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THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject:

Agnostic Indian wrote:

A thinking mind could have otherwise invested less effort and agreed

Why would any thinking mind agree with palpable absurdity?
_________________
Nullius In Verba

crazy canuck

Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 6391

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

Agnostic Indian wrote:

all these are reqests/notions ..These aint the way the animal world behaves sans a hinge of morality !

Interesting.

1. Are you actually unaware of altruism in animals? I suggest you do more research. Start with the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals

2. If we were to grant, arguendo, that there was no morality among animals, why exactly would that have any implication to human morality?

AI wrote:

Religion uses God as a hinge to instill these individual benefits to society at large

Can you defend that with any serious correlation between the religiousity of a society and its morality? How do you align the great religiousity of nations like, oh, the United States and Iran with their morality?

Dear T.H.,

There is no "honest to god altruism" in animal kingdom, not even in humans.

Animals kingdom's altruism is mostly extension of its survival instinct in wide term. A chimp mom sacrificing her well being for her offspring or other memebers of the troop is for survival of the species.In wider sense its for the propagation of its own gene.As it was mentioned in article its mostly reciprocal altruism.I wont call it altruism.

Human brain is lot more developed and here altruism is lot more sublime. In case of humans altruism almost always has to do with survival of tribe, religion and nation, infants. Great leaders do all kind of personal sacrifices so that people will remember them , as long as people remember them their gene has survived in spiritual sense.

. Rightnow Mohemmed's spiritual gene is survived when 1.2 billion shouts... and Mohemmed is the prophet of Allah.

C.C.

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:51 am Post subject:

Agnostic Indian wrote:

charleslemartel wrote:

It wouldn't really take too much of an effort to find out if Buddhism and Jainism believe in God or not. Would you make the little effort it requires?

Attaining Nirvana is not becoming God. Please try to find out what it is. I can give you the links if you wish to know; googling these terms wouldn't be that difficult for you though.

Buddhism is nothing but an extension of the principles of Xth Chapter of RigVeda which asserts that there is no such thing as a God.the soul takes takes birth with the individual and dies after his/her death.Nirvana means the process of taking oneslef to the state so that the rebirth does not happen (Ceases:Nirvana).
Again thats not the point..
Both you an i agree that a good religion can have a positive impact on human morality.
In Abrhaminic religions, the hinge is a personal God and in another it may be the ceasing of the cycle of rebirth
You are a theist if you believe in the cycle of rebirth

Since belief in a religion or God can turn man either in to a Buddha or a Muhammad, it is futile and wrong to argue for religion or God claiming that it promotes ethics or morality.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

ChabadMizrachi

Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 52

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:39 am Post subject:

charleslemartel wrote:

Agnostic Indian wrote:

charleslemartel wrote:

Since belief in a religion or God can turn man either in to a Buddha or a Muhammad, it is futile and wrong to argue for religion or God claiming that it promotes ethics or morality.

But then arguing for Atheism is even more futile because the only thing you get out of it is wholesale immorality. And I say that with certainty.
_________________
It is G-d who created you and me, and everything you see. To deny this is idiocy. How can complex life forms come into being by "chance", out of "nothingness"? EVILution is FALSE!!! It is STILL only a "theory", after 200 years.

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject:

ChabadMizrachi wrote:

But then arguing for Atheism is even more futile because the only thing you get out of it is wholesale immorality. And I say that with certainty.

When a person is certain about that things that do not appear to be true, one appropriate label might be "delusional." The evidence of history is that there is no correlation between belief in god and morality.

Athiests prove to be just as morally capable and competent as theists.

Go figure.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

Agnostic Indian

Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 208

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

ChabadMizrachi wrote:

But then arguing for Atheism is even more futile because the only thing you get out of it is wholesale immorality. And I say that with certainty.

When a person is certain about that things that do not appear to be true, one appropriate label might be "delusional." The evidence of history is that there is no correlation between belief in god and morality.

Atheists prove to be just as morally capable and competent as theists.

Go figure.

Gross National Happiness: Why Happiness Matters for America--and How We Can Get More of It (Hardcover)
by Arthur C. Brooks (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Gross-National-Happiness-Matters-America/dp/0465002781/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225481036&sr=8-1

start here

Agnostic Indian

Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 208

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

ChabadMizrachi wrote:

But then arguing for Atheism is even more futile because the only thing you get out of it is wholesale immorality. And I say that with certainty.

That emboldened view takes away the right from you to fight Islam

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject:

ChabadMizrachi wrote:

charleslemartel wrote:

Since belief in a religion or God can turn man either in to a Buddha or a Muhammad, it is futile and wrong to argue for religion or God claiming that it promotes ethics or morality.

But then arguing for Atheism is even more futile because the only thing you get out of it is wholesale immorality. And I say that with certainty.

Are you first acknowledging that arguing for religion or God claiming that it promoted ethics or morality is futile?

Answer my question first, and then we shall discuss whether arguing for atheism is less or more futile.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject:

Agnostic Indian wrote:

That emboldened view takes away the right from you to fight Islam

1) If Islam were only a religion, that might be true. But it's not, so it's not.

2) A general claim regarding "religion" is not the same as a specific claim regarding a specific religion.

3) Why do you imagine "morality" would be the only reason to fight against Islam?
_________________
Nullius In Verba

sword_of_truth

Joined: 12 Oct 2008
Posts: 255

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:13 am Post subject:

I've been away for a while. I see some havoc has been going on in this thread.

