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Funk Soul Bruvha
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Thailand
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 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: "Qur'an Only" not possible to be Muslim |
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I'm posting this here per the suggestion of others.
Feel free to draw from it whenever you run into a "Qur'an Only" Muslim.
-Funk
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| Ameer wrote: |
| I don't find things in the Qu'ran objectable but many Hadiths are objectable, so I don't really follow Hadiths. Firstly, there is so many fake ones. And even if they were true, if they go against Islam's teaches, they are still wrong. I think the best thing to do is just not take Hadith's seriously. |
Aye, there's the rub.... not taking them seriously is impossible.
Without the Hadith, you cannot know Mohammad.
Without knowing anything about Mohammad, there is no Islam.
If you doubt the Hadith you are doubting the entirety of Islam, and therefore apostate/murtad/kafir (whatever applies to you).
In fact, 4 out of 5 of Islam’s Pillars would not exist without the Hadith, and the Qur’an would be indecipherable.
| Quote: |
| Bukhari:V1B2N7 “Allah’s Apostle said: ‘Islam is based on (the following) five (principles): 1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle.’” |
The Qur’an orders Muslims to obey the Messenger. If you don’t know what he ordered, that’s impossible. The Qur’an alleges that it’s entirely composed of Allah’s commands, not Muhammad’s, so you’d be out of luck. The Qur’an also tells Muslims that they must follow the Messenger’s example, yet the only place that example is established is in the Sunnah. Therefore, Islam’s First Pillar is utterly meaningless, and impossible to implement, without Ishaq and Tabari.
| Quote: |
“2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.” |
Once again, that’s not feasible. The “compulsory congregational prayer” isn’t described in the Qur’an. There aren’t even any clues. In fact, the Qur’an says that there should be three prayers, none of which it depicts, and the Hadith demands five. The only explanation of the obligatory prostration is found in the Sunnah—and even then it’s never described by the prophet himself. Muslims are performing a ritual without Qur’anic precedence. As such, the Second Pillar is rubble.
| Quote: |
Bukhari:V1B2N7 “3. To pay Zakat.” |
How is that possible when the terms of the Zakat are omitted from the Qur’an? The first to commit them to paper was Ishaq. A century later, Tabari referenced Ishaq’s Hadith. The only reason Muslims can pay the Zakat is because Ishaq explained it to them.
| Quote: |
| “4. To perform Hajj.” |
Nope. That’s impossible too. The only explanations of the Hajj are in the Sunnah. No aspect of the pilgrimage can be performed without referencing the Hadith. Muslims would be lost without it.
Do you suppose Allah will redeem himself and explain the final pillar in his “perfect, detailed, and final revelation to mankind?”
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Bukhari:V1B2N7 “5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.” |
Though the Quran descibes the fast, without the Hadith, Muslims wouldn’t know why Ramadan was so special. The accounts of the meaning of Ramadan are in their Traditions—initially chronicled by Ishaq and then copied by Bukhari, Muslim, and Tabari.
Funny thing is, the one pillar that is actually described in the Quran, is actually a borrowed pagan ritual Qusayy invented pre-dating Mohammad's Islam. Qusayy's family took a cut on merchandise sold during the “truce of the gods” fairs of Ramadhan.
You have a serious dilemma to ponder, Ameer.
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Last edited by Funk Soul Bruvha on Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Funk Soul Bruvha
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Thailand
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:26 am Post subject: |
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* UPDATED *
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Hume
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 3617
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Do you have the quotes from the koran how mohammedans should follow Mohammeds example?
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... natural selection is sort of a matter of faith on my part since the theory is so coherent and so powerful
Richard Dawkins on Natural Selection
BAH, Humbug! |
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Funk Soul Bruvha
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Thailand
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Hume wrote: |
| Do you have the quotes from the koran how mohammedans should follow Mohammeds example? |
Here is but a few on obeying Mohammad (there are MANY more):
| Quote: |
Qur’an 4: 64 “We sent not a messenger but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah.”
Qur’an 4:80 “He who obeys the Messenger obeys Allah.”
Qur’an 5:92 “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and beware!”
Qur’an 24:53 Say: ‘Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.’ Say: ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.”
Qur’an 48:10 “Verily those who swear allegiance to you (Muhammad), indeed swear their allegiance to Allah.” |
On following Mo's example:
| Quote: |
033.021 “Verily in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example for him who looks unto Allah and the Last Day.”
060.004 “There is for you an excellent example, a pattern in Abraham and those with him[ie: Mohammad], when they said to their people: ‘We are through with you and with what you worship besides Allah. We reject you. Hostility and hate have come between us forever, unless you believe in Allah only.’”
