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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:01 am Post subject: A Course in Miracles? |
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Mariane respondes to the following article:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31214.htm
| Quote: |
>
>--- "Mariana ." <crystal_illusion@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Sina,
> >
> > I read your article on the Course in Miracles and
> > then some of the letters
> > you got from people questioning their beliefs.
> > Actually they sound like
> > Course students or coming from that perspective of
> > thinking and questioning
> > all they were taught.
> > Before one can really comment on the Course in
> > Miracles one does have to
> > have read it first in all fairness rather than take
> > out passages and then
> > panic about them.
> > The Course is a perenial Gnostic philosophy. Much as
> > you have in the Sufi
> > tradition of free thinkers.
> > Anyone can read it, from any walk of life and find
> > great encouragement in
> > it. Great strength and clarity and great tolerance
> > for all peoples. The ego
> > it mentions constantly is the small self that
> > agitates (devil) and does not
> > allow for peace. It is a life long process and is
> > based on "perfect love
> > casts out fear" as Paul the apostle stated. Because
> > fear rules ie ego
> > (devil) we cannot get to love(God) because fear is a
> > block to that awareness
> > that you are love. Thats obvious really in our
> > everyday lives. It has a very
> > spiritual message and it is very consistent in the
> > way it is presented. It
> > is up to the individual to believe or not believe,
> > or to use it as a tool
> > for ones journey.
> > I am emphatic that it is NOT a cult or a religion.
> > Other than purchasing the
> > book itself, that is never advertised, there are no
> > other costs involved. It
> > is in the tradition of ancient philosophers who came
> > together to study ideas
> > for a while and then go on their way with certain
> > thoughts in mind which are
> > towards love. We realize we have been badly taught
> > and that we are unhappy
> > and that there must be another way of looking at the
> > world. It all comes
> > from within.All great sages say that.
> > It does use christian words because it is for the
> > western world, it uses
> > psychology too eg, ego but these words are used in a
> > different light, not
> > the way christians use it. Christianity has also
> > been very unchristian to
> > the world, and that is because it was wrongly
> > interpreted I feel.
> > Any way, to cut a long story short, please do read
> > the book itself before
> > commenting on it.
> > The fact that Helen Schucman was not at peace should
> > not in anway be a
> > judgement. Her friend Bill Thetford died in a very
> > peaceful way. We never
> > really know what a person is thinking therefore we
> > must not go by
> > appearances and judge that appearance. That is what
> > it teaches also.
> > Its a sad thing that in the west there were some
> > great thinkers but always
> > the establishment of the day saw fit to destroy
> > them. But truth can never be
> > destroyed. We are glad that in our society we can
> > check out any belief
> > system freely. Let us always keep it so.
> > In peace.
> > |
>Hi Mariana,
>Can you refute my arguments?
| Quote: |
Hi Ali,
It would take ages to do that:))
It is not encouraged by the Course to argue with your brother. He is always right it says.
But to just take one phrase out of this Course and think one understands it is a misnomer. It is a Course after all to help change how you see, if that is what you wish. It is not for everyone. But generally it is there to show us the very first principle and that is to forgive everyone and all the world. Because the world does not see the illusion of hatred and fear. Hatred or fear seems very real to us. That is what it encourages one to do, to undo the fear in us, which should then set you free. Non of that is easy because fear has such a hold on us. I doubt that there would be so much
violence in the world if this was accepted. In this book, God is not seen as having an ego. God is pure Spirit. Pure Love. God could therefore not have created fear, and anything that is negative., or that is not eternal .Spirit is not material..Doesnt favour one over another. Doesnt punish because he didnt create guilt, which is pain. Why would a loving Father create pain?.This book is not a threat in actual fact to anyone, except to ones own ego. You are only dealing with yourself in this book. Now, whether you succeed inovercoming your fears or not is up to you.It also points out that you are never without God in actual fact, no matter what you believe.
The "Voice" it refers to is just that voice we hear anyway as we think. You know, when we think, we hear something in our minds and it says, Ive got to now write a letter, or Ive got to do this or that, or whatever. Thats the voice. It is not some hokus pokus. And it is so wrong to assume that one is schitzophrenic because one is refering to the voice in our heads. But according to the Course there is another Voice that is kind in its dealings with the world. Thats the voice we dont hear very often because of our first listening to the conditioned voice, or the selfish fearful voice.
Helen Schucman was not "channeling" in the usual sense of the word. No trances. It is very much like a poet or writer is inspired all of a sudden to write a great peace of poetry or music. She was able to stop and do things whilst this inspiration was in her mind. Its something we all experience, its no mystery. Only some have a great urge to compose an idea.
