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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| IoshkaFutz wrote: |
| God is not the originator of evil. |
Who - or what - then is? |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| CuteCoot wrote: |
| IoshkaFutz wrote: |
| God is not the originator of evil. |
Who - or what - then is? |
the one who does evil. Evil has no separate existence - it is an absence.
_________________
Ahmed the wife-beating bahgat moslem said:
"I said I will beat MY ILL CONDUCT WIFE if she insists on her ill conduct" |
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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Hello Diotima,
Nice to see you joining in the conversation. 
| diotima64 wrote: |
| the one who does evil. Evil has no separate existence - it is an absence. |
In that case, the evil-doer is the creator or originator of evil. I thought only God was the creator or originator of anything.
"Evil has no separate existence" ... from what?
"[Evil] is an absence" ... of what?
| Some storyteller wrote: |
| Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. |
If Satan is among the sons of God, does that not mean that God is the creator and originator of Satan? |
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Aksel, Ankersen
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Hello CC, sorry for the late reply.
| CuteCoot wrote: |
| A basic assumption of the discussion is that the "War on Terror" is in fact a war between "the West" and "Islam", between a post-Christian post-enlightenment largely secular civilization and a sector of the Islamic world that is variously called "radical Islam", "Islamism", "Jihadism", etc. Some regard Islam as virtually identical to this sector, others maintain a distinction between a larger, more encompassing entity called "Islam" and the lesser sector |
Ok, I see Islamism as a political system to be directly derived from Islam as a religious doctrine. Not all Muslims are Islamists, true, however, working for the cause of Islamism naturally demands much more in the way of time and personal sacrifice than simply following the "religious" side of Islam, therefore it is practised by fewer Muslims.
Aims of Islamism accoding to my understanding:
* To re-establish the Caliphate in the lands that were (until 1924) part of the Caliphate.
* To extend the Caliphate to all Muslim countries, in fact, to all Muslims everywhere as it would be against Islam for them to live under any other system of government.
* To expand the Caliphate indefinitely, as Islam aims for global domination.
* To implement Sharia law within the bounds of the Caliphate (which will be everywhere, ultimately).
Although I see Islam itself as the enemy, I do not see the "post-Christian post-enlightenment largely secular civilization" as our champion, I'm not an advocate of Westernization by any means. This Islam crisis is in no way a showdown between the polar opposites of the Western World and the Islamic: Rather Islam is a supremacy that is fundamentally intolerant of different religions or ideologies and the people who practice them (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Marxists etc.).
This is just my summary of the situation, I have evidence for every claim I make and will present it as we go on.
| CuteCoot wrote: |
I would like to ask that people wishing to contribute to the discussion begin by providing the following:
1. Background: A brief statement about where you're coming from. Are you a Muslim, ex-Muslim, traditional Christian, secularist, atheist, etc? |
I'm a Zoroastrian (previously atheist), but I'm not a very good one, therefore I don't claim to represent Zoroastrians. My religion teaches that evil belief systems are ruining life on Earth and that it's a primary duty for us to oppose them.
| CuteCoot wrote: |
| 2. Starting position: Where do you stand regarding the above assumption? and regarding the relationship between Islam and Islamism? |
I've stated that I agree partially with the above assumption but I feel the conflict is more multifaceted than simply the West versus Islam. I should expand this with some evidence.
To Allah belongs the Earth:
"All praises and thanks be to Allah, Who (Alone) created the heavens and the earth, and originated the darkness and the light, yet those who disbelieve (kafaroo) hold others as equal with their Lord" al-Anam verse 1
"And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone)." adh-Dhariyat verse 1
Ok, most religions agree God is beyond equal, should be praised for the act of Creation, and that ri has a purpose for human beings. Islam makes a twofold claim: 1) A unique degree of gnosis and purity of message, i.e. that the Koran is the literal word of God and Muhammad the final messenger 2) That anyone who denies the divinity of the Koran and the prophecy of Muhammad is a kafir. This naturally - and this is a clear cut problem, before we go any deeper - makes Islam more exclusionist and given to close minded thinking.
Evidence from the Koran:
"No one could have composed this Quran besides God. This confirms the existing Book (the Bible) and explains itself. There is no doubt that it is from the Lord of the Universe.
Do they say that Muhammad has invented it? (Muhammad), tell them, "If your claim is true, compose only one chapter like it and call on anyone besides God for help.
They call a lie something that is beyond the limit of their knowledge and whose interpretation has not yet been revealed. Some people who lived before them also called Our revelations lies. Consider how terrible was the end of the unjust people!" Yunus verses 37-9
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your males. He is the Messenger of God and the last Prophet (Khatim-an-Nabiyyin). God has the knowledge of all things." al-Azhab verse 40
Sorry, I have to jump ahead to your next post, where you explain your vision:
| CuteCoot wrote: |
I see Christianity as a distillation of ideas coming out of Judaism (and with a lot extra mixed in as well). The emphasis lay on the divine qualities of humility and self-sacrifice.