006.083 “And this was Our argument which we gave to Abraham against his people. And We gave him Ishaq (Isaac) and Yah’qub (Jacob) [Oops. Abraham was given Isaac and Ishmael. Jacob came later]; each did We guide, and Nuh (Noah) did We guide before, and of his descendants, David and Solomon, and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron; and thus do We reward those who do good (following Muhammad’s example in the Sunnah). And Zachariah and Yahya (John), Isa (Jesus) and Elias; every one was of the good [i.e. Muslims]; And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot and every one We preferred above men and jinn.” |
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Anna Doe
Joined: 25 Dec 2005
Posts: 2745
Location: Somewhere on the spheric kafir earth, vaccinating people against islam
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12420
| Quote: |
Brother, there is no benefit in us discussing these issues with you, when you are not prepared to accept the statements of our beloved prophet (Sallalahu alaihi wasallam) as proof.
Please look deep into your hear and check the level of your Iman. You claim to follow the Quran, yet what answer do you give to the various verses commanding you to obey the Prophet (sallallahu Alaihi wasallam)? Maybe you would give the normal answer of the misguided "Munkireen al hadith"(Rejecters of ahadith) that this was for those who were present in the time of Nabi (sallallahu alaihiasallam). As for us, as the hadith never reached us in a pure and pristine form (according to their baatil opinion), thus we don't have to follow the ahadith. The answer to it is simple:1. You are thus claiming that Allah Ta'ala commanded you to do something without providing the means for it, thus Allah ordered you to do something impossible. This is baatil, as Allah Ta'ala could never order one to do something out of his capacity.
2. In that case, Nabi (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) only benefited those in his time, as his teachings never reached those after him. You are then going clearly against the Quran, which emphatically states that Nabi (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) is a mercy for al of mankind!
3. You claim to follow the Quran as the hadith has been distorted, our question to you is how do you know that the Quran hasn't been distorted? If you say that Allah Ta'ala clearly states that He will protect the Quran, the simple answer to it is that this verse could be a distortion or fabrication!!
There is no sense in us answering our queries as you deny the very proofs upon which our answers would be based. According to you, it would be permissible to "marry an animal", consume faeces, etc. as none of these are expressly forbidden in the Quran. We make dua to Allah Ta'ala to guide you from your deviation and accept us all for the service of his deen, Amin
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Ml. Husain Kadodia
STUDENT: Darul Ifta
CHECKED & APPROVED: Mufti Ebrahim Desai |
Thanks to WikiIslam:
http://www.wikiislam.org/index.php/Shameful_admissions
_________________
Vaccinate yourself against islam: read the koran!
Orenda: islam orders women to hide themselves so rapists won't be tempted to harass them, it is as stupid as to ask colored people to hide themselves so racists won't be tempted to harass them |
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The numerology of Dr. Rashad Khalifa - scientist
This is the second of two related columns. The first, "Farrakhan, Cabala, Baha'i, and 19," appeared in the March/April 1997 issue.
In recent years the Muslim who worked the hardest in searching for instances of 19 in the Koran was the late Dr. Rashad Khalifa. After graduating from Ain Shams University in Cairo, where he ranked first in his class, he obtained a masters degree from the University of Arizona, and a doctorate in plant biochemistry in 1964 from the University of California, Riverside. After two years with the Egyptian government, he became a research assistant at the University of Arizona, followed by work for the Monsanto Company in St. Louis.
During 1975 and 1976 Khalifa was science advisor to the Libyan government. He was employed by the United Nations' Industrial Development Organization, in Vienna, before he became a senior chemist in Arizona's State Office of Chemistry in 1980. He published more than twenty scientific papers, a book titled The Computer Speaks: God's Message to the World, a 538-page new translation of the Koran, and numerous religious articles and pamphlets. His books and related publications are available from the International Community of Submitters (ICS), P.O. Box 43476, Tucson, AZ 85733.
In 1972 Dr. Khalifa privately printed a monograph titled Number 19: A Numerical Miracle in the Koran. He believed this booklet offered for the first time in history physical proof of God's existence. How? By showing beyond all doubt that the Koran must have been written by Allah, and that the text, unlike the Christian Bible, had been perfectly preserved. In a 1980 letter to me he said his results were "so overwhelming that they will inevitably shake the world," although Satan would do all he could to block the great revelation.