We are often thankful that people did write their most wonderful thoughts and feelings, it has inspired us to think with beauty, and help us to explore and share our deeper thoughts. Is that not right? And thats all it is.The Course says that we are all insane,well I cant argue with that. Just look around and see how cruel people are and distructive and unhappy for it. Cant argue with that. But it also says to see how wonderful everything is, but to keep seeing that peace we have to become peaceful within ourselves first because we will not see it otherwise. A lot of good reasoning here. But I must not go on as Ill be here forever.
I just happened to bump into your website and thought Id respond briefly because it mentioned something I had studied. I also noticed that your members were questioning some beliefs in the same spirit of enquiry which I think is the beginning of sanity. I think inner peace is something we all want?
If you want to know more about it there are websites around to explain more of course.
I think its very difficult to write about the subject as it is very vast, takes a lot of thinking. You have to be willing to give it the time to do it. Its very deep and profound. Its just another path towards self knowledge really. There are many others that lead to inner peace.
Wishing you all well.
mariana |
Here is my response:
| Quote: |
| It is not encouraged by the Course to argue with your brother. |
Truth can always be defended. People have beliefs is the stupidest things, some of those beliefs are extremely dangerous, like the cult of Jim Jones or Heaven’s Gate where the believers committed mass suicide. The cult leaders often discourage their followers to discuss their beliefs with others because they fear that this might cause them lose faith. If anyone tells you do not discuss your beliefs with others know that this belief is a fallacy. God gave us a brain to use it. If we don’t we are being ungrateful to this gift and follow evil, thinking it is the right way.
Do you think all those who follow very dangerous faiths know that their faith is false? Of course not! But since they think they should not argue with others they never enter in any discussion, their faith is never challenged and they remain in their ignorance.
On one hand we have Helen Schucman saying
Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
On the other hand she discourages her brainwashed followers to discuss their beliefs with others. What is this? Isn’t this demagogy? If nothing real can be threatened, then why avoid the confrontation of ideas and scrutiny?
What do you mean by “He is always right it says.”?
Is this a mockery? Is this condescension? Or is this the state of the fact? If the first or second, I don’t think it merits any response. But if it is the third case then it is the most absurd statement and if true why you do not accept what “he” says since he is right and you are wrong?
It is disappointing to see how these cults numb the brain and you obviously think you have found such wonderful religion that tells you to love and forgive. Don’t you really know this much? Do you need someone else telling you what is commonsense, and do you have to forsake your rational faculty to follow these teachings that are commonsense at best and stupid at worst?
What I read so far from the Course including from your message tells me this is nothing but a Course in Stupidity. You tell me God has not created fear. These are empty feel-good words that mean nothing. Fear is an essential part of our psyche and it is there for our own self preservation. All animals fear and thanks to this fear they survive the dangers. In Humans fear plays an important role for our survival too. We should not eliminate fear but rather get rid of the false fears – fears that are based on ignorance and are unfounded. A person who fears nothing is not a courageous person but a reckless and stupid person who will be a dead person in no time.
| Quote: |
| “Why would a loving Father create pain?” |
Because pain, like fear, is a warning mechanism. If your finger contacts fire, it burns and you immediately withdraw your hand to avoid further burning. If you did not feel pain you would not avoid the fire and your body would burn. Pain and fear are necessary for our survival. Pain warns us that something is wrong so we can fix it. Spiritual pain follows the same philosophy. If I did not feel the pain of my fellow humans I would not care about them. If I did not feel the pain of loneliness I would not seek a soul mate. Pain and fear are divine tools. They are necessary for our survival. A car is made to run, but it needs a brake too. Without the brake the car is dangerous. Fear and pain may not sound pleasing to you but without them you will not be complete.
Now if I want to overcome my unfounded fear why I need to follow a stupid book and believe in nonsense? Fear and pain are my allies. I do not have to get rid of them but rather take notice of them and use them to my benefit. But if I want to get rid of my phobia and unfounded fears why do I need to read such a nonsense book to tell me what I already know? First I have to determine which fear is real and which ones are false. Then I should respect my fears of the real dangers and try to overcome my phobia. Anyone is capable of doing that. This power is within each and every human being. But alas many can’t see the difference and can’t fight their phobia. These are the people who believe in absurdities instead of thinking rationally and independently. Religions do not help us overcome our fears. They add to our unfounded fears. False fears can only be eliminated through knowledge not through blind belief in jumbo mumbo and nonsense.