Quote:

Atheism has one big odd against Humanity:
It cannot give one a single reason as to why should one be good to others!

It does not need to. They already want to be good to others. This is like saying a hammer is bad because it will not work on screws. This is not the task of atheism, but secular moral philosophy, which only involves atheism only to the extent that it cannot depend on a God to justify morality. And there are many reasons independent of God to be moral. Furthermore, if some atheists find these reasons convincing, then they achieve their goal whether you like it or not. Secular moral philosophy need not be confined to atheists, by the way. It is possible to give reasons besides God to be moral, independently of whether you are an atheist. Lack of belief in God is a fairly inconsequential thing. Most atheists would just fall back on agnosticism or even deism and be virtually unchanged.

Quote:

Furthermore, when an atheist jumps into the 'evolution' bandwagon things get worse!
evolution/natural selection indicates the survival of the fittest.

Join the two facts above and you get what?
There's no darn God and the fittest shall survive

This is an absurd statement, and I don't know that anyone addressed the main point that should be made. Accepting the facts of evolution has nothing to do with believing that the fittest SHOULD survive. What you are basically claiming here is that because I accept certain well-established scientific facts about the natural history of plants and animals, that implies that I think we shouldn't take care of handicapped people.

Well, the fact is that I do accept evolution completely, yet I believe in taking care of handicapped people. To accuse atheists of thinking that we should just let fittest survive is just plain wrong. Period. Atheists don't think that way, evolutionists don't think that way. Deal with it. Stop putting words in our mouths. We don't think that way. End of story. You are just making stuff up that has no relation to reality. You clearly know nothing substantial about the atheist thought process, and are therefore completely disqualified from commenting on it to any thinking person who understands anything atheists are saying.

Quote:

I wonder what argument do the atheists put forward to Muslims in favor of leaving Islam????
Because ironically the Islamist war cry is just a minor extension of the atheists' thought process:
There's no darn God[, but Allah] and the fittest[Islam] shall survive
Educate me if i am wrong

This is so silly. These are not atheists thought processes. These are your own thought processes trying to refute atheism in complete disreguard to what atheists actually think. You are not referring to real atheists, but imaginary ones of your own creation, so we are not accountable for these charges. Come back when you get atheists actual views straight.

IandonlyI

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 2884

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:30 am Post subject:

Agnostic Indian and Charles Martel, The belief that Buddhism is athiest is a big lie. I dont believe in God to achieve my goals is different than saying I disbelieve in existence of God. Buddhism does not disbelieve in existence of God athiesm does. Like Agnostic Indian says, somewhere deep down in Indian philosophy, it says that to attain Nirvana you dont need God. You do your dharma and do it right and the rest will follow. In movie matrix that kid bends the spoon(obviously not really) but what does he tell keanu reeves? That it is you not the spoon. There is a big difference guys, stop saying this lie. _________________ If you cannot see god in all, how can you see god at all?

sword_of_truth

Joined: 12 Oct 2008
Posts: 255

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:48 am Post subject:

There are different kinds of Buddhism. It is possible to be a sort of Bhuddhist atheist. It's not a total lie, although Buddhism across the board in all its forms is not atheist.

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:25 am Post subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism _________________ Happy New Year to Everyone Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought. Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

IandonlyI

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 2884

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:18 am Post subject:

charleslemartel wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

And what is the point of this link? I did a CTRL-F on that site for word "athiest" and I could not find it.

But I did find this " Buddhism is usually considered a religion, but is also commonly described as a "spiritual philosophy", since it generally lacks an Absolute creator god. The Buddhist approach is clinical and systematic"

Dude, trust me, Buddhism is not athiest, this is a big misunderstanding in west. Yes maybe, for people who dont want to believ ein God it works well. But the aim of any buddhist is "Nirvana" and to achieve Nirvana they do not believe they need God, that's all, that does not mean they denounce the existance of God like athiesm. They just like to do their Dharma to achieve it, Dharma in simple term means duty but it is more of a philosophical word. Do your dharma and rest will follow, including God, that is all. All Indian born religions put the onus on the one's own or self and Buddhism goes one step further.

Although some claim they are athiest, they do not understand that philosophy well.

From the link you provided I also found this and explains why Buddha diddnt want his followers to believe in God to achieve their Goal of Nirvana. But he diddnt say he is athiest or advised that...

In early Buddhism, the Buddha clearly states that "reliance and belief" in creation by a supreme being leads to lack of effort and inaction:[8]

Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that...
'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation,'
I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation?"'
Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.'

Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation.'

When one falls back on creation by a supreme being as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should and shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered and unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my second righteous refutation of those priests and contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views.
_________________
If you cannot see god in all, how can you see god at all?

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:57 am Post subject:

IandonlyI wrote:

charleslemartel wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

And what is the point of this link? I did a CTRL-F on that site for word "athiest" and I could not find it.

You should have done a CTRL-F for "God" like I did

.

Any way, you have found out the relevant points

IandonlyI wrote:

So do they believe in a supreme creator God? No. So they can't be called theists. Can they be called atheists? It depends on what definition of atheism you choose to accept. But, while they cannot be called theists, they can be called atheists by at least some of the definitions.

So please, don't say

Quote:

There is a big difference guys, stop saying this lie

.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

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