I have space for only a tiny selection of claims made by Dr. Khalifa. The Koran has 6 x 19 = 114 suras (chapters). The number of verses is 19 x 334 = 6,346, and the digits of that number add to 19. The Koran contains 19 x 17,324 = 329,156 letters. The invocation verse, called the Basmala ("In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful"), heads every sura except the ninth, but appears an extra time in the middle of Sura 27 (3 x 9). This invocation contains 19 Arabic letters. Its first word, Bism, occurs in the Koran 19 times. Its second word, Allah, appears 19 x 142 = 2,698 times. The third word, Al-Rahman, is repeated 19 x 3 = 57 times, and the fourth word, Al-Rahmeen, occurs 19 x 6 = 114 times. The sum of the verse numbers that mention Allah is 19 x 6,217 = 118,123. Thirty different numbers are mentioned in the Koran. These thirty numbers add to 19 x 8,534 = 162,146.
Each of twenty-nine suras is prefixed by a mysterious set of either one, two, three, four, or five disconnected, seemingly meaningless letters. The significance of these letters has long been a mystery. Khalifa claimed to have decoded them, and that they, too, bristle with 19s. Dozens of other findings involving 19 derive from applications of the ancient Arabic gematria.
Dr. Khalifa's research used a computer program that counted the number of times each letter occurred in each sura of the Koran. On the traditional belief that Muhammad could neither read nor write, the embedding of 19 throughout the Koran is proof, Khalifa maintained, that the Koran was dictated by Allah.
Khalifa's writings on 19 sold widely throughout Islamic countries where they became strongly controversial, not only because his numerology tended to support the Baha'i heresy with its emphasis on 19 (see my March/April column), but also because Khalifa rejected the last two verses of Sura 9 as spurious. Why? Because in nine places they violated the secret 19-code. So much for his earlier claim that the text of the Koran had been miraculously preserved from corruption!
Attacks on Khalifa increased in Muslim nations. His writings were banned. Muslim scholars likened his numerology to Jewish and Christian gematria. But it was much more than that. Khalifa rejected Hadith (words attributed to Muhammad), Sunnah (practices said to have been initiated by Muhammad), and Ijma (the consensus of scholars about Muslim doctrines). In brief, he rejected Islamic tradition. Like his counterparts among Protestant fundamentalists with respect to the Bible, he held that the Koran was the only reliable source of Islamic beliefs. Islamic leaders were incensed by his demand that the last two verses of Sura 9 be removed. Their fury increased when Khalifa's egotism grew to the point of declaring himself the divine messenger of Allah foretold in the Koran (3:81). Death threats against him steadily mounted.
The Muslim Digest, published in South Africa, strongly attacked Khalifa as a sinister heretic. Its July/October 1986 issue disputed his word counts. The word Allah, it is claimed, is in the Koran 2,811 times, not 2,698 as Khalifa said. Al-Rahman is there 169 times, not 57 as Khalifa insisted. And so on. "Obviously," an editor wrote, "Dr. Rashad Khalifa's computer needs to brush up on its arithmetic." Earlier attacks on Khalifa are in issues July/August 1981 and March/April 1982. |
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_n5_v21/ai_20121071
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</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
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Anna Doe
Joined: 25 Dec 2005
Posts: 2745
Location: Somewhere on the spheric kafir earth, vaccinating people against islam
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously allah's computer needs to brush up on its arithmetic too!
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/inheritance.htm
_________________
Vaccinate yourself against islam: read the koran!
Orenda: islam orders women to hide themselves so rapists won't be tempted to harass them, it is as stupid as to ask colored people to hide themselves so racists won't be tempted to harass them |
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Khalifa also put himself into the Koran:
| Quote: |
| [25:56] We have sent you (Rashad) as a deliverer of good news, as well as a warner. |
http://www.submission.org//suras/sura25.html
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</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
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Tribalnation
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1002
Location: Desert Southwest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Sawhatdee, Funk Soul Bruvha! I hope that life in Thailand is treating you well, even though Gen Fecal-matter-for-gray-matter seems even more determined to run the country into the ground then the ousted PM.
You do bring up excellent points, my man. Rather than go another round with me denouncing Mohammad (PISS BE UPON HIM) for sexing up a nine-year old girl, many try to sweep the whole hadith affair under the carpet. But if they do so, they sweep the basic donctrines of is-lame under the carpet as well.
I'm so glad you articulated this, as now they literally have nowhere to run. If they are muslim, they have to accept the hadith. And the hadith puts the Pedophile Mohammad (STILL EMPTYING MY BLADDER ON HIM) front and center. So either you accept you follow a man who victimised a child, or reject the basic tennants of the "faith" he founded.
As well, your well presented piece debunks (with some input from Me, of course!) any and every excuse they might use.
EXCUSE: It was a common practice back in those days!
Answer: But don't you claim that Mohammad (DONE PISSING, NOW LET ME EVACUATE MY BOWELS, THEN WIPE WITH HIS TURBAN) is the "good example, for all times"? If that's the case, then his actio0ns would not be deraved or wrong, regardless of what era they may be judged. Justg where is Mo so exhalted, anyway? Hadith or quran?