| Quote: |
| This book is not a threat in actual fact to anyone, except to ones own ego. |
It is a threat to human intelligence. It is a threat to human’s rational faculty. No it is not a physical threat like the Qruan that says go and kill anyone who is not a Muslim, but it reduces humans into brainless believers of gobbledygook and nonsense. Some empty words are taught as ultimate truth and the brainless followers are discouraged to think on their own. I see nothing in this Course that I can’t find on my own. Furthermore I know many things (such as the meaning of pain and fear) that the author of that Course did not know.
| Quote: |
| Helen Schucman was not "channeling" in the usual sense of the word. No trances. It is very much like a poet or writer is inspired all of a sudden to write a great peace of poetry or music. She was able to stop and do things whilst this inspiration was in her mind. Its something we all experience, its no mystery. Only some have a great urge to compose an idea. |
Well that is how everyone else composes their writings. But why should you start a cult around this woman? She also claimed to receive these “revelations” from Jesus. I do write when I am inspired. My writings are far more profound and rational than this Course in Stupidity this woman wrote. I invite people to discuss these points and challenge me. Despite that I have laid no claims. Anyone who can think rationally and is honest to himself can produce similar or better rational teachings. I do not accuse Hellen Schucman for being less intelligent than me. I accuse her for being a liar, for deceiving people and making false claims.
| Quote: |
| We are often thankful that people did write their most wonderful thoughts and feelings, it has inspired us to think with beauty, and help us to explore and share our deeper thoughts. Is that not right? And thats all it is. |
I do share my thoughts with the world and I know they inspire many people. However I am not fooling people by telling them this is a message I received from another world. I tell them these are my thoughts. You can produce even better thoughts if you use my technique. I also tell them what technique I use. My technique is simple. Here it the outline:
Doubt everything,
Do not believe in anything,
Follow no one,
Be honest to myself,
Try to see the truth irrespective of the source,
Truth must be compatible with reason otherwise it is a lie,
Now, that is simple. Anyone using this guideline can come up with the most wonderful thoughts.
The difference between Schucman and I is that I am honest but she was a liar. I am not condemning her for being a less intelligent person than me. I am less intelligent than many others and I do not think I deserve to be condemned. But I condemn this woman for lying. That is a sin which is not forgivable.
And yes, one must not forgive everything. Dishonesty and deceit like cruelty and crime need to be condemned and never forgiven. We may forgive the sinner but never the sin. Schucman’s deceitful claim of receiving revelations is contemptuous and must be condemned. Unless anyone can prove factually that she actually did receive such revelation. Since his brainwashed followers do not wish to engage in these kinds of debates, then it is obvious that there is no proof to substantiate her claims.
| Quote: |
| but to keep seeing that peace we have to become peaceful within ourselves |
Make sure you do not confuse the inner peace with brainlessness. You can be in peace even when you are alert, doubting and questioning things. You do not need to be a brainless believer in order to be in peace. Once you kill your brain to be at peace with yourself, you do not become at peace but rather you become impaired, susceptible and easy to fleece. That is no peace, that is stupidity.
| Quote: |
| The Course says that we are all insane, well I cant argue with that. |
That is nonsense. Not all of us are insane. Helen Schucman was insane and those who follow her or any other unfounded belief are also insane. I am not insane and I know many others who are not. Anyone who is capable to use the method I described above is not insane. People who can reach that level of enlightenment are very much sane. What else is sanity if not being able to think independently, rationally, truthfully, inquisitively and without prejudice?
| Quote: |
| Just look around and see how cruel people are and distructive and unhappy for it. |
A great part of this destructive cruelty and unhappiness comes from false doctrines and unfounded beliefs. Just look at the Islamic terrorists. They kill people because of their totally unfounded beliefs. Your belief in this Course in Stupidity is not as dangerous as theirs but it is equally unfounded and absurd.
| Quote: |
| Its very deep and profound. |
What is deep and profound? This is an oxymoron. The Course in Miracles is another baseless belief system. It is amusing to see the believers always think their dogma is deep and profound. Bring that deep and profound and let us challenge it. I already challenged your idea of fear and pain and showed how shallow they are. Would you like to share with us more of your “deep and profound” religious thoughts and test it in the litmus of reason?
Rear my spiritual musing and compare them to the stupid thoughts of this Hellen Schucman. Yet I am just an avarge guy and she calimed to be a prophetess.
Rational Spirituality
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina40313.htm
Religion of Love
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40527.htm
Definition of Love
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40529.htm
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own.