I see Islam as a gathering together of elements left behind in Judaism (or de-emphasized) by Christianity. One Koranic verse sums that up:
| Koran 42:40-41, Pickthall wrote: |
| The guerdon of an ill-deed is an ill the like thereof. But whosoever pardoneth and amendeth, his wage is the affair of Allah. Lo! He loveth not wrong-doers. And whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong - for such, there is no way (of blame) against them. |
I see this verse as stating the Judaic viewpoint on justice, then advocating the Christian conciliatory approach, followed by divine sanction for defending oneself against further suffering.
Symbolically, my vision accords with the idea of a "New Jerusalem", that is, a reconstruction of the original wholeness that was Judaism. It isn't the same as the original but a synthesis combining two split-off elements born from the original. A kind of reconciliation of the Cain and Abel brothers rather than a killing by one of the other.
How would this "New Jerusalem" look? It would contain at least three elements:
1) an acknowledgement of and respect for the original wisdom in Judaism;
2) a proper embrace of Christianity by Muslims, starting with a recognition of the theological value of the New Testament;
3) a proper embrace of Islam by Christians, starting with a recognition that they have historically behaved in an assertive imperialist and often very cruel manner more characteristic of the Anti-Christ or Satan that they project onto Mohammad. |
Muslims tend to see Muhammad's prophecy as supplanting whatever came before it. Yes, Jews and Christians are (according to Islam) kitabi who previously had scriptures from God, but if they reject Muhammad and Koran as the final and most authoritative message they simply become kafir.
"Those who say that Jesus, the son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, "Worship God, my Lord and yours. God will deprive anyone who considers anything equal to God of Paradise and his dwelling will be fire. The unjust people have no helpers."
Those who say that God is the third of the Three, have, in fact, turned to disbelief. There is no Lord but God, the only One Lord. If they will not give-up such belief, the disbelievers among them will suffer a painful torment." al-Ma'idah verses 72-73
"And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" at-Taubah verse 1
"Have you seen how those who had been given a share of the Book believe in idols and Satan and who say, "The disbelievers are better guided than the believers".
God has condemned them. No one can help one who has been condemned by God." an-Nisa verses 51-52
"Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikoon will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures." al-Baiyinah verse 6
The Koran displays a manifestly disrespectful and offensive attitude toward the other two Abrahamic religions, on top of its hostility to pagans and atheists. This is reinforced by the hadith:
لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه
(Muhammad SAW said) "Do not first salute the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any in the road, force them to it's narrowest alley" Sahih Muslim, recorded from Abu Hurayrah
Before we even get to the violent parts of the Koran, the mood is set for contemptous disdain toward non-Muslims in general including Jews and Christians specifically. No dialogue is possible without respect.
| CuteCoot wrote: |
| 3. Vision: What is your vision for the future? Do you see a world without Islam at all? Do you see a world dominated solely by Islam? or by Christianity? or by post-Christian enlightenment values? Or do you see some new synthesis emerging that is none of these? If so, how would it look to you? |
I don't like to predict the future, it's not for any of us to know. I do agree with Sum's prediction that civil war will break out around the world by Islamists fighting to bring about Islamic government, as we already see in Kashmir, Phillipines, South Thailand etc. It's only a matter of time.
The Koran makes it clear that Islam is destined to rule the world, and gives the green light for this to be acheived through violence.
"Verily, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend it; but in the end it will become an anguish for them. Then they will be overcomed. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto Hell.
In order that Allah may distinguish the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) from the good (believers of Islamic Monotheism and doers of righteous deeds), and put the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) one on another, heap them together and cast them into Hell. Those! it is they who are the losers.
Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone (in the whole of the world). But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." al-Anfal verses 36-39
"Fight those people of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, do not refrain from what has been prohibited by Allah and His Messenger and do not embrace the religion of truth (Al-Islam), until they pay Jizya (protection tax) with their own hands and feel themselves subdued.
The Jews say: "Uzair (Azra) is the son of Allah," and the Christians say: " Messiah (Christ) is the son of Allah." That is what they say with their mouths, imitating the sayings of the former unbelievers. May Allah destroy them! How perverted they are!
They (Jews and Christians) have taken their rabbis and priests to be their Lords beside Allah and so they did with Messiah (Jesus), the son of Mary, although they were commanded to worship none but One Ilah (Allah); besides Whom there is none worthy of worship. Exalted be He above those whom they associate with Him
They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah seeks to perfect His light even though the disbelievers may dislike it
It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and true Deen (faith) to make it prevail over all other deens (faiths) even though the pagans may hate it " at-Taubah verse 29-33
(Translations by Dr Muhammad Hilali & Dr Muhammad Khan and Muhammad Farooq-i-Azam Malik, bracketed comments from the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir)
_________________
"your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime"
-Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam |
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Val Era
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| CuteCoot wrote: |
| In that case, the evil-doer is the creator or originator of evil. I thought only God was the creator or originator of anything. |
Evil is not a thing; it doesn't have being. In other words, Evil does not have ontological status. It's a word we use to describe where something is missing.