EXCUSE: He was just a man doing what was acceptable in his time.
Answer: See above. But this one is better, because now you strip him of his prophethood, and thus throw is-lame in the trash bin altogether.
EXCUSE: The marriage, and Mohammad's (MISSED A SPOT, GIMME BACK THAT TURBAN) consumation of it was allah's will (lower case intentional).
Answer: All you get pounded with ad nauseum in the quran is how allah is most gracious, most merciful. So the hadiths don't even factor in here. So if you can honestly tell me that an all-knowing, all-powerful, most gracious and merciful diety would sanction such a thing, then please allow us in the Western world to deport all our pedophiles in prison to your countries. If the diety that you get face-down, ass-up to pray to (that's in the hadiths, though, right?) COMMANDS this to happen, then you should have no issue with men who think and act the same way. What? You don;t want them unless they're Michael Jackson?
All the other cock-and-bull excuses have been so completely debunked that they don't merit mention.
_________________
Criticism -- isn’t valid criticism dependent on faultfinding, and isn’t valid faultfinding dependent on verifiable error and failure? Just a question...
Muslims generally despise people who keep them alive and revere people who kill them. |
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Sanitarium
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Full list for ixolite.
Rashid Khalifa in the Quran
| Quran 13:30 wrote: |
We have sent you (O Rashad) to this community, just as we did for other communities in the past. You shall recite to them what we reveal to you, for they have disbelieved in the Most Gracious. Say, "He is my Lord. There is no god except He. I put my trust in Him alone; to Him is my ultimate destiny."
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| Quran 13:38 wrote: |
We have sent messengers before you (O Rashad), and we made them husbands with wives and children. No messenger can produce a miracle without GOD's authorization, and in accordance with a specific, predetermined time.
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| Quran 25:56 wrote: |
We have sent you (Rashad) as a deliverer of good news, as well as a warner.
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| Quran 34:28 wrote: |
We have sent you (O Rashad) to all the people, a bearer of good news, as well as a warner, but most people do not know.
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| Quran 34:46 wrote: |
Say, "I ask you to do one thing: Devote yourselves to GOD, in pairs or as individuals, then reflect. Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy. He is a manifest warner to you, just before the advent of a terrible retribution."
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| Quran 36:3 wrote: |
Most assuredly, you (Rashad) are one of the messengers.
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| Quran 42:24 wrote: |
Are they saying, "He (Rashad) has fabricated lies about GOD!"? If GOD willed, He could have sealed your mind, but GOD erases the falsehood and affirms the truth with His words. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
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| Quran 81:22 wrote: |
Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy.
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*laughs at 81:22* hahahahaha
-Sani
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Sani,
especially the 81:22 is great. 
_________________
</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
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Sanitarium
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.
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Anna Doe
Joined: 25 Dec 2005
Posts: 2745
Location: Somewhere on the spheric kafir earth, vaccinating people against islam
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:46 am Post subject: |
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I think Abul Kaseem's article
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1252
have many good points regarding QOM (Quran Only Muslims!)
_________________
Vaccinate yourself against islam: read the koran!
Orenda: islam orders women to hide themselves so rapists won't be tempted to harass them, it is as stupid as to ask colored people to hide themselves so racists won't be tempted to harass them |
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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
Location: Location: Location
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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A hadith posted by Sahara in another thread.
| Sahih Muslim B8 #3236 wrote: |
| Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reported that some of the Companions of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) asked his (the Prophet's) wives about the acts that he performed in private. Someone among them (among his Companions) said: I will not marry women; someone among them said: I will not eat meat; and someone among them said: I will not lie down in bed. He (the Holy Prophet) praised Allah and glorified Him, and said: What has happened to these people that they say so and so, whereas I observe prayer and sleep too; I observe fast and suspend observing them; I marry women also? And he who turns away from my Sunnah, he has no relation with Me |
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A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil. |
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Anna Doe
Joined: 25 Dec 2005
Posts: 2745
Location: Somewhere on the spheric kafir earth, vaccinating people against islam
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_Alone
| Quote: |
Qur'anist / Qur'an Alone groups:
The Ahle Qur'an
Bazm-e-Tolu-e-Islam
United Submitters International
Dissident Submitters
Non-organised Qur'anic Muslims |
Is Ahmed Bahgat aware that Free-minds website is cited in the last group?
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Always_Faithfull, they are koran only, so they don't accept the ahadith. They don't care about support in the ahadith that the ahadith are important as we don't care about the koran saying the koran is important.  
_________________
Vaccinate yourself against islam: read the koran!
Orenda: islam orders women to hide themselves so rapists won't be tempted to harass them, it is as stupid as to ask colored people to hide themselves so racists won't be tempted to harass them |
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