Last edited by Ali Sina on Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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momtaz
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 845
Location: Very Close to Allah
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
My writings are far more profound and rational than this Course in Stupidity this woman wrote. I invite people to discuss these points and challenge me. Despite that I have laid no claims. Anyone who can think rationally and is honest to himself can produce similar or better rational teachings. I do not accuse Hellen Schucman for being less intelligent than me. I accuse her for being a liar, for deceiving people and making false claims.
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Ali, can I take this as an invitation to argue with you? I have always wanted to discuss some issues with you regarding a few of your articles and your true intentions behind writing them. But I do not know how well ytou will take them. And it makes me unomfortable to ar gue wit h you because I consider you my mentor. I have no faith in my elders ho cared for me, neither in my parents. The only place I can go to for advice and opinion is to good intellectual people like you. And I relate more to you because I too am guided more by my brain than by my heart.
If you havent already guessed, it is about your concept of the hereafter and the human soul.
_________________
What is the cause of Islamic Terrorism & Madness?
"It is ISLAM, it is the BOOK, and it is the MUHAMMED"
yeezevee |
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momtaz
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 845
Location: Very Close to Allah
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:45 am Post subject: |
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In Moonwebs, award-winning journalist Josh Freed penetrates the complex and frightening world of modern day cults. He describes the incredible efforts made by friends to extricate their friend Benji Miller from the grasp of cult leader Sun Myung Moon. When friends and family risked thousands of dollars and criminal charges to kidnap Benji and deprogram him, author Josh Freed was with them. He conveys the terrifying power of the Unification Church by describing their harrowing brainwashing techniques.
The Moonwebs: Journey into the minds of a Cult.
this is an excelltent book that takes the reader into the workings of a mind exposed to prolonged brainwashing. modern day cult s operate pretty much in the same way religios fuinction, especially Christianity and Islam. They have much in common. (If you do not take in to account the followiongs cults and major religions have)
Book Review!
_________________
What is the cause of Islamic Terrorism & Madness?
"It is ISLAM, it is the BOOK, and it is the MUHAMMED"
yeezevee |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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This is what Mariana responded:
| Quote: |
Ali, you are completely right!
Blessings to you. |
I already talked about this.
If you have come to see I am right why in the world you follow a wrong doctrine? Why don’t you give up?
If by this you are trying to mock or be condescending, then that is the sign of your inability to face the truth. This is how cults control the minds of their followers. They tell them do not argue with those who do not agree with you. Just pray for them and leave them. In this way the cultist feels she is superior and also she is protected from being exposed to enlightening thoughts that may open her mind.
It is a shame that people allow themselves to be used to this extent by a self serving ambitious cult leader and accepts to throw away their intelligence and inquisitive mind.
Any truth can be debated and if it is truth nothing can debunk it. Why are you afraid to discuss? Isn’t it because you fear this may shatter your cherish beliefs and you come to see how foolish this whole business of the Course in Miracles is?
In another email a few minutes later:
| Quote: |
Forgot to mention, Helen Shucman should be hung, drung and quareterd.
She is an evil witch and must be destroyed. OK?
I just have to ask how are you different from any other persecutionist? |
No, we do not have to hang that witch. She is dead anyway. We have to bring sense to her brainless followers. These cults do not bring people closer to each other. They divide them and cause disunity. Lies never benefit mankind.
Humanity must get rid of the old lies, not invent new ones to replace the old ones. This cycle of ignorance must end. What this witch had done is to create a new lie may be to win a bet and show how gullible people can be. And then she liked being a prophetess and continued to play the game. If I had no scruples I could create the most convincing religion, far better and far more spiritual than all the present ones. But to do that, I have to step over my conscience and lie. That is something I am not good at. Unfortunately not everyone has a conscience.
No one should be persecuted for his or her beliefs. But people must be guided so they do not fall into the trap of charlatans and liars.
Of course these charlatans say something that is commonsense and people like. This is all intended to lure people to their web of lies. What happens next is that they are stripped from their rational faculty and become brainless zombies believing in any gobbledygook. Instead of thinking they prefer to study what the cult leader tells them. They overlook the divine inside themselves and look for it in someone else who is imbued with ambition and lust for power. In other words good people follow the evil ones. And the result is that mankind is divided in thousands of sects, each claiming to have found the truth and condescending of others.
The evil of these cults and so called religions is in the fact that they divide mankind and cause sedition.
Mankind’s peace and unity will never be achieved unless and until all these beliefs are eradicated and people start using their own brains.
These old beliefs are dying on their own. Peopel follow them out of the habit and tradition. Why fabricate new ones?
_________________
Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
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