Take for example shadows. Shadows don't exist in the sense that they are something, shadows are rather where light is not.
| Quote: |
"Evil has no separate existence" ... from what?
"[Evil] is an absence" ... of what? |
Evil is not a thing that was created, but rather evil is a word that discribes the absence of Goodness.
So from a Christian standpoint, Evil is not something that needed to be created. God created a world in which there was complete Goodness, but the free will of humans was used in such a way to extenuate Goodness in the world. That vacancy of Goodness, or that void is what is identified as Evil. |
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sum
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hello CuteCoot
Your quote -
People who "are causing destruction, arson etc and show no signs of being peaceful" get dealt with by the police. You were writing about a civil war between Muslims and non-Muslims. (Though "civil unrest" would be the more appropriate term as I doubt that formal sides with respective armies would emerge - or is that what you *are* envisaging?) Presumably the members of each side would shoot to kill the members of the other side, as happens in war. And since, from the standpoint of your side, the members of the other side are Muslims, please explain to me how you are *not* intent on killing certain people "just because they are muslims".
In particular, please explain clearly which "Muslims" would be acceptable as targets during the killing spree? Here is a list for you to consider and respond to:
1. A person shouting "God is great" while wielding an axe among people in a shopping centre.
2. A woman nearby in full niqab who is acting suspiciously.
3. A man with a beard standing on a soap box shouting out verses of the Koran interspersed with "we must kill the kafir".
4. A woman with headscarf pushing a pram-stroller holding twin toddlers and a baby, with a further two pre-school children attached to her via straps.
5. A man selling books in an Islamic bookshop which conatins many copies of the Koran and sets of ahadith.
6. A crowd of people attending Friday prayers at a mosque.
7. A woman with a short spikey haircut whom you meet at a cocktail party and who tells you she is a devout Muslim and a Lesbian.
8. A stout taxi cab driver who rants about the Islamists who have taken over his religion.
9. An unkempt street dweller twirling around in the park repeating "Allah-Hu!" again and again as he spins.
10. A Saudi prince on a shopping spree at Harrods.
None of the above is applicable to what I wrote.
I am not going to dwell on Islamist or Islam and shades in between. I would like to ask you if muslims can reject Allah`s sharia and prefer secular democracy? It does not matter whether they are "radicals" or "militants" as it is the ultimate aim of the muslims that matters. Some would prefer violent action now whereas others would prefer to fight until all religion is for Allah by breeding, finance, political means etc. They may not be violent but they still want to overthrow the indigenous religion and culture and impose sharia with Islamic dominance for all time.
Do you consider it possible for a muslim to not want sharia and prefer secular government? I would say that were nolonger muslims and following a different religion.
What do you think?
sum |
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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hello AA, nice to see you joining the conversation.
| Aksel, Ankersen wrote: |
| ... working for the cause of Islamism naturally demands much more in the way of time and personal sacrifice than simply following the "religious" side of Islam ... |
You might like to tell that to students at the Imam Husain Islamic Centre here in Sydney. Those students enrolled in the Practical Irfan (Islamic Mysticism) program are taken through 100 stations in 10 stages as part of "a lifetime endeavour to reach the peak of Monotheism in order to witness God".
Islamic Mysticism (‘Irfan) in less than 500 words
Islamic Studies
Books and Articles
Living in Harmony - Islamic Perspective [This last is directed at Muslim students and shows how a non-Islamist perspective can be taught.]
| AA wrote: |
| Aims of Islamism accoding to my understanding: |
My own understanding accords with yours.
| AA wrote: |
| Not all Muslims are Islamists [...] I see Islam itself as the enemy [...] |
This appears to be a commonly held view on this board. I don't agree with it - indeed I see a logical inconsistency in your statements - but I have spent enough time arguing over this point and feel that there is little option but to agree to disagree on this one.
I also have to say - to you and to anyone else reading this thread - that there seems to me to be little point in discussing a synthesis or philosophical integration between "non-Islam" (or more narrowly "the West") and Islamism since no one - including and especially myself - sees this as possible. Unless Islam is viewed as larger than Islamism, unless non-Islamist and anti-Islamist Muslims are acknowledged and respected as genuine Muslims, then I see no fruitful direction that this discussion can take.
