong in singing and movies, much to the despair of salafis and other fundamentalists.
There are nice moslems who invented their own airy fairy islam, but the words and acts of muhammad, the scholars view is clear enough.
And though those nice moslems should be viewed and respected as the nice and well meaning people they are.
They should not be allowed to figleaf the true sinister nature of islam.
_________________
I am from the beginning, knowing no end, no aim, no sun illumines me, for I dissolve all lesser lights in my own intenser and steadier light. - H. D. Thoreau |
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