It is intriguing, for sure, to have a Zoroastrian join the discussion but if Islam=Islamism for you, AA, then there is really nothing further for us to discuss. |
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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Val Era wrote: |
| Evil is not a thing that was created, but rather evil is a word that discribes the absence of Goodness. |
Goodness is not a thing either. |
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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| sum wrote: |
| Do you consider it possible for a muslim to not want sharia and prefer secular government? I would say that were nolonger muslims and following a different religion. |
I will simply repeat and emphasize here what I wrote to AA above:
Unless Islam is viewed as larger than Islamism, unless non-Islamist and anti-Islamist Muslims are respected as genuine Muslims, then I see no fruitful direction that this discussion can take. |
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Val Era
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| CuteCoot wrote: |
| Goodness is not a thing either. |
Yes it is. Central to the idea of Goodness and Evil is the notion of being. God as the foundation of being is perfectly good, along with everything He brought into being.
I presume that there is a point to all this? |
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The Cat
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 4357
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| CuteCoot wrote: |
Unless Islam is viewed as larger than Islamism, unless non-Islamist and anti-Islamist Muslims are acknowledged and respected as genuine Muslims, then I see no fruitful direction that this discussion can take.
It is intriguing, for sure, to have a Zoroastrian join the discussion but if Islam=Islamism for you, AA, then there is really nothing further for us to discuss. |
Islam is wider then let say Wahhabism, for sure, but that's because many are not professing Islam correctly. Non-Islamist and anti-Islamist Muslims aren't genuine Muslims, according to the overwhelming Sunni orthodoxy. They are Mushrikoons (disbelievers) by all means. The problem with Islam is the Quran itself.
Islam cannot be reformed so long as it relies on the Quran and the Hadiths, but can it be tampered? I have to say: yes... a certain while, because we've got some examples from Turkey or Tunisia. Then again, see what's happening in nearby Iran or Algeria. If we rely on history to make a point, we can see that Islamism -always- crushed divergent Muslims at the end. So it's not engaging...
I have my own way to counter Islam: to bring -history- into the Quran! It's being done extensively nowadays by scholars like Christoph Luxenberg, Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Joseph Schacht, Ibn Warraq and Patricia Crone. History is our more promising horizon: without a Holy book coming directly from heaven, Islam has no more ground!
_________________
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity. |
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Val Era
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| CuteCoot wrote: |
| AA wrote: |
| Not all Muslims are Islamists [...] I see Islam itself as the enemy [...] |
This appears to be a commonly held view on this board. I don't agree with it - indeed I see a logical inconsistency in your statements - but I have spent enough time arguing over this point and feel that there is little option but to agree to disagree on this one. |
I don't understand. If you see a logical inconsistency in equating Islam to the deeply ingrained elements in Islamic doctrine (i.e. Jihad warfare), then please do not withhold it from us. I told you in advance that you would encounter fierce opposition to the notion of an Islamo-Christian synthesis, where you replied that opposing views are essential to the discussion. It now appears that you are not so eager to entertain these opposing views. |
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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Val Era wrote: |
| I presume that there is a point to all this? |
At this stage, I would say there was not. |
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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| The Cat wrote: |
| Non-Islamist and anti-Islamist Muslims aren't genuine Muslims, according to the overwhelming Sunni orthodoxy. |
I wasn't intending to have a conversation with the overwhelming Sunni orthodoxy. The only thing that concerns me is whether you yourself accept such Muslims as Muslims. |
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CuteCoot
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 423
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Val Era wrote: |
| If you see a logical inconsistency in equating Islam to the deeply ingrained elements in Islamic doctrine (i.e. Jihad warfare), then please do not withhold it from us. |
I did not say that. I saw a logical inconsistency in The Cat's quote.
| Quote: |
| I told you in advance that you would encounter fierce opposition to the notion of an Islamo-Christian synthesis, where you replied that opposing views are essential to the discussion. It now appears that you are not so eager to entertain these opposing views. |
I was interested in opposing or alternative views regarding an Islamo-Christian synthesis. However, the conversation has become bogged down. I see Islam as larger than Islamism. Everyone else here sees Islam as nothing other than Islamism. This has been argued back and forth ad nauseam until we now have no option but to agree to disagree.
As I see it, this conversation has come to the following conclusion:
1. I see Islam as larger than Islamism. That is: Islam - Islamism = non-void.
2. Everyone else sees Islam as identical to Islamism. That is: Islam -Islamism = void.
3. I cannot see any possibility of a synthesis or integration between Islamism and the Christian West (or non-Islam).
4. I am happy myself to entertain the possibility of an Islamo-Christian synthesis because, for me, it would be between a non-void and what we live in now.
5. I can fully see how such a synthesis makes no sense to people who see a void on the "Islam-minus-Islamism" side of things.
6. Whether Islam-minus-Islamism is or is not a void has been discussed at length on another thread and ad nauseam on this one. There seems no point in discussing it further. There is no option but to agree to disagree.
I believe this conversation is over.
Thank you to everyone for taking part in it